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Post by konradsmith on Jul 21, 2016 4:16:19 GMT -5
Ned did try to stand up to Robert about killing Lady though... All-too briefly. Lawful good fellers lawful die. Ned done fucked up.
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2016 9:13:03 GMT -5
Ned did try to stand up to Robert about killing Lady though... All-too briefly. Lawful good fellers lawful die. Ned done fucked up. It's the complications of this whole situation that make the scene so brilliant. Complications are everywhere. For example: I disliked the scene where Cat cruelly tells Jon to leave while saying good-bye to Bran but I love Catelyn as a character because of that complication. Ned's acceptance of Robert's demand to kill Lady seemed shitty - but it too was complicated. Things were tense with the Lannisters from the moment they rode into Winterfell. In Jaime's eyes, Ned should thank him for killing the Mad King since his brother and father were killed by him first, but as you say ... Lawful good is a tricky position to play with a story so full of contradictions and gray areas. Sansa was just a pie-eyed teenage girl with a massive crush on Joffrey. She had no idea how horrible he was (yet) and so she tried to play that moment in a way that wouldn't throw either side under the bus. Arya being Arya attacking her just reconfirmed to the adults that obviously she's wild and out of control so it must have been her fault. Arya displayed a lot of control actually... she could have killed Joffrey in that moment, he pleaded for his life like a whimpering baby. But instead she threw his sword in the river. She acted far more mature in that moment than either Joffrey or Sansa did and then echoed by their parents who stubbornly stuck to their idiot adult-like morals and demands.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 21, 2016 10:04:50 GMT -5
^^ Yes, exactly!
Sansa tries to be diplomatic just like her father, but Arya always runs on pure emotion. It's what will bring her to Braavos in the future. She is the wild direwolf, the unpredictable element in the story. For her family's sake she will try and act a dutiful daughter, but she will always fight for the weaker side.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 21, 2016 18:06:32 GMT -5
Finally watched the episode, it was very good of course and a bit better than the first episode. It was of course excellent to see Tyrion slapping Joffrey, I had already moved on from Joffrey after his death but it's good to be reminded what an awful human being he was. Also, you can see that Peter calibrated his portrayal of Tyrion, much more subdued, much subtle which is why i like him so much more on the show than on the books. Jon's goodbye's were a bit emotional, I didn't cry but it was still sad to see him say goober to Arya, Robb and Bran, notoriously missing of course were Sansa and Rickon. And of course we all know how that goes. I know we are all waiting for the Jon /Arya reunion but I don't know, I don't think it'll be the way we hope it'll be. Which makes me sad. I absolutely hated what happened at the inn, fucking Joffrey. But I'm also reminded why I didn't like Sansa at the beginning. I get in a way why she didn't want to tell the truth, she fancied herself in love and all that but it does come off as disloyal to her family. I liked the scenes with Dany, especially with Jorah, the beginning of their friendship. Also, it was nice to see how Dany begins to take charge of her life by empowering herself. This of course will become very important in the future. Envie will you be doing a foreshadowing and symbolism thread?
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Post by dje on Jul 21, 2016 21:40:34 GMT -5
This was a great second episode, it really starts to lay down the foundation for the war to come between Stark and Lannister. We get our first early clues of R+L=J, when Ned refuses to talk of Jon's mother, and his reluctance to kill Dany. Also, when he tells Robert "You can't get your hands on this one, can you", he could have been referring to Jon as well, since he is now on his way to the wall. My favorite scene of the episode is between Jon and Jaime, their only meeting thus far. I actually have the image of them shaking hands as my wall paper on my computer. Also, I really like how we start to see how important the wolves are with Bran waking up at Lady's death, great episode!
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2016 23:36:58 GMT -5
moiaf - yes, I'm going to do the symbolism/foreshadowing for this episode tomorrow (Friday) which is a bit later than I'd like to do them but work kicked my butt today and there's only three days between the Wed and Saturday episodes for re-watch which means I have to get quicker at them! Most of all this time I'm trying to condense it into one post. If you have things you want to include in it, be sure to post them here or message me and I'll add them, or you can even start the thread yourself and I'll add onto it. This was a great second episode, it really starts to lay down the foundation for the war to come between Stark and Lannister. We get our first early clues of R+L=J, when Ned refuses to talk of Jon's mother, and his reluctance to kill Dany. Also, when he tells Robert "You can't get your hands on this one, can you", he could have been referring to Jon as well, since he is now on his way to the wall. My favorite scene of the episode is between Jon and Jaime, their only meeting thus far. I actually have the image of them shaking hands as my wall paper on my computer. Also, I really like how we start to see how important the wolves are with Bran waking up at Lady's death, great episode!Highlighted this part because it's in my notes for the symbolism/foreshadowing but I actually am not really sure what it means. Is Bran more connected to the direwolves than the others because of his warg status? Why do you suppose it triggered him waking up or was it just coincidence? I don't think they'd have filmed the timing like that if it was just coincidence. But what does it mean? That was never explained after he woke up was it?
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Post by dje on Jul 22, 2016 6:41:08 GMT -5
moiaf - yes, I'm going to do the symbolism/foreshadowing for this episode tomorrow (Friday) which is a bit later than I'd like to do them but work kicked my butt today and there's only three days between the Wed and Saturday episodes for re-watch which means I have to get quicker at them! Most of all this time I'm trying to condense it into one post. If you have things you want to include in it, be sure to post them here or message me and I'll add them, or you can even start the thread yourself and I'll add onto it. This was a great second episode, it really starts to lay down the foundation for the war to come between Stark and Lannister. We get our first early clues of R+L=J, when Ned refuses to talk of Jon's mother, and his reluctance to kill Dany. Also, when he tells Robert "You can't get your hands on this one, can you", he could have been referring to Jon as well, since he is now on his way to the wall. My favorite scene of the episode is between Jon and Jaime, their only meeting thus far. I actually have the image of them shaking hands as my wall paper on my computer. Also, I really like how we start to see how important the wolves are with Bran waking up at Lady's death, great episode!Highlighted this part because it's in my notes for the symbolism/foreshadowing but I actually am not really sure what it means. Is Bran more connected to the direwolves than the others because of his warg status? Why do you suppose it triggered him waking up or was it just coincidence? I don't think they'd have filmed the timing like that if it was just coincidence. But what does it mean? That was never explained after he woke up was it? I think the Starks connection ot the wolves are played up alot more in the books, as each wolf takes on their counterparts personality and demeanor. Also, in the book, all of the Starks have warged their wolf except Sansa, due to Lady's untimely death, and Rickon, although I suppose he could have done it offscreeen, er, page. As for your question, I think it isn't a coincidence, I feel like it foreshadows Bran powers, albeit, in a small sampling.
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 22, 2016 11:02:04 GMT -5
moiaf - yes, I'm going to do the symbolism/foreshadowing for this episode tomorrow (Friday) which is a bit later than I'd like to do them but work kicked my butt today and there's only three days between the Wed and Saturday episodes for re-watch which means I have to get quicker at them! Most of all this time I'm trying to condense it into one post. If you have things you want to include in it, be sure to post them here or message me and I'll add them, or you can even start the thread yourself and I'll add onto it. This was a great second episode, it really starts to lay down the foundation for the war to come between Stark and Lannister. We get our first early clues of R+L=J, when Ned refuses to talk of Jon's mother, and his reluctance to kill Dany. Also, when he tells Robert "You can't get your hands on this one, can you", he could have been referring to Jon as well, since he is now on his way to the wall. My favorite scene of the episode is between Jon and Jaime, their only meeting thus far. I actually have the image of them shaking hands as my wall paper on my computer. Also, I really like how we start to see how important the wolves are with Bran waking up at Lady's death, great episode!Highlighted this part because it's in my notes for the symbolism/foreshadowing but I actually am not really sure what it means. Is Bran more connected to the direwolves than the others because of his warg status? Why do you suppose it triggered him waking up or was it just coincidence? I don't think they'd have filmed the timing like that if it was just coincidence. But what does it mean? That was never explained after he woke up was it? It could've been because he was dreaming through Summer at the time, and he sensed it? At least that's my take on it, subconsciously entering Summer's mind already.
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Post by Envie on Jul 22, 2016 11:09:39 GMT -5
I think the Starks connection ot the wolves are played up alot more in the books, as each wolf takes on their counterparts personality and demeanor. Also, in the book, all of the Starks have warged their wolf except Sansa, due to Lady's untimely death, and Rickon, although I suppose he could have done it offscreeen, er, page. As for your question, I think it isn't a coincidence, I feel like it foreshadows Bran powers, albeit, in a small sampling. It's true they really have downplayed that spirit-animal connection on the show so it's a lot less obvious. I always thought they isolated warging to Bran only as a way to make him specifically special of all the Starks (even though I disagree) and that anything focusing on him would have a more mystical feel. I would really have preferred in that scene... just when Ned is about to kill Lady, we get glimpses of a wolf running through a forest (through Bran's eyes) and then cut to him waking up. That would have explained much more clearly how he had been running with his wolf and sensed the death of Lady. It could've been because he was dreaming through Summer at the time, and he sensed it? At least that's my take on it, subconsciously entering Summer's mind already. Yes! This is what I meant above ... dreaming through Summer while warging Summer, even subconsciously. Maybe Summer was protecting him that way, encouraging him to 'run with him' so-to-speak while his body healed. I guess we'll just have to use that as our head-cannon since the show writers have never explained it.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 24, 2016 23:20:41 GMT -5
I think the Starks connection ot the wolves are played up alot more in the books, as each wolf takes on their counterparts personality and demeanor. Also, in the book, all of the Starks have warged their wolf except Sansa, due to Lady's untimely death, and Rickon, although I suppose he could have done it offscreeen, er, page. As for your question, I think it isn't a coincidence, I feel like it foreshadows Bran powers, albeit, in a small sampling. It's true they really have downplayed that spirit-animal connection on the show so it's a lot less obvious. I always thought they isolated warging to Bran only as a way to make him specifically special of all the Starks (even though I disagree) and that anything focusing on him would have a more mystical feel. I would really have preferred in that scene... just when Ned is about to kill Lady, we get glimpses of a wolf running through a forest (through Bran's eyes) and then cut to him waking up. That would have explained much more clearly how he had been running with his wolf and sensed the death of Lady. It could've been because he was dreaming through Summer at the time, and he sensed it? At least that's my take on it, subconsciously entering Summer's mind already. Yes! This is what I meant above ... dreaming through Summer while warging Summer, even subconsciously. Maybe Summer was protecting him that way, encouraging him to 'run with him' so-to-speak while his body healed. I guess we'll just have to use that as our head-cannon since the show writers have never explained it. Actually, my first thought was MMD and "Only death can pay for life." Lady died to give Bran a new life.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 0:18:13 GMT -5
It's true they really have downplayed that spirit-animal connection on the show so it's a lot less obvious. I always thought they isolated warging to Bran only as a way to make him specifically special of all the Starks (even though I disagree) and that anything focusing on him would have a more mystical feel. I would really have preferred in that scene... just when Ned is about to kill Lady, we get glimpses of a wolf running through a forest (through Bran's eyes) and then cut to him waking up. That would have explained much more clearly how he had been running with his wolf and sensed the death of Lady. Yes! This is what I meant above ... dreaming through Summer while warging Summer, even subconsciously. Maybe Summer was protecting him that way, encouraging him to 'run with him' so-to-speak while his body healed. I guess we'll just have to use that as our head-cannon since the show writers have never explained it. Actually, my first thought was MMD and "Only death can pay for life." Lady died to give Bran a new life. I used to think that too, but now with Mel bringing Jon back without a sacrifice, who the hell knows?
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Post by Envie on Jul 25, 2016 6:44:55 GMT -5
Actually, my first thought was MMD and "Only death can pay for life." Lady died to give Bran a new life. I used to think that too, but now with Mel bringing Jon back without a sacrifice, who the hell knows? I had always hoped there would be some sort of explanation for it (maybe still to come) such as delayed power from sacrificing Shireen since no one else seemed to benefit from her death. I'm wondering if they are just leaving these things open ended and ambiguous on purpose until George can finish the next book? Bran waking up at the end of this episode was done so quietly, and we didn't really get any discussion about it afterwards in episode 3 except Jon receives a raven message at the wall. They panned the whole thing even by his parents.
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Post by izzue on Jul 25, 2016 12:13:20 GMT -5
Better late than never, I hope . . . Amazed at how much crucial development is packed into this one episode. I love what laurya said about this being the episode when we fell in love with Arya - truth! Also the episode when I fell deeply in love with the direwolves. As sentient and intuitive a being as Lady was, she had to sense what was coming when Ned went to her, but even when he pulled out his knife, she was . . . docile isn’t the word really, maybe just accepting -- she could have ripped him to shreds in a heartbeat. Bran’s awakening at the moment Lady was killed shows so clearly the centric relationship between the direwolves and the Starks. We know from the books that Bran awakens immediately following his dream, wherein he sees what is happening elsewhere in Westeros, e.g. Catelyn and Ser Rodrik sailing to KL, but also what lies “north and north and north” beyond the wall, which fills him with fear and to which the crow replies, “Now you see, now you see why you must live.” I like the idea that Bran sees the event through Summer’s eyes, but I also think that he awakes because it’s the beginning of what’s coming, the "why he must live" that begins to be played out. Damage has been done to the Starks from the moment the Lannisters arrived at Winterfell, but this is the first death that results . . . sadly, the first of many. What forewarning Ilyn Payne serves in this episode! Sansa’s fright of him involves her intuition as much as it does his appearance, I believe. Ned’s forbidding Payne to execute Lady, “She’s of the North, she deserves better than a butcher.” The butcher that would execute Ned. The expressions on Cersei and Joff’s faces during all of this, such sharp characterizations that we come to know all too well. So many other omens in this episode . . . When Tyrion slaps Joffrey, “The prince will remember that, little lord.” Jaime’s comment to Tyrion, “Sometimes, brother, I wonder whose side you’re on.” Jaime’s derisive ridicule of Jon’s joining the NW (I’d forgotten how much I hated Jaime then), together with Tyrion’s less derisive but more pointed and realistic preview of it. The clash between Robert and Ned with the references to Jon’s mother, Rhaegar and Lyanna, the Targaryens, and Robert’s adamance that what’s needed “is a knife and a bold man to wield it”, in this same episode where "a knife and a bold man to wield it” ends up in Bran’s bedroom - just the interweaving of threads, themes, and symbols that I think was so well done in this episode. There’s Jon’s goodbye to Bran, telling him that when he comes to visit Jon at the Wall, “We can go out walking beyond the wall if you’re not afraid.” And then there’s Jon’s, “Is my mother alive? Does she know where I am, where I’m going? Does she even care?” In the Dothraki scenes it’s the eggs, always the shots of the eggs. (And I love to see Dany getting stronger, more attuned to things beyond the world she has known, which will ultimately lead to her knowing what to do with those eggs, and with her journey from this point on.) Loving the re-watch….now if only I could keep up with the schedule!
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Post by Envie on Jul 25, 2016 12:36:03 GMT -5
Loved your analysis izzue! Hope you'll join us for 1x03 too - it could use some love as most of us found it much less inspiring. Also, be sure you check out my 1x02 symbolism and foreshadowing essay: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/168/episode-1x02-foreshadowing-symbolismYou came up with some great bits of foreshadowing I hadn't considered such as Ilyn Payne frightening Sansa as well as all the obvious derision that was displayed from the Lannisters about the Night's Watch. They are a good representation of the spoiled and arrogant Nobles who live south and have never had to fear winter or things beyond the wall. It will take six long seasons before the reality of that actual threat starts to push its way southward and even now, we don't know how long it will take winter to move into these lands that are so comfortably scathing back in Season 1.
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Post by izzue on Jul 25, 2016 12:41:47 GMT -5
Envie, thank you! I appreciate your comments and look forward to reading your essay . . . and also look forward to catching up and keeping up, .
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