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Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 5, 2016 19:35:49 GMT -5
Also, while Cat is sad that Brandon died terribly, it was only when Ned was a stranger that she had any reason to wish he were Brandon. After they fell in love and had 4 more kids after Robb, she would not be resenting the loss of the life she could have had pre-R+L. Ned was the rock her life was built on and when he died she felt they'd killed her too. He was not some second choice she had to settle for by the time they actually knew and loved each other. Ned was undoubtedly the love of her life and Brandon was puppy love at most.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 19:48:47 GMT -5
Yes, after 14 years together love grew. I'm not questioning that one bit. But in looking strictly at the books, which means focusing only on "The Game of Thrones" at this moment, while she loves Ned, she cannot love Jon. She refuses to let him stay at Winterfell, remarking he isn't her son, only Ned's. It is the flaw in the otherwise perfect relationship they have built. Before the book ends, this thorn will become an bitter root she lives with in her widowhood.
Should Ned have confided in her after many years together? I think he never felt she would keep the secret. Once he started the charade, he couldn't change the story without someone discovering the truth. As the years went by, it just became an accepted fact - and even if Ned had confessed Jon's parentage, would anyone have believed him that late in the game?
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 5, 2016 20:05:23 GMT -5
Idt she and Lysa were really in close contact, given the shock of their reunion at the Eyrie and that Brynden had to fill her in about how unhappy Lysa was. Also I doubt anyone outside of the Winterfell household would have noticed or cared how Cat treated Jon. If anyone was going to wonder about Rhaegar/Lyanna it would have been based on what was already known, that they were shacked up for quite a while and that Lyanna died suddenly of natural causes with Ned at her side and he came back home with a bastard son, not bc Ned's wife loved him and grew to care for his bastard. But no one who knew Ned seemed at all intrigued by those known facts of R+L. They had their own lives to lead and no reason to give as much thought to Jon Snow as we do. I really fucked up that analysis of what would happen if Ned told Cat, didn't I. Well from Ned's perspective besides Lyanna's "Promise Me", he chose not to tell Cat because if Robert did ever find out somehow, she wouldn't be held responsible since she didn't know the truth. Yes, I think that was possibly one of his reasons, more likely than him thinking she'd betray him and be the one to tell Robert. And by betray him, I mean him as in Ned, who was committing treason by lying to Robert all those years. She'd have to know Ned would be at risk of punishment if his deception was revealed, so she would only spill it if she actually wanted her husband, the rock her life was built on, the loving father of their 5 children to be executed for treason.
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 6, 2016 4:15:28 GMT -5
So glad to have a topic that has garnered interest. Let me explain my post further. Everything in Catelyn Tully's life changed because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. Without that, she would have married Brandon and Ned most likely would have wed Ashara Dayne or some other highborn daughter. But then the lovers run. Brandon and Lord Rickard are murdered by the Mad King, and Catelyn finds herself married to a stranger, the younger brother thrust suddenly into lordship due to a heinous crime. No sooner are they wed and she's pregnant with Robb as Ned goes off to fight Robert's Rebellion. She's left alone at Winterfell, in the company of more strangers. Even Lysa deserted her for an infatuation with Littlefinger. After a hard first pregnancy, and going through the changes that accompany post-partum, her gallant stranger returned from the war minus his entire family (save for Benjen who is a brother of the Night's Watch) with a small baby boy he will say nothing more about than he is Ned's son. Even when she asks him, in Chapter 6, Catelyn II, Ned replies, "Never ask me about John,' he said, cold as ice. 'He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard <Ashara's> name, my lady.'" "It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastard's for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she born him. Somehow that made it worse." There is no love there for Jon, period. Even knowing Ned couldn't take the boy to court, she refuses to allow him to stay at Winterfell with Robb. Remember, in the book Robb and Jon are only 14. That's a hard age to throw a boy to the mercy of the Night's Watch. While I agree she wouldn't have thrown the baby Jon out of a tower window, when she looks at him from beside Bran's bed and says, "I wish it had been you," she isn't kidding.
Much is made of Catelyn and her love for her children, but to me her total lack of love or mercy for Jon says so much more about character than anything. Catelyn was not kidding when she said that, but it was also during a very extraordinary period in her life. She did not love Jon, but we have no reason to assume that she was an evil stepmother to Jon. As far as we know, Jon had a lot of privileges and Catelyn let him be most of his life. She only said that to him because she was in a very bad place. It was an exception and we should treat it as such. But that's not the most revelant point I want to make anyway. The point is that Catelyn does not hate Jon because he is Jon. She dislikes Jon because he is walking talking proof of Eddard's infidelity. Her reason to dislike Jon would be gone if she knew the truth. She does not hate Jon because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. That has absolutely nothing to do with that and if she knew the truth about his parentage, I bet she would be much more forgiving of that than you think. In fact, I'm positive she would not care about that at all. Her sole problem with Jon is that he is living mockery of her marriage. If she knew the truth, she would have no reason whatsoever to dislike Jon. Dislikes Jon? She absolutely loathes and hates Jon. She hates every little thing about him. ..and to the window throwing accusation. No she wouldn't kill a kid in any circumstance, she's not LSH (yet). The knowledge of Jon's parentage is extremely dangerous and the more people knew about it, the more likely it would leak to Robert. If Cat would have known from the very beginning that Jon wasn't Ned's, this would have caused major problems. She wouldn't treat him like shit and people would start to wonder why she would treat Jon so nicely. Ned decided to keep it a secret to protect Cat and Jon. I'm quite sure Ned wouldn't even want Howland to know the truth, but he was given no choice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 4:31:16 GMT -5
Catelyn was not kidding when she said that, but it was also during a very extraordinary period in her life. She did not love Jon, but we have no reason to assume that she was an evil stepmother to Jon. As far as we know, Jon had a lot of privileges and Catelyn let him be most of his life. She only said that to him because she was in a very bad place. It was an exception and we should treat it as such. But that's not the most revelant point I want to make anyway. The point is that Catelyn does not hate Jon because he is Jon. She dislikes Jon because he is walking talking proof of Eddard's infidelity. Her reason to dislike Jon would be gone if she knew the truth. She does not hate Jon because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. That has absolutely nothing to do with that and if she knew the truth about his parentage, I bet she would be much more forgiving of that than you think. In fact, I'm positive she would not care about that at all. Her sole problem with Jon is that he is living mockery of her marriage. If she knew the truth, she would have no reason whatsoever to dislike Jon. Dislikes Jon? She absolutely loathes and hates Jon. She hates every little thing about him. ..and to the window throwing accusation. No she wouldn't kill a kid in any circumstance, she's not LSH (yet). The knowledge of Jon's parentage is extremely dangerous and the more people knew about it, the more likely it would leak to Robert. If Cat would have known from the very beginning that Jon wasn't Ned's, this would have caused major problems. She wouldn't treat him like shit and people would start to wonder why she would treat Jon so nicely. Ned decided to keep it a secret to protect Cat and Jon. I'm quite sure Ned wouldn't even want Howland to know the truth, but he was given no choice. She doesn't hate Jon the person. Quite frankly, she does not care for him as a person and she barely knew him. She hates what Jon stands for, her husband's infidelity. But you are missing the point I was trying to make. The point was even though she "hates" Jon, she did not actively try to make his life harder. Jon is not Cinderella and Cat is not the evil stepmother. Also, I understand why Ned did what he did. But I doubt that anyone outside the people of Winterfell would have even noticed or cared for how Cat treated Jon. Also, a "He is just an innocent child. My problem lies with my husband" would have sufficed to make people believe her. Accepting an innocent child is not too far-fetched. There are plenty of people who would have reacted differently than Cat did. Hell, I would have reacted differently even without knowing Jon was not my husband's bastard. I think you are overestimating how much people care for bastards. Besides, Ned didn't have to tell Cat right when he came back from war. But somewhen during the last 14 years maybe?
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Post by Basil on Sept 6, 2016 4:40:51 GMT -5
Catelyn was not kidding when she said that, but it was also during a very extraordinary period in her life. She did not love Jon, but we have no reason to assume that she was an evil stepmother to Jon. As far as we know, Jon had a lot of privileges and Catelyn let him be most of his life. She only said that to him because she was in a very bad place. It was an exception and we should treat it as such. But that's not the most revelant point I want to make anyway. The point is that Catelyn does not hate Jon because he is Jon. She dislikes Jon because he is walking talking proof of Eddard's infidelity. Her reason to dislike Jon would be gone if she knew the truth. She does not hate Jon because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. That has absolutely nothing to do with that and if she knew the truth about his parentage, I bet she would be much more forgiving of that than you think. In fact, I'm positive she would not care about that at all. Her sole problem with Jon is that he is living mockery of her marriage. If she knew the truth, she would have no reason whatsoever to dislike Jon. Dislikes Jon? She absolutely loathes and hates Jon. She hates every little thing about him. ..and to the window throwing accusation. No she wouldn't kill a kid in any circumstance, she's not LSH (yet). The knowledge of Jon's parentage is extremely dangerous and the more people knew about it, the more likely it would leak to Robert. If Cat would have known from the very beginning that Jon wasn't Ned's, this would have caused major problems. She wouldn't treat him like shit and people would start to wonder why she would treat Jon so nicely. Ned decided to keep it a secret to protect Cat and Jon. I'm quite sure Ned wouldn't even want Howland to know the truth, but he was given no choice. She absolutely does not. Not in the show, not in the books. She hates what Jon is, not who he is. Ned should have told her, it would have made the whole thing easier on everyone involved, primarily Cat and Jon, but also Ned himself. Maybe not tell her right away, but after a few years of marriage, after they had build a life together and after he'd witness how much his wife was struggling with it and how she unjustly focused all her bitterness on the child, there was no reason to keep it from her or to distrust her. None. I think the main reason why he didn't tell her was probably the promise he made to Lyanna not to tell anyone, including his wife, which overall is typical of Ned, and his stubborn, honor-bound ways.
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Post by Basil on Sept 6, 2016 5:08:42 GMT -5
I think overall, people exaggerate the relationship between Jon and Cat a little bit.
She didn't sit there all day, trying to come up with new ways to make his life miserable. She didn't care for Jon, he was not a big part of her life. He was there, but she probably didn't pay him much attention or interact with him very often. Her bitterness towards him was mostly internalized, she didn't act upon it. When they did interact, she was generally cold to him, and she said this really shitty thing to him this one time (which was cut from the show, for better or worse) - but that's about the extent of it. It's all reprehensible, sure, and if Cat was a perfect human being, she would have loved Jon as though he was her own ... but that would have probably made her a boring character.
Jon didn't take the black just because Catelyn didn't want him at Winterfell, there was more to it than just that. He was a bastard and as such had zero inheritance rights, he wanted to be with his uncle Benjen, he thought of the Night's Watch as heroes and he wanted to become a ranger himself and protect humanity. Escape from his life as Ned Stark's bastard and do something that was, in his eyes, meaningful and honorable.
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 6, 2016 5:52:56 GMT -5
You can hate other people but still not make their life hell. The relationship between Cat and Jon is very complex and thus extremely interesting. This also makes Cat such a fascinating character and she would be quite a boring character without this weakness of her.
The “It should have been you"- line is incredibly harsh and I don't think you would say that to someone you just dislike. This is mostly Cat's raw emotion talking at the time, but there's some truth to it. "Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell." This sounds like she was going to make his time miserable.
She can't bring herself to hate Ned, so she redirects this to Jon. Every time she sees Jon, it reminds her of Ned's "betrayal" and that pisses her off. This is totally understandable. The bloody kid looks like Ned as well.
She drives Jon to the wall. Yes, Jon didn't take the black just because of Catelyn, but she was a big part of it.
Then we have the mess when Robb wanted to name Jon his heir (when Bran and Rickon were presumed dead). She lets her blind hatred get in the way of logic. She refuses to support Jon and compares Jon to the Blackfyre rebels. Most of this is just the normal Westerosi anti-bastard talk, but before Jon leaves to the Wall, she thinks of him as a threat to her grandchildren and she does it again in this chapter.
Yes, if Ned would have told the truth to Cat, everything would have been easier for Cat, but he was way too stubborn.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 6, 2016 9:14:36 GMT -5
It is interesting to look at the general attitude toward bastards. Everyone seems to have one, yet only in Dorne are they included in the family. Oberyn Martell had half a dozen bastards. Look at Elleria Sand, Oberyn's lover. There is no difference in how she treats the bastards that aren't her children, she raised them equally.
In the book, Robert has two acknowledged bastards, and many more unacknowledged. They posed no threat to the legitimate children, yet Joffrey (or Cersei) order them all killed. Was this a strategy or petty jealousy? Now that the Baratheons are extinct will Gendry be allowed to take his father's name? (If he returns from his round the world voyage at sea!)
Catelyn hates Jon because he is a constant reminder that Ned was unfaithful. Rather than place the blame where it belongs she lays it on a small child. Quite a burden to bear at a young age. It's this kernel of hatred that is the flaw which helps bring about Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn will do anything to protect her natural born children, no matter the costs. Example: last night I read the chapter where Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner at the inn. She thinks to herself how will her sons react to the decision she is about to make, but no thought to what might happen to Ned and her daughters down in King's Landing, practically Lannister Central East. She is so wrapped up in pursuing vengeance for Bran all else falls to the wayside.
Another thought that has occurred to me is, would Robert have killed Jon, knowing he was the only child of Lyanna or would he only see the product of Rhaegar's abduction? I think by this point, 14 years after the Rebellion, he only loves Lyanna because she isn't Cersei. He even remarks to his wife he no longer remembers what she looked like. Robert loves the notion of what life would have been like if Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna. He wouldn't have become a different person, even Lyanna was smart enough to know he would stray no matter how much he professed to love her. But in looking at Jon, would he see the face of the woman he loved, or the face of the man he killed?
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 6, 2016 9:57:55 GMT -5
It is interesting to look at the general attitude toward bastards. Everyone seems to have one, yet only in Dorne are they included in the family. Oberyn Martell had half a dozen bastards. Look at Elleria Sand, Oberyn's lover. There is no difference in how she treats the bastards that aren't her children, she raised them equally. In the book, Robert has two acknowledged bastards, and many more unacknowledged. They posed no threat to the legitimate children, yet Joffrey (or Cersei) order them all killed. Was this a strategy or petty jealousy? Now that the Baratheons are extinct will Gendry be allowed to take his father's name? (If he returns from his round the world voyage at sea!) Catelyn hates Jon because he is a constant reminder that Ned was unfaithful. Rather than place the blame where it belongs she lays it on a small child. Quite a burden to bear at a young age. It's this kernel of hatred that is the flaw which helps bring about Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn will do anything to protect her natural born children, no matter the costs. Example: last night I read the chapter where Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner at the inn. She thinks to herself how will her sons react to the decision she is about to make, but no thought to what might happen to Ned and her daughters down in King's Landing, practically Lannister Central East. She is so wrapped up in pursuing vengeance for Bran all else falls to the wayside. Another thought that has occurred to me is, would Robert have killed Jon, knowing he was the only child of Lyanna or would he only see the product of Rhaegar's abduction? I think by this point, 14 years after the Rebellion, he only loves Lyanna because she isn't Cersei. He even remarks to his wife he no longer remembers what she looked like. Robert loves the notion of what life would have been like if Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna. He wouldn't have become a different person, even Lyanna was smart enough to know he would stray no matter how much he professed to love her. But in looking at Jon, would he see the face of the woman he loved, or the face of the man he killed? Very true. Robert treated his bastards better than his "natural children". I believe that Joffrey killed the bastards so that they were no longer a threat to his rule. The appearance of Robert's bastards was the greatest threat to Joff, they all had the Baratheon look what he didn't have. Perhaps the Blackfyre rebellions made their mark on Westerosi and their attitude towards bastards. Edric Storm might be legitimized and someone could use his claim on the Iron Throne/Stormlands. I doubt we will ever hear of Gendry again, in the books he's helping the brotherhood. Precisely, she might want to hate Ned, but she can't do it. She also acknowledges that Jon isn't to blame, but loathes him all the same. It has been really interesting to reread Catelyn's thoughts and actions. They make more sense, but are still kinda silly mistakes she does without caution. Ned, Cat and Robb are pretty similar in these aspects. Poor Jon. If Robert would have heard the truth, Jon would have reminded him of Lyanna and eventually Rhaegar.. Jon would have been a product of rape and Robert would have no problems putting him down. If he was feeling merciful, he would have just sent him to the Wall as soon as he was of age (that worked out without Robert, so it would seem). If the people would have learned of Jon's true parentage, they could have tried to install him on the throne. A risk that Robert could not take. Ned was wise not to tell him.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 6, 2016 23:56:43 GMT -5
Another thought that has occurred to me is, would Robert have killed Jon, knowing he was the only child of Lyanna or would he only see the product of Rhaegar's abduction? I think by this point, 14 years after the Rebellion, he only loves Lyanna because she isn't Cersei. He even remarks to his wife he no longer remembers what she looked like. Robert loves the notion of what life would have been like if Rhaegar hadn't taken Lyanna. He wouldn't have become a different person, even Lyanna was smart enough to know he would stray no matter how much he professed to love her. But in looking at Jon, would he see the face of the woman he loved, or the face of the man he killed? Why would Robert ever need to take a good look at Jon? He was perfectly content to order the death of Dany and her unborn child from hundreds of miles away. Personal responsibility and thinking through the morality of actions is the big contrast between him and Ned. I mean, I doubt he'd even be able to kill Cersei's children if he had to look them in the face to do it. He didn't make any effort to be a father to them but I imagine he got along well enough with Myrcella and Tommen whenever they were in the same room together. Yet Ned, who always tried to think the best of those he loved and was willing to forgive Robert anything, believed beyond doubt that Robert would want all three of the Lannister twincest bastards killed for their parents' sins. I don't think he assumed Robert would suddenly be willing to swing the sword against innocents himself but that he'd give the order and then turn the other way as was his habit. The real question is how anyone could prove Jon's paternity and Ned's betrayal but if Robert knew it for a fact ofc he'd want Rhaegar's rape son dead. Killing Lyanna's rape baby would be, in his mind a profession of his love, his way of avenging her abduction and rape by Rhaegar. I'm not saying that I think Jon was a product of rape but we're talking about the truth of him being Lyanna's son not whether she lurved Rhaegar, something which I think Robert would always refuse to believe and I don't see why anyone would care to convince him on that point anyway. Nor that I think people can't love children born from rape, which should be an obvious disclaimer, just that this is how I think Robert's brain would work. I don't think he loved Lyanna as a person enough to value any child she had by another man even if he hadn't killed that child's father.
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Post by dariopatke on Sept 7, 2016 14:42:10 GMT -5
I'm currently at the end of ACOK. Skipping some chapters that do not interest me (sorry ACOK Dany, you're kinda dull ) The sheer detail in the books is astounding. The sheer amount of characters. I'm concentrating in Stannis and the North (surprise surprise). I realized that the first few times I read the series, I read it with haste and not with full concentration. I really thought Bran and Rickon died when I first read the series.. GRRM made it painfully obvious. I loved the way the books introduced Ramsay. I thought showTheon was nicer than his book counterpart, the book one was a colossal twat who 100% deserved what was coming to him. Agree about Daenerys. Really? I started to like Theon in CoK during my first reading and I still like him very much, he is among my top three characters. What makes you hate Theon?
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 7, 2016 15:10:14 GMT -5
I'm currently at the end of ACOK. Skipping some chapters that do not interest me (sorry ACOK Dany, you're kinda dull ) The sheer detail in the books is astounding. The sheer amount of characters. I'm concentrating in Stannis and the North (surprise surprise). I realized that the first few times I read the series, I read it with haste and not with full concentration. I really thought Bran and Rickon died when I first read the series.. GRRM made it painfully obvious. I loved the way the books introduced Ramsay. I thought showTheon was nicer than his book counterpart, the book one was a colossal twat who 100% deserved what was coming to him. Agree about Daenerys. Really? I started to like Theon in CoK during my first reading and I still like him very much, he is among my top three characters. What makes you hate Theon? Forgot to mention Tyrion and Sansa. Great chapters. How did you like Theon in ACOK? He was an insufferable little twat who was arrogant without any proper reason. His thoughts and actions made me hate Theon. He thought that the world spins around him. Ramsay took him down a peg or two.
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Post by dariopatke on Sept 7, 2016 16:30:36 GMT -5
Forgot to mention Tyrion and Sansa. Great chapters. How did you like Theon in ACOK? He was an insufferable little twat who was arrogant without any proper reason. His thoughts and actions made me hate Theon. He thought that the world spins around him. Ramsay took him down a peg or two. CoK? Yes, Davos, too. If we set aside what he did to millers boys: Lost two brothers and got taken from his home and family at 9 as he admits later he spent 9 years trying to be Stark, but most people mistrust him, even Jon who can easily find common ground with him. He was unwanted in place he was forced to be. Then he joins Robb and fights for him at Whispering Wood, great, a moment of glory and he enjoys, finally happy. Then he gets sent to II, he couldnt be happier, he returns home, attacks Lannisters, dreams of being Lord of CR. There are some minor problem that cam affect teen such as his treatment on way to Seaguard. He finally gets home after ten years as heir to II amd future prince, someone important, but his father amd sister arent there, only creepy uncle who starts taunting Theon immediatly (only good things about this period is that Euron wasnt there I guess), then he reunites with his father and find out that Ned was warm as Lord of the Light when compared to Balon. Then Balon has idiotic idea to attack North and force Theon to attack his friends and he has to do this since people do not consider Ironborn. Then his sister treats him like shit. Then he gets small forces with Aeron to control him and minor task of raiding Stony shore. Theon then brilliantly takes WF, he is Primce of WF and rules castle he had always desired with less than 30 men, but he gets cold welcome, no big deal, this was expected, now he just has to show them he really means to be fair and they will respect him like they respected Ned, remember how he punished his own men when he raped Northener? Then Bran and Rickon escape, he goes after them and in a moment of desparation when thinking that everything he touches turns to ashes he does the worst thing he did. Then his sister arrives and taunts him again, then Rodrick arrives and he threats him with Beth but he didnt want to hang her. That night he gets a proposition to take the black... well at this moment he starts picturing his life at Eastwatch and is quite happy, he almost accepts it but.... Rodricks army is defeated, this must be a miracle, an end of his pain amd beginning of something new and great, a new hope for Theon, but wait... no no he gets captured and has the worst torture possible. In DwD I guess you can sympathise wih his so I dont have to go through it. My point is that Theon had some issuses regarding his imprisonment and his treatment by almost everyone, there was also a problem that whatever he does it backfires completly, he tries and tries and tries and fail. It is something I can symathise with and even see a bit of myself in there. And everything good he does he pays price for it.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 7, 2016 21:32:53 GMT -5
Theon's problem is Theon. I give you that he's had a conflicted childhood. Who in this story hasn't? Yes, he was taken to Winterfell at the age of 9. Yet when we are introduced to the Starks, who is standing beside Lord Eddard, bearing his great sword? Theon.
The problem is the Starks have raised him along with Jon and their trueborn children. Jon as the bastard was the bottom of the social pecking order. Theon was a trueborn son of House Greyjoy, which meant he was 'fostered' at Winterfell the same Ned and Robert with Jon Arryn. Ned didn't see him as just a ward, he treated him the way Jon Arryn treated him and Robert when they were children. Though the circumstances of their changes in residence were different, Arryn's guiding influence and love for the two boys shows in how Ned raised the boys entrusted to him: Theon, Robb, Jon, and to some extent Bran. Only Rickon was too small to have truly know his father.
When Balon sneers at him, at his finery, demanding to know if he paid the iron price, Theon's pride in himself is compromised. Raiding the Stony Shore, with men who barely tolerate him much less obey him, raiding Winterfell is a boy's ploy to show the men he can play in the big leagues. A true commander knows not to extend themselves beyond their supply lines. It tends to make one isolated, surrounded by enemies, liable to drive anyone paranoid. Especially someone with a tarnished sense of self-worth.
Let's look back at AGoT, when Bran is taken prisoner by the wildlings on his first ride out of Winterfell. Theon takes the arrow shot, which we know he is more than capable of making, only to endure Robb's wrath for endangering Bran. Theon is expecting gratitude and is confused and angry when Robb doesn't provide what he is expecting. As Robb begins to march south from Winterfell, Theon rides on his left hand. Yet when provoked at the lack of respect from his Iron Born crew, he turns on the family that raised him higher than just an Iron Born captive son.
Ramsey's abuse is excessive but isn't burning two innocent lads to cover your own ineptitude excessive as well?
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