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Post by dragonbringer on Jul 15, 2016 2:19:10 GMT -5
In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks. The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules GRRM www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?tag=westeros-21&ie=UTF8&docId=49161Its not the first time he has compared dany with aragorn ..he also did that when talking about her meereen arc and what he intended to do and explore Aragon's tax policy such that .. I think this comparison to sword is another point in dragons being light bringer |
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Post by moiaf on Jul 15, 2016 6:37:19 GMT -5
In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks. The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules GRRM www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?tag=westeros-21&ie=UTF8&docId=49161Its not the first time he has compared dany with aragorn ..he also did that when talking about her meereen arc and what he intended to do and explore Aragon's tax policy such that .. I think this comparison to sword is another point in dragons being light bringer Well, I do believe that the dragons are LIghtbringer and I'll post the books clues below. I don't rule out though that we might actually see a real sword. I do think that Dany and Jon are both TPTWP/AAR so they'll have their own tools. Do you have a link to where GRRM talks about Aragon during the discussion about Meereen? |
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Post by dragonbringer on Jul 15, 2016 10:29:03 GMT -5
In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks. The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules GRRM www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?tag=westeros-21&ie=UTF8&docId=49161Its not the first time he has compared dany with aragorn ..he also did that when talking about her meereen arc and what he intended to do and explore Aragon's tax policy such that .. I think this comparison to sword is another point in dragons being light bringer Well, I do believe that the dragons are LIghtbringer and I'll post the books clues below. I don't rule out though that we might actually see a real sword. I do think that Dany and Jon are both TPTWP/AAR so they'll have their own tools. Do you have a link to where GRRM talks about Aragon during the discussion about Meereen? I think that this quotes from the tale and astopor puts whole argument to the rest and dany's dragons are lighybringer and dany is indeed AAr .. It shame that these quote is never brought most of the times..iam afraid most of the people don't know about this..And I do belive its our job to preach it |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 14:53:33 GMT -5
I strongly support the theory that equates the Dragons to Lightbringer.
First because it makes a lot of sense from a pratical perspective, what good is a single sword going to do?
I know that magic swords able to truly solve all kind problems abounds in Fantasy but ASoiaF doesn't seem a story where such devices would be employed.
I am not very familiar with Tolkien and Aragorn so I cannot draw parallels here.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 27, 2016 18:57:03 GMT -5
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Post by leonardo on Aug 5, 2016 2:19:33 GMT -5
A great interview and enlightening. To be fair though I think the end of the series will prove prophecy is a fair bit of guesswork. There will be things that don't add up or are misinterpreted.
Good topics on light bringer though as they lend to my way of thinking that things are not always clear or literal
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 7:23:33 GMT -5
From my perspective the issue with prophecy being misinterpreted has been explored in length in the current books.
Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophecy at every turns and so did Maester Aemon, until he had an epiphany on his dying bed when he realized that a Dragon has no gender and thus other possibilities opened in front of him.
Melissandre is another case. She wanted her truth to be true that she manipulated reality, see fake Lightbringer. And I have no doubt about her intentions being "pure", she wasn't trying to deceive anyone. She truly believed.
Cersei's prophecy turned to be accurate. Every words. Except for the identity of the younger Queen that will stole everything from her, her identity has yet to revealed but that is only because the books have not reached that point yet.
Then there is Quaithe, although maybe she just speaks in riddles and has given no prophecy.
The HotU is another case of riddled prophecy. Now what happened there is shrouded in mystery. However there is a wonderful thread about the HotU's happenings.
The Dragon as Lightbringer seems quite clever to me, their manner of killing matches the description of how AA's Lightbringer performed a kill as per the Jade Compendium.
And to me they being key to victory seems very more plausible than a single flaming sword, which is why I support this theory.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 12, 2016 7:34:30 GMT -5
From my perspective the issue with prophecy being misinterpreted has been explored in length in the current books. Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophecy at every turns and so did Maester Aemon, until he had an epiphany on his dying bed when he realized that a Dragon has no gender and thus other possibilities opened in front of him. Melissandre is another case. She wanted her truth to be true that she manipulated reality, see fake Lightbringer. And I have no doubt about her intentions being "pure", she wasn't trying to deceive anyone. She truly believed. Cersei's prophecy turned to be accurate. Every words. Except for the identity of the younger Queen that will stole everything from her, her identity has yet to revealed but that is only because the books have not reached that point yet. Then there Quaithe, although maybe she just speaks in riddles and has given no prophecy. The HotU is another case of riddled prophecy. Now what happened there that is shrouded in mystery. However there is a wonderful thread about the HotU's happenings. The Dragon as Lightbringer seems quite clever to me, their manner of killing matches the description of how AA's Lightbringer performed a kill as per the Jade Compendium. And to me they being key to victory seems very more plausible than a single flaming sword, which is why I support this theory. Prophecies are weird in GRRM's world because as you mention they are easy to misinterpret due to the persons own personal bias. At times they can be literal to an extent especially with Cersei and to small extent the Ghost of High Heart. Then as you mention you have Mel who tries and wants to be right about these prophecies but her own personal biases don't allow her to see things are they are and not how she wishes them to be. But I think the general theme when it comes to prophecies in ASOIAF is that those who try to make them happen or actively avoid them, make things worse. Cersei tries to avoid her prophecy yet all her actions let to the prophecy being fulfilled. For Rhaegar it seems from what we know hat he was trying to recreate the Three Heads of the Dragons, his actions in doing this where the spark that led t Robert's Rebellion and almost the extermination of his family. The irony is that it'll not be his son Aegon but his sister who will probably lead that trifecta. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 9:25:42 GMT -5
From my perspective the issue with prophecy being misinterpreted has been explored in length in the current books. Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophecy at every turns and so did Maester Aemon, until he had an epiphany on his dying bed when he realized that a Dragon has no gender and thus other possibilities opened in front of him. Melissandre is another case. She wanted her truth to be true that she manipulated reality, see fake Lightbringer. And I have no doubt about her intentions being "pure", she wasn't trying to deceive anyone. She truly believed. Cersei's prophecy turned to be accurate. Every words. Except for the identity of the younger Queen that will stole everything from her, her identity has yet to revealed but that is only because the books have not reached that point yet. Then there Quaithe, although maybe she just speaks in riddles and has given no prophecy. The HotU is another case of riddled prophecy. Now what happened there that is shrouded in mystery. However there is a wonderful thread about the HotU's happenings. The Dragon as Lightbringer seems quite clever to me, their manner of killing matches the description of how AA's Lightbringer performed a kill as per the Jade Compendium. And to me they being key to victory seems very more plausible than a single flaming sword, which is why I support this theory. Prophecies are weird in GRRM's world because as you mention they are easy to misinterpret due to the persons own personal bias. At times they can be literal to an extent especially with Cersei and to small extent the Ghost of High Heart. Then as you mention you have Mel who tries and wants to be right about these prophecies but her own personal biases don't allow her to see things are they are and not how she wishes them to be. But I think the general theme when it comes to prophecies in ASOIAF is that those who try to make them happen or actively avoid them, make things worse. Cersei tries to avoid her prophecy yet all her actions let to the prophecy being fulfilled. For Rhaegar it seems from what we know hat he was trying to recreate the Three Heads of the Dragons, his actions in doing this where the spark that led t Robert's Rebellion and almost the extermination of his family. The irony is that it'll not be his son Aegon but his sister who will probably lead that trifecta. I noticed many readers do the same as the characters, myself included, we try to unravel everything and as much as we may try to remain objective, our personal biases guide us. I, as a strong Daenerys supporter have the tendency to always put her in the center of everything, although it would be quite difficult not to considered her character. Yet I've read people discarding her completely as if she wasn't in the book at all. I became quite protective of her because of this. Back to your post, the way prophecies seems to outplay those aware of it is quite interesting and true. Maybe complete unawareness is needed, so that one would not try to interpret and act a prophecy out. If that is the case then Daenerys is quite the candidate as she fulfilled the prophecy when the it hadn't been disclosed yet, not even to the readers. It all, somehow, reminds me of a beatiful discussion I read on this forum about Natural Magic VS Ritual Magic. |
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Post by moiaf on Aug 15, 2016 11:49:10 GMT -5
Prophecies are weird in GRRM's world because as you mention they are easy to misinterpret due to the persons own personal bias. At times they can be literal to an extent especially with Cersei and to small extent the Ghost of High Heart. Then as you mention you have Mel who tries and wants to be right about these prophecies but her own personal biases don't allow her to see things are they are and not how she wishes them to be. But I think the general theme when it comes to prophecies in ASOIAF is that those who try to make them happen or actively avoid them, make things worse. Cersei tries to avoid her prophecy yet all her actions let to the prophecy being fulfilled. For Rhaegar it seems from what we know hat he was trying to recreate the Three Heads of the Dragons, his actions in doing this where the spark that led t Robert's Rebellion and almost the extermination of his family. The irony is that it'll not be his son Aegon but his sister who will probably lead that trifecta. I noticed many readers do the same as the characters, myself included, we try to unravel everything and as much as we may try to remain objective, our personal biases guide us. I, as a strong Daenerys supporter have the tendency to always put her in the center of everything, although it would be quite difficult not to considered her character.Yet I've read people discarding her completely as if she wasn't in the book at all. I became quite protective of her because of this. Back to your post, the way prophecies seems to outplay those aware of it is quite interesting and true. Maybe complete unawareness is needed, so that one would not try to interpret and act a prophecy out. If that is the case then Daenerys is quite the candidate as she fulfilled the prophecy when the it hadn't been disclosed yet, not even to the readers. It all, somehow, reminds me of a beatiful discussion I read on this forum about Natural Magic VS Ritual Magic. I probably do the same ( I know I do!) but as you say considering her character she is pretty central to the story. She encompass in her arc both the political and magical aspects of the series in a way that no other character does. Jon has some political and some magical aspects to his story but they aren't the major themes, Tyrion is almost exclusively political and Bran is almost exclusively magical while Sansa and Arya have different themes to their story within the larger aspects of the series. Like you I was also baffled at her dismissal and became protective of her. I just felt that she was unfairly being judged and categorized by the majority of the fans. Jon is probably the biggest fan favorite and it's mostly because his arc is the closest to the archetype of a hero and GRRM himself as confirmed this. That, however, doesn't mean that he's "the hero of the story" like many fans like to argue. It's a lot more complicated than that and many other primary characters will have their part to play in equal or even greater footing than Jon (I'm thinking about Bran for the greater because he's pretty much a demigod all seeing being). Regarding the prophesies, I do think it's really important that Dany fulfilled the majority of the prophecy before we had any clue about the prophecy. As you noted in our discussion, she has a natural magic about her, an instinctual magic that guided her in her quest. This is an important aspect of Dany's character, she is very instinctual and sometimes this leads her in the right direction and sometimes it leads her in the wrong direction. Ironically, Dany does receive many prophecies but is dismissive of them even as she thinks about them. I'm thinking of ADWD when she says something like "prophecies are just words and words a wind". Then later we see her contemplating the treason the Undying warned her about, she think Daario might be one yet she still continues her relationship to him and continues to trust him. So, while she might ponder about the prophesies told to her she still continues to act on her own, not truly letting the prophesies guide her. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 17:19:40 GMT -5
I noticed many readers do the same as the characters, myself included, we try to unravel everything and as much as we may try to remain objective, our personal biases guide us. I, as a strong Daenerys supporter have the tendency to always put her in the center of everything, although it would be quite difficult not to considered her character.Yet I've read people discarding her completely as if she wasn't in the book at all. I became quite protective of her because of this. Back to your post, the way prophecies seems to outplay those aware of it is quite interesting and true. Maybe complete unawareness is needed, so that one would not try to interpret and act a prophecy out. If that is the case then Daenerys is quite the candidate as she fulfilled the prophecy when the it hadn't been disclosed yet, not even to the readers. It all, somehow, reminds me of a beatiful discussion I read on this forum about Natural Magic VS Ritual Magic. I probably do the same ( I know I do!) but as you say considering her character she is pretty central to the story. She encompass in her arc both the political and magical aspects of the series in a way that no other character does. Jon has some political and some magical aspects to his story but they aren't the major themes, Tyrion is almost exclusively political and Bran is almost exclusively magical while Sansa and Arya have different themes to their story within the larger aspects of the series. Like you I was also baffled at her dismissal and became protective of her. I just felt that she was unfairly being judged and categorized by the majority of the fans. Jon is probably the biggest fan favorite and it's mostly because his arc is the closest to the archetype of a hero and GRRM himself as confirmed this. That, however, doesn't mean that he's "the hero of the story" like many fans like to argue. It's a lot more complicated than that and many other primary characters will have their part to play in equal or even greater footing than Jon (I'm thinking about Bran for the greater because he's pretty much a demigod all seeing being). Regarding the prophesies, I do think it's really important that Dany fulfilled the majority of the prophecy before we had any clue about the prophecy. As you noted in our discussion, she has a natural magic about her, an instinctual magic that guided her in her quest. This is an important aspect of Dany's character, she is very instinctual and sometimes this leads her in the right direction and sometimes it leads her in the wrong direction. Ironically, Dany does receive many prophecies but is dismissive of them even as she thinks about them. I'm thinking of ADWD when she says something like "prophecies are just words and words a wind". Then later we see her contemplating the treason the Undying warned her about, she think Daario might be one yet she still continues her relationship to him and continues to trust him. So, while she might ponder about the prophesies told to her she still continues to act on her own, not truly letting the prophesies guide her. I do love how Daenerys never lets prophecies guide her hand. When she acts following a greater force it is her instinct that guides her, which can be ascribed as Natural Magic. She does not use prophecies as tools and refuse to be made a tool of prophecies and this is exclusive to her character. Honestly, every time I saw her ignored was in favour of Jon, it was the only way to let Jon have the central role, I guess. The most central role. A role I fail to see in ASOIAF as the main characters seems to be all central somehow and can absolve an unique role that befits them and no one else. I'm not sure about Jon being a fan favorite, I don't know if such a character exists, he was the favorite at WestOrg for sure but a lot of it depended by the posters aggressive and derisive behavior of new comers or different minded people. Having a conversation that did not for their vision was frustrating and rendered difficult by them. Honestly I cannot predict Jon's role, I think that he strictly related to Daenerys though. The other day I was thinking how, if Daenerys were to be injured to death during the last fight, he could give her the kiss of life, if she happened to be the most formidable enemy of the Others. I can also envision a romantic future for them, belief that the show had strengthen. I cannot see them to be enemies, first of all the difference in strength is absolute, second they are similar in many ways and would see eye to eye. So unless Jon is forced to be an agent of the Other I cannot seem them as antagonist. Now the thought you had about Daenerys being a synthesis of the most prominent aspect of the show, the political one and magical one is truly interesting as it creates a new trifecta including Daenerys, Tyrion and Bran. Different from the Dragon Riders one. I love to think the book talk in 3s. I am of the belief that Dragon cannot be warged as there are not account on that. I always thought that warging a Dragon or trying to would set the warg's mind ablaze or something like that, drive the warg mad. Maybe Bran could pull it off but I doubt it could do unscathed, which is way I always went for Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon as the riding trios. Maybe if Tyrion is not a natural rider Bran can repay him by offering him a "saddle". Or maybe if Euron managed to capture a Dragon, Bran can break the magical shackles. In short I wish Book Six was here already. |
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