konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Oct 1, 2016 18:27:03 GMT -5
Or Sam.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Oct 1, 2016 19:05:26 GMT -5
Or Sam. No thanks. Sam's girl is prettier than Jon.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 1, 2016 19:34:16 GMT -5
Politically it makes some sense. However the stumbling block will be that the marriage wouldn't be valid without rumpy pumpy and I can't see that happening, unless Jon suddenly has Targaryen desires. But I doubt Sansa would go for that unless she's really that power hungry. An analogy would be Elizabeth of York. She was rumoured to have been a little bit too close to Richard III. Doubt it'll happen though. Yeah I really don't see it happening either despite them being first cousins which was much more acceptable in the time period of the story for marriages particularly royalty and nobility. People are quick to point out how prevalent incest is in the story but we have to remind ourselves those were exceptional cases especially Cersei/Jaime and the Targaryens were nearly extinct at this point. Add to that as you said, Jon and Sansa grew up as siblings so psychologically they see one another that way, not as potential mates the way Targaryens were raised to understand. Even Daenerys mentioned in her internal thinking that she always assumed she would marry Viserys - so the custom has been instilled in her from a young age. Not so the Starks. If Jon gets together with a blood relative, I would put my money on Auntie Daenerys before Sansa. I think partially people ship Sansa and Jon because of the original outline, where Jon was suppose to get together with Arya. They are trying to fit the current story with the outline. Also, Kit and Sophie had good chemistry and worked well together. I personally don't see it but tha might be because I see Jon in a different parring.
|
|
mandzipop
Moondancer
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
@mandzipop
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1,642
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
17
0
Oct 26, 2022 19:05:19 GMT -5
1,642
mandzipop
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
1,420
Jun 22, 2016 7:24:21 GMT -5
June 2016
mandzipop
1 Time Winner
|
Post by mandzipop on Oct 2, 2016 8:06:46 GMT -5
There was a lot of good chemistry last season and there were feels that basically if you didn't know they were raised as siblings and just saw those scenes, you could very easily misinterpret there scenes as a couple, or potential couple. I do think this was intentional. The interview with Alexander Siddig is what makes me think that. They are prepared to write and give themselves options. The fact that the Dorne story was scrapped says it all. I think that season 6 opened the door for the Jonsa option. I think the flirtation was intentional to guage public reaction to the possibility. I'm not saying that they would marry as a love match, it would be political, but more putting the idea into people's heads about them possibly being a couple. They did the full Ned/Cat job on them last season. I think the show has made it clear that if Jon were to go into any sort of relationship, love or political, there are only 2 realistic options available to him. Dany and Sansa. Both have pro's and cons. Romance wise, Dany/Jon all the way. On a political level, superficially, it looks like Dany would have the upper hand due to her dragons. However, there are some issues with Dany on a political level. These dwarf any possible political issues with Jon/Sansa. After I watched S6 Ep10, even though the Jonsa feels were there a little bit, I concluded that as Dany had dumped Daario, they have set her up for a marriage with Jon. He was the only logical choice. Then I did a Jon re-watch which made me consider that there is foreshadowing that Jon and Dany won't be a political alliance (I've started to do character only re-watches). S4 Ep10 contains a conversation between Jon and Tormund. It is the following bit that I think has some foreshadowing:- Jon - I don't know what happens to the prisoners. Tormund - Who decides? Jon - I suppose Stannis does. Tormund - He your King now? Jon - I don't have a King. Tormund - You spend too much time with us Jon Snow. You can never be a kneeler again. Jon bows to Stannis prior to that conversation, he never conceeds power again after that conversation. After that he becomes LC of the Nights Watch, so no conceding power. An army General, again no conceding power, then KitN. If I'm right, Jon will not kneel to Dany, nor will he concede power to Dany. Should they forge a marriage alliance, Dany would only settle for herself to be Queen and Jon her Prince Consort, however Jon wouldn't accept that and would only accept being King and Dany queen. Neither will accept the other being the superior partner in a marriage alliance. It also heavily suggests to me that at least one of them doesn't make it. I do ship Jon and Dany as a romantic pairing, but not as a long term political marriage match. But they may have changed their minds and decided that Jon would be happy to bow down to Dany (not a cat in hell's chance would it be the other way around ). I'm expecting most people to disagree with most of my comments, and to be fair, before I did my Jon re-watch, I would have also disagreed. I haven't done a Dany re-watch yet. So I'm not too sure where I'm standing on my ship. I just know that the ship is called Titanic and it is sinking. I might need to find a lifeboat. Gendry!!!!!!
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 2, 2016 9:50:06 GMT -5
mandzipopI don't think you can compare what the writers did with Dorne with a potential Jon/Sansa paring. Dorne doesn't have endgame ramifications, but paring up Jon and Sandra would. If the paring is part of the story then that's what will happen (I'm talking endgame now). I don't think they'll scrap it because people feel squeamish. Political speaking it makes very little sense at this moment, they are siblings and have each other's support. However, if/when Jon's parentage is revealed the Northern lords might decide not to back him anymore because his mother was a Stark and not his father. If Jon wants to continue to be king then he could marry Sansa in order to give his kingship legitimacy. Having said that the Northern Lords did select a bastard as their king, so being a Stark by his mother side might still work. That I think would be the impetus for a marriage between the two On a side note I can't see Sansa demanding that Jon marry her in order to continue her connections to the Vale. A political marriage between Dany and Jon is much more beneficial to Jon than to Dany. He needs the armies, the supplies and the dragons in order to survive winter and fight the Others. She'll need the North eventually in order to unify the kingdoms but she can wait them out. Most of the Northern food supplies come from the South, if she does an embargo on them that would be a tremendous blow. Militarily there would be little they could do against the South, which still has two fresh armies (Martell and Tyrell) plus of course Dany's army and her dragons. I wouldn't be too quick to say that Dany would expect Jon to kneel. Dany is a lot more pragmatic than people give her credit for it. When Tyrion entered her service she didn't ask him to kneel to her, when he decided that he wanted to do it, he did it out of respect and of his own volition. We don't see Yara and Theon kneeling to her either (although they could have done it before the scene started) and when they agree on a deal they shake hands, they don't kneel to her like others have done. I've always though that the relationship between Dany and Jon would work because he alone would be her true equal. That's the problem Dany's has had with her relationships with men, they are either in a position of power over her (Viserys and khal Drogo) or they are subservient to her (Dario and Jorah). She has met precious few men who could truly be her equals. Tyrion is probably the closest thing we have seen and you can see how much she respects him. I think it will be a meeting of equals when they first encounter each other. And in case somebody is wondering I don't think Dany would care Jon is a bastard, the man she's love the most didn't even have a last name and she then went ahead and married a slaver who's last name meant shit to her and of course she made Tyrion her hand and he's a Lannister, you know that family that helped destroy her family. Her name is important to HER because when she had nothing, that's all she had. ETA: Regarding the imagery between Jon and Sansa there is also the Cat and Robb aspect of it, especially with the KiTN scene.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Oct 2, 2016 11:19:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't be too quick to say that Dany would expect Jon to kneel. Dany is a lot more pragmatic than people give her credit for it. When Tyrion entered her service she didn't ask him to kneel to her, when he decided that he wanted to do it, he did it out of respect and of his own volition. We don't see Yara and Thrones kneeling to her either (although they could have done it before the scene started) and when they agree on a deal they shake hands, they don't kneel to her like others have done. I've always though that the relationship between Dany and Jon would work because he alone would be her true equal. That's the problem Dany's has had with her relationships with men, they are either in a position of power over her (Viserys and khal Drogo) or they are subservient to her (Dario and Jorah). She has met previous few men who could truly be her equals. Tyrion is probably the closest thing we have seen and you can see how much she respects him. I think it will be a meeting of equals when they first encounter each other. Loved this bit and I think it's really very significant to the overall story to come. This was given it's own special scene on the show to emphasize how differently Daenerys is starting to see her future as a ruler. They made a big point of having her acknowledge how terrible all their Fathers were and how they're going to do things differently. She learned this over time because when she first began her plans to return to Westeros, she did so as a typical Targaryen ruler would view it... "it's my right and Westeros will love me because of it or they will die..." which was something she learned from her terrible brother Viserys. "They will live in their new world or they will die in their old" is another phrase we heard her say. In time though, she's matured and grown wiser which really was the whole point of the monotonously long Meereen story arc. Daenerys, like her dragons, needed time to grow up and mature. As much as most people disliked Meereen, it at least provided a place for her to make her mistakes before going to Westeros. Same for Jon and the Wall really... he made his mistakes as Lord Commander because he thought he was doing the right thing (as did Dany). I don't think as KitN he will make the same mistakes. But I've derailed the shipping topic a bit, sorry! Daenerys will not expect Jon to kneel to her, of this I am certain. She's changed, so has he. He understands equality now from leading the freefolk, They will come to an agreement and possibly a union (political or romantic remains to be seen). They have to unite. At this point it's a given ... winter is here.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 2, 2016 11:37:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't be too quick to say that Dany would expect Jon to kneel. Dany is a lot more pragmatic than people give her credit for it. When Tyrion entered her service she didn't ask him to kneel to her, when he decided that he wanted to do it, he did it out of respect and of his own volition. We don't see Yara and Thrones kneeling to her either (although they could have done it before the scene started) and when they agree on a deal they shake hands, they don't kneel to her like others have done. I've always though that the relationship between Dany and Jon would work because he alone would be her true equal. That's the problem Dany's has had with her relationships with men, they are either in a position of power over her (Viserys and khal Drogo) or they are subservient to her (Dario and Jorah). She has met previous few men who could truly be her equals. Tyrion is probably the closest thing we have seen and you can see how much she respects him. I think it will be a meeting of equals when they first encounter each other. Loved this bit and I think it's really very significant to the overall story to come. This was given it's own special scene on the show to emphasize how differently Daenerys is starting to see her future as a ruler. They made a big point of having her acknowledge how terrible all their Fathers were and how they're going to do things differently. She learned this over time because when she first began her plans to return to Westeros, she did so as a typical Targaryen ruler would view it... "it's my right and Westeros will love me because of it or they will die..." which was something she learned from her terrible brother Viserys. "They will live in their new world or they will die in their old" is another phrase we heard her say. In time though, she's matured and grown wiser which really was the whole point of the monotonously long Meereen story arc. Daenerys, like her dragons, needed time to grow up and mature. As much as most people disliked Meereen, it at least provided a place for her to make her mistakes before going to Westeros. Same for Jon and the Wall really... he made his mistakes as Lord Commander because he thought he was doing the right thing (as did Dany). I don't think as KitN he will make the same mistakes. But I've derailed the shipping topic a bit, sorry! Daenerys will not expect Jon to kneel to her, of this I am certain. She's changed, so has he. He understands equality now from leading the freefolk, They will come to an agreement and possibly a union (political or romantic remains to be seen). They have to unite. At this point it's a given ... winter is here. Really good point about Dany's evolving attitude towards herself as a queen and towards others. I think as you say her time in Meereen as well as her relationship with Tyrion have helped her become much more mature and pragmatic. And you are right , it has evolved from the entletement she felt earlier in the series. In a way t wasn't completely her fault, this is all she hear about growing up and believing it would be natural. Of course she still sees the throne as her right but she's evolved in the manner in which she want to approach her retaking of the crown. I think that's important and will play an interesting role with Jon and the other lords in Westeros. I thin her Fire and Blood moment in the Dothraki can also be seen as an assertion of her convictions. Dany will want to negotiating with those who are open to it. But she is still a Targaryen and has a ruthless streak, those who don't want to play, better get out of her way.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Oct 2, 2016 11:46:15 GMT -5
There's an interesting scene in 3x01 that struck me as significant (though I'd completely forgotten it before re-watch) as foreshadowing for Dany's future maturity growth. I highlighted it in a post in the discussion thread for the re-watch project. I think it's relevant here in this talk about her evolution and how she will approach the people of Westeros (and Jon too): housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/13094/threadDaenerys was beginning to understand, even way back before Astapor, that the only way she would earn the respect of her people and the armies willing to fight for her was to show the right mix of strength and power but tempered with love. That seems to be the overall theme of Game of Thrones really. Horrible rulers who ruled with fear eventually failed and someone killed them for it. Dany does not intend to make the same mistakes her Father made but it's a tricky thing and she now acknowledges that marriage is definitely a powerful tool in the political arsenal of kings/queens/nobility. That's why I think she may be the one to suggest marriage between herself and Jon Snow rather than out of love. I ship them for a political arrangement that eventually turns to love. I don't ship Sansa/Jon for the same reasons though as you already pointed out there's much less political reason to do so for the northerners. They've already acknowledged him as their chosen leader despite being a bastard and by the time the reveal of Jon's true parentage comes around, it probably won't matter anymore. I have a sneaky suspicion they are holding that reveal for when it makes most sense to the overall story (possible Azor Ahai metaphors).
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 2, 2016 12:24:09 GMT -5
There's an interesting scene in 3x01 that struck me as significant (though I'd completely forgotten it before re-watch) as foreshadowing for Dany's future maturity growth. I highlighted it in a post in the discussion thread for the re-watch project. I think it's relevant here in this talk about her evolution and how she will approach the people of Westeros (and Jon too): housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/13094/threadDaenerys was beginning to understand, even way back before Astapor, that the only way she would earn the respect of her people and the armies willing to fight for her was to show the right mix of strength and power but tempered with love. That seems to be the overall theme of Game of Thrones really. Horrible rulers who ruled with fear eventually failed and someone killed them for it. Dany does not intend to make the same mistakes her Father made but it's a tricky thing and she now acknowledges that marriage is definitely a powerful tool in the political arsenal of kings/queens/nobility. That's why I think she may be the one to suggest marriage between herself and Jon Snow rather than out of love. I ship them for a political arrangement that eventually turns to love. I don't ship Sansa/Jon for the same reasons though as you already pointed out there's much less political reason to do so for the northerners. They've already acknowledged him as their chosen leader despite being a bastard and by the time the reveal of Jon's true parentage comes around, it probably won't matter anymore. I have a sneaky suspicion they are holding that reveal for when it makes most sense to the overall story (possible Azor Ahai metaphors). Jorah was a good mentor to Dany, he is pragmatic and sensible and he almost always told her thr turth. She learned a lot of valuable lessons from him. I feel like Dany's journey was made a little more difficult because she had to deprogram and get rid of all the crap her brother fed her and then learn everything new. Thankfully, she was always observant and picked up many things on her own. Going back to the shipping, I love the fact that Dany is going to be surrounded by people who know, like and/or respect Jon. Like, she'll hopefully be predisposed to if not liking but being open to negotiating with him. She'll have Tyrion, who befriended him on their way to the Wall, Theon who feels guilty about the way he behave and would not speak ill of Jon and of course there is the potential for Sam to encounter Dany while he's South. I think it would be a great opportunity for the show to have Sam at the Citadel learn how Valyrian Needs dragon fire to be made and then hear that Dany is in Westeros with her dragons and head over to her. I don't think it'll be that easy or smple but the possibility is there. For Jon I think he'll feel conflicted about Dany. He's heard what everyone's has head about the Targaryens but he's also known a Targaryen, Maester Aemon unlike most people. He must have heard something here and there about Dany from the info drops Maester Aemon got. So, he won't be predisposed against Dany. However, if as we all suspect shit is gonna go down and go down ugly in the South he'll probably hear some pretty bad things about Dany, some of which might very well be true. When Dany fights, she fights. . So, I think he'll retrain his judgement until he meets her. But he probably won't be enthusiastic about it.
|
|
mandzipop
Moondancer
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
@mandzipop
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1,642
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
17
0
Oct 26, 2022 19:05:19 GMT -5
1,642
mandzipop
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
1,420
Jun 22, 2016 7:24:21 GMT -5
June 2016
mandzipop
1 Time Winner
|
Post by mandzipop on Oct 2, 2016 12:34:27 GMT -5
moiafI agree that right now a pairing between Jon and Sansa would make no sense. I do suspect that Jon finds out in season 7. The fact that it is suspected that Isaac was filming godswood scenes points in that direction. It won't make any difference to the wildlings that Rhaegar was his father, but I'm not convinced that the northern lords will be quite so accommodating. They might be totally fine with it, I'm just not convinced. I'll stick with politics Sansa and Jon, romance Dany and Jon. I know people are saying that there's no time for romance or marriage in the show so neither will happen. However, it won't take 6 episodes to get rid of the whitewalkers when there are dragons around. Alliances will need to be forged and marriage is always a point of discussion for alliances, especially when it comes to nobles and royalty. It is not a subject that can be ignored. It has been a huge theme throughout the entire series, it will not go away just because Jon is now involved. I'm still hopeful of Arya and Gendry.
|
|
Lils
Moondancer
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
@lils
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 2,069
inherit
100
0
Feb 3, 2018 18:50:43 GMT -5
2,069
Lils
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
1,294
Oct 10, 2016 15:43:58 GMT -5
October 2016
lils
|
Post by Lils on Oct 10, 2016 16:37:58 GMT -5
There will be time for Dany/Jon. I honestly think the seasons break down will have Season 7 focusing on the battle for the throne and wrapping up with the characters who will have no part to play in the final war against the Night King. This will end the game of thrones. Season 8 will be entirely devoted to the real war and the battle against the Night King. I can't imagine there will be a strong focus on politics during that. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon and Dany were at least discussing marriage around the season 7 finale.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 10, 2016 16:43:08 GMT -5
There will be time for Dany/Jon. I honestly think the seasons break down will have Season 7 focusing on the battle for the throne and wrapping up with the characters who will have no part to play in the final war against the Night King. This will end the game of thrones. Season 8 will be entirely devoted to the real war and the battle against the Night King. I can't imagine there will be a strong focus on politics during that. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon and Dany were at least discussing marriage around the season 7 finale. From you mounts to D&D's ears.
|
|
mandzipop
Moondancer
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
@mandzipop
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1,642
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
17
0
Oct 26, 2022 19:05:19 GMT -5
1,642
mandzipop
Looking for Littlefinger's jetpack
1,420
Jun 22, 2016 7:24:21 GMT -5
June 2016
mandzipop
1 Time Winner
|
Post by mandzipop on Oct 11, 2016 6:08:04 GMT -5
All heterosexual female characters need to be shipped with Pod at least once in their life (except the Sand Snakes, they don't deserve him). I still find it a pity we never got the details. I'm still intrigued.
|
|
Lils
Moondancer
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
@lils
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 2,069
inherit
100
0
Feb 3, 2018 18:50:43 GMT -5
2,069
Lils
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
1,294
Oct 10, 2016 15:43:58 GMT -5
October 2016
lils
|
Post by Lils on Oct 17, 2016 10:46:16 GMT -5
The recent reddit "spoilers" have made things crazy in the jonerys tag on tumblr.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Oct 17, 2016 11:17:58 GMT -5
The recent reddit "spoilers" have made things crazy in the jonerys tag on tumblr. It happens, especially when it confirms something or disproves something else. The leak is bullshit though, we should wait until the actual spoilers start coming out.
|
|