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Post by Envie on Feb 11, 2017 10:17:16 GMT -5
Most of you probably know (my signature image is a good giveaway) I am fond of the Triune theory of the Three Heads of the Dragon. After Jon was finally confirmed as Rhaegar's son at the end of season 6, my hopes for Tyrion to also be a Targaryen picked up a little confidence. There's not as much solid evidence from the books for Tyrion's heritage but there is some and enough it's still worth debating as we wait for Season 7. Here's a brief overview of the mix of clues from the books and the show combined to support the Tyrion is the son of Aerys theory: www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-confirmed-tyrion-theory_us_5726f98ae4b0b49df6ababa8Points supporting the theory: - It's written that King Aerys took sexual liberties with Joanna Lannister on her wedding night to Tywin (though that wouldn't have produced Tyrion since he's the youngest).
- Aerys was at a tourney where Joanna and Tywin were later the year prior to Tyrion's birth and was supposedly still smitten with her.
- Queen Rhaella supposedly dismissed Joanna from her court as a handmaiden due to the affair/obsession Aerys had with her.
- Tywin repeatedly said Tyrion was not his son but couldn't prove he wasn't.
- In the books Tyrion has white hair mixed with gold and one green eye, one black - at least suggesting maybe he's not all Lannister.
- Tyrion's childhood obsession with Dragons.
- Tyrion's instant acceptance by Rhaegal and Viserion as he frees them.
- Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon all having lost their Mothers at birth and being raised by other (not always loving) family.
- Tyrion being the key to bringing Jon and Daenerys together as allies... the ONLY person who knows them both as of Season 7.
*SPOILERS AHEAD...* (skip this and join the debate that doesn't need spoilers to discuss if you're avoiding spoilers) We already know for Season 7 that Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion meet and unite forces so there's a good chance some hints and reveals may come to light the way Jon's heritage has yet to be proven for the characters themselves even if we the audience already know it for certain. It could be possible we get more foreshadowing or clues not only about when Jon will learn of his Targaryen heritage but also Tyrion too... maybe! Regardless of whether Tyrion is a Lannster or a Targaryen (or both) - I believe Tyrion is definitely the key character that unites the Targaryens and Starks ... and possibly the Lannisters as well making him a very important character in Season 7. Do you think Season 7 will be the year of BIG reveals for Tyrion as well as Jon Snow? I know some in our group here dislike the theory of Tyrion as a Targaryen and are hoping he's actually the only true Lannister to survive as a better story and I can totally respect and agree with that as well. I'm about 60/40 when it comes to Tyrion Targaryen theories. A bit larger part of me thinks it would be cool for the symmetry between Jon, Dany and Tyrion while a lesser part of me hopes Tyrion's the only one who actually holds up the House Lannister honor in the end - possibly even if Tywin never really was his Father. Much as Jon is a bastard Stark child who is upholding the Stark name even though HIS Father wasn't a Stark... I could see Tyrion being the same - upholding the Lannister name despite being the bastard son of a Targaryen. That creates a three-headed Ouroborus similar to the one used in the Elder Scrolls lore for their online game: (in the ESO version it's a lion, dragon and eagle instead of a wolf, but still the same Norse-like Ouroborus circular concept) If Tyrion is actually half Targaryen and half Lannister, and Jon is half Targaryen, half Stark, then the three of them create a powerful House Triune to reunite Westeros once the Night King is defeated.
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Post by Lils on Feb 11, 2017 15:05:14 GMT -5
As much as I like the idea, I honestly don't think it will happen. Tywin's comments about Tyrion not being "his son" seemed more like his distaste with Tyrion as a whole and not wanting to be connected with him. If he genuinely believed that Tyrion wasn't his, he would have drowned him when he was born like he mentioned. It was a common practice back then, especially for those that were malformed at birth. Tywin didn't have to raise Tyrion, but did so because of his dedication to the Lannister house. It didn't mean he had to like Tyrion, it just meant that he was about to kill off another of his progeny. Tywin was extremely rigid about social norms, remember how he responded to his father's mistress. It can be argued that Tywin loved his wife so much that he'd overlook it, but I don't know.
Viserion and Rhaegal took to Tyrion because of something that Tyrion referenced before that scene. The dragons know who are friends of their mother and who aren't. Tyrion is on Daenerys' side, so they don't attack him. It's similar to how the direwolves respond to those that they sense of being a threat. Remember that Robb's direwolf growled at Jeyne Westerling's uncle or at the Freys? I think the dragons are being established as similar. They can see the true heart of the person.
Tyrion's obsession with the dragons doesn't really strike me as odd or foreshadowing of anything. Tyrion knowing both Jon and Dany doesn't also strike me as an indication that he is a Targaryen, just a means for Jon and Dany to ally themselves. There are parallels with the three of them, but it doesn't mean they are all related, just that they share a bond.
I think the biggest indicator that this won't happen is because we already have one secret Targaryen. It would be a bit redundant for there to be two. All of the comments "A Targaryen alone in the world" "House Targaryen is gone" seemed more like foreshadowing for Jon's ultimate reveal of being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. To suddenly turn around and do that with Tyrion seems a bit much. The surprise wouldn't be there anymore. It would become about as expected as our favorite characters dying.
It's possible for Tyrion to still be connected to Jon and Dany, but not be a Targaryen. If I had to absolutely guess who the third head of the dragon was, I'd say the child that Jon and Dany produce.
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Post by Envie on Feb 11, 2017 17:00:00 GMT -5
You make very good counterpoints and arguments that make sense Lils. That's why I posted, because I know there are logical and reasonable people in our little group here who can debate well and I appreciate seeing others perspective on certain theories. I remember when R+L=J was such a heated topic in some places you couldn't dare to hope for reasonable debate on it. That's not to say A+J=T holds as much validity as R+L=J because I don't think it has nearly the same amount of story support but still, you have to at least give it a go when someone points out pieces of the story that make sense in support of it. I agreed already that I think it's fair to say Tyrion can be involved centrally with Jon and Dany without also being a Targaryen and I think he is/will be the key player that brings them together in alliance. I also agree it's fair to say the dragons are friendly to those they know their Mother is friendly to as well. They never harmed anyone in Dany's immediate circle including Daario which to me at least indicates he probably wasn't going to betray her like many expected him to do. I'm not sure I agree as much with the idea it's redundant to have two secret Targaryens only because GRRM already put some redundancy in the story with the resurrection and secret Targ themes both if you remember. HBO decided (maybe wisely) to leave out both Lady Stoneheart and fAegon. But there they are, redundant themes played out later on a bigger scale with Jon Snow. Now the focus is on him rather than those side stories that use the same devices for similar purposes. It's not out of the realm of possibility that GRRM likewise made another hidden Targaryen too.
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Post by Lils on Feb 11, 2017 17:25:01 GMT -5
You make very good counterpoints and arguments that make sense Lils . That's why I posted, because I know there are logical and reasonable people in our little group here who can debate well and I appreciate seeing others perspective on certain theories. I remember when R+L=J was such a heated topic in some places you couldn't dare to hope for reasonable debate on it. That's not to say A+J=T holds as much validity as R+L=J because I don't think it has nearly the same amount of story support but still, you have to at least give it a go when someone points out pieces of the story that make sense in support of it. I agreed already that I think it's fair to say Tyrion can be involved centrally with Jon and Dany without also being a Targaryen and I think he is/will be the key player that brings them together in alliance. I also agree it's fair to say the dragons are friendly to those they know their Mother is friendly to as well. They never harmed anyone in Dany's immediate circle including Daario which to me at least indicates he probably wasn't going to betray her like many expected him to do. I'm not sure I agree as much with the idea it's redundant to have two secret Targaryens only because GRRM already put some redundancy in the story with the resurrection and secret Targ themes both if you remember. HBO decided (maybe wisely) to leave out both Lady Stoneheart and fAegon. But there they are, redundant themes played out later on a bigger scale with Jon Snow. Now the focus is on him rather than those side stories that use the same devices for similar purposes. It's not out of the realm of possibility that GRRM likewise made another hidden Targaryen too. It's possible. I wouldn't reject the idea. There was this really great gif set that I saw which showed the number of similarities that Dany/Jon/Tyrion had in common. I didn't even really know this was a popular theory until I saw the video on Alt Shift X. You make a good point with something that I agree with. GRRM follows the story where it goes. Some people claim it's too predictable that Jon and Dany will end up together. So the argument goes the other way as well. It would be predictable if Tyrion is a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean very much. He'd find a way to present it and make it plausible.
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Post by Envie on Feb 11, 2017 19:24:30 GMT -5
You make very good counterpoints and arguments that make sense Lils . That's why I posted, because I know there are logical and reasonable people in our little group here who can debate well and I appreciate seeing others perspective on certain theories. I remember when R+L=J was such a heated topic in some places you couldn't dare to hope for reasonable debate on it. That's not to say A+J=T holds as much validity as R+L=J because I don't think it has nearly the same amount of story support but still, you have to at least give it a go when someone points out pieces of the story that make sense in support of it. I agreed already that I think it's fair to say Tyrion can be involved centrally with Jon and Dany without also being a Targaryen and I think he is/will be the key player that brings them together in alliance. I also agree it's fair to say the dragons are friendly to those they know their Mother is friendly to as well. They never harmed anyone in Dany's immediate circle including Daario which to me at least indicates he probably wasn't going to betray her like many expected him to do. I'm not sure I agree as much with the idea it's redundant to have two secret Targaryens only because GRRM already put some redundancy in the story with the resurrection and secret Targ themes both if you remember. HBO decided (maybe wisely) to leave out both Lady Stoneheart and fAegon. But there they are, redundant themes played out later on a bigger scale with Jon Snow. Now the focus is on him rather than those side stories that use the same devices for similar purposes. It's not out of the realm of possibility that GRRM likewise made another hidden Targaryen too. It's possible. I wouldn't reject the idea. There was this really great gif set that I saw which showed the number of similarities that Dany/Jon/Tyrion had in common. I didn't even really know this was a popular theory until I saw the video on Alt Shift X. You make a good point with something that I agree with. GRRM follows the story where it goes. Some people claim it's too predictable that Jon and Dany will end up together. So the argument goes the other way as well. It would be predictable if Tyrion is a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean very much. He'd find a way to present it and make it plausible. There's of course far more symmetry and parallels between Jon and Dany and we're pretty sure we know why it was written that way ... but you can't deny Tyrion also went through some pretty similar obstacles he had to overcome - right down to hitting rock bottom and loathing himself after killing Shae and Tywin and escaping to Essos. He wanted to die, he wanted to give up - but his strength and vitality kept him going as it did Dany and Jon through their darkest hours. The "Triune" doesn't necessarily have to mean Tyrion's a Targaryen too (though I think it's great if he is) - it can simply mean they are the three main protagonists of the story who end up united at the end and work as a team to save the day. The way Season 7 is starting to shape up gives me a "Dream Team" feel for the future and yeah ... kinda a play on words there for "A Dream of Spring" eh?
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Feb 12, 2017 21:50:57 GMT -5
While having Tyrion be a secret Targaryen would be interesting, it's already being down with Jon Snow. I doubt Martin or even D&D would write it thus. However, it certainly brought about a questions when he freed the two dragons. I think when he bowed, they recognized him as one approaching in respect, with honor. Not as one coming to eat or fear.
I do think Bran and his warging will having something do to with the dragons. Perhaps once Viserion falls and becomes the Night King's steed, Bran can control or at least help bring him back under control.
It would be cool for Tyrion to get to ride a dragon, using his specially designed saddle adapted for dragon backs.
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Post by katjushka on Feb 12, 2017 22:39:44 GMT -5
I uded to love the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ and getting to ride a dragon and all but I don't see that happening anymore. I do still think that he's going to be important, he is close with Dany and has a friendship with Jon. They can be the three heads (I think that's again one of those phrases that has multiple meanings in the story) without being related or without actually riding dragons to battle.
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Post by Envie on Feb 13, 2017 5:33:07 GMT -5
While having Tyrion be a secret Targaryen would be interesting, it's already being down with Jon Snow. I doubt Martin or even D&D would write it thus. Don't forget though, Martin already did write in another 'secret Targaryen' ... Aegon. He's likely fake as everyone predicts and D&D excluded him from the show (probably because he's fake) to trim the fat from the story and focus on Jon as THE main secret Targaryen. Martin does repeat his themes (ie. resurrection from the Red priests was done three times in the books) so don't put it past him to repeat the secret Targaryen theme too. It's possible even if not probable in Tyrion's case. I do think Bran and his warging will having something do to with the dragons. An excellent counter-argument to which I always heartily agree and would be happy to see as the alternative 'third head' to the dragons if in fact it's going to mean someone literally riding (or warging) them. As katjushka points out though, the three heads doesn't have to be literal and could just be a figurative thing and even loosely indicate the triune I'm most fond of from my OP: Targaryen-Stark-Lannister unity! I uded to love the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ and getting to ride a dragon and all but I don't see that happening anymore. I do still think that he's going to be important, he is close with Dany and has a friendship with Jon. They can be the three heads (I think that's again one of those phrases that has multiple meanings in the story) without being related or without actually riding dragons to battle. I agree! As posted above, this is an excellent way to tie the three houses together in unity and still symbolically represent three heads of the dragon (all three under the Targaryen banner). ETA: "Three Heads" could also be very figurative in the sense that each of them could be head of their own households and families. Jon, Dany and Tyrion ... each raised in vastly different worlds and under house sigils that have been enemies their whole lives. To come together in the end as one team would be a very powerful story.
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Post by moiaf on Feb 13, 2017 11:00:23 GMT -5
I have to say that I've never liked the idea of Tyrion being a Targaryen. I get the appeal of it and can see where people would find details that can be used to speculated about it. However, I think as a character it's important that Tyrion be Tywin's son, given the complexity of their relationship. If Tyrion were to be Aerys' son I feel it takes away from his relationship to Tywin and in an odd way sort of justifies Tywin's behavior. Also, I don't think that the three heads have to necessarily be related in order to have the effect that they are suppose to have. It would add more nuance to the prophecy because for centuries those who knew about the prophecy assumed that the three heads had to be related, but what if they were wrong? What if they didn't have to be related but had to work together. The three houses being Stark, Targaryen and Lannister, Houses that were once allies (joined) and now are enemies. In order to survive these enemies must come together. It can also be that the translation was incorrect. Just like Aemon mentions that the word prince was mistranslated from Valyrian (dragon) what if the word dragon was mistranslated. Maybe it said the Three Heads of Kingdom and those who translated believed that meant dragons. If it's the Three Heads of the Kingdom then it would make sense that it be a Stark (close enough), a Targaryen and a Lannister because all three Houses at the time of the coming apocalypse hold themselves as the King/Queens of the land. ASOIAf is inspired by the War of the Roses, Henry Tutor's coat of arms included a red dragon, a white dog and a lion, i.e. all three of these Houses.
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Post by Envie on Feb 14, 2017 7:23:02 GMT -5
ASOIAf is inspired by the War of the Roses, Henry Tutor's coat of arms included a red dragon, a white dog and a lion, i.e. all three of these Houses. I always loved this symbolic reference from your other analysis posts on the topic - great reminder to support our growing theory that "Three heads" could, in fact, refer to the heads of the three main houses left at the end of the story. Your point about Tyrion being truly Tywin's son to give more impact to the tragedy of their relationship (and Tyrion killing Tywin) is also really valid and probably a stronger argument (to me) why I should adjust my expectations for Tyrion as a Targ bastard back down to the original 50/50% I used to keep it at! I only recently started liking the theory all over again due to some theory videos I have watched while bored. It's easy to go down the rabbit-hole of conspiracy crafting when someone makes a convincing enough argument and theory video or essay with good evidence! Do I really want Tyrion to be a Targaryen? Maybe that's why I posted this thread - to help decide if my desire for Tyrion to be 'family' with Daenerys and Jon actually needs any sort of blood tie. Does it? No, I don't think it does at this point. I'm actually going to be happy for him either way because I think he's finally found a place to belong and do good for Westeros.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Feb 14, 2017 10:14:17 GMT -5
Where do I begin? I have probably written more about the topic of Tyrion as a Targ bastard and third head of the dragon than any other topic (on the "other" board -- not here). Let me try to address some of the point raised above. There are plenty of clues that Tyrion is a Targ -- both in the main books and some big clues is TWOIAF. I can go into them if anyone wants, but basically, the clues would have to be a huge coincidence (seems unlikely, as GRRM seemed to go out of his way to plant clues in TWOIAF, such as Joanna being in KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth, Joanna being a rumored lover of Aerys during their youth and even that Aegon V's wife, Betha Blackwood, had black hair -- explaining the black streaks in Tyrion's hair -- to go along with his otherwise pale blond hair, much lighter than other Lannisters who have golden blond hair). Or if the apparent clues are not an unintended coincidence (which really seems unlikely, as GRRM is too careful a writer for that), GRRM would have to be "punking" his most loyal readers with these false clues UNLESS Tryion really is the biological son of Aerys. And GRRM does not seem to be the kind of writer to mislead his readers that way. He likes red herrings, of course, but merely a multitude of dead-end clues that are not meant to be an alternative, but incorrect, solution to a mystery, but rather merely meant to trick the readers with no real payoff, does not seem consistent with GRRM's writing style (he also has said he does not "lie" to his readers but planting all the clues in one direction and then have the solution be something totally different). As to whether the Tywin/Tyrion relationship is "ruined" by having Tyrion not be Tywin's biological son? Personally, I have never really understood that argument very well. I have heard it dozens of times, but the argument always seems more connected to personal preference rather than GRRM's writing style or story construction. I like to try to spell out my point in the following way: assume that Tyrion being a Targ bastard is central to the endgame in some manner -- and GRRM had planned that "twist" from the beginning (just for the sake of argument, assume that fact to be true for the moment). Now consider the Tywin/Tyrion relationship. Given GRRM knew that the plot point of Tyrion as Targ bastard was coming, would GRRM have written the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion differently? I don't see how. So if the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion would be written the same regardless whether Tyrion is the biological son of Tywin or Aerys, then how can the nature of the relationship be evidence for one theory over the other? That relationship has to be written the way it was written no matter the resolution of the identity of Tyrion's biological father -- so evaluating the relationship cannot be evidence that Tywin is the biological father. Now I understand that after a reveal of Tyrion as Targ bastard, the nature of the Tywin/Tyrion relationship likely will be reevaluated by many readers -- but that type of reevaluation is precisely the type of plot development that GRRM seems to love. The notion that if Tyrion is going to be a Targ bastard that GRRM would not have written the Tywin/Tyrion relationship the way that it is written does not hold up as no alternative seems preferable or more logical under that circumstance. Finally, let me address the three heads of the dragon issue. This post is already getting too long, so I will try to be brief. The prophecy indicates that the dragon must have three heads. Could it be a mistranslation (the "kingdom" rather than the "dragon")? Perhaps, but the leaks indicate that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. This leak indicates fairly strongly that Jon on the show is to be regarded as a genuine Targ and not a Stark. So the triad concept of Targ/Stark/Lannister does not really work. And in ASOIAF, prophecy seems to be "seen" by the prophet in a symbolic way. So the prophet might misunderstand when seeing a dragon being the promised savior as the "prince that was promised" when it could also be the "princess that was promised" (as dragons have no gender), but to see a dragon with three heads and not understand that it was referencing the entire kingdom rather than three leaders coming from a "dragon house" seems weak. Moreover, the Kingdom of Westeros is not described by anyone as being a "dragon" at any time. Only the Targs are ever referred to as dragons. So the prophet seeing a dragon with three heads -- with the dragon representing the Kingdom of Westeros simply is not consistent with how prophecy has been used throughout ASOIAF. And if the "dragon" must have three heads -- then the three heads must be "of the dragon" -- i.e., must be Targ or child of a Targ. Dany and Jon seem to be understood by most readers who have analyzed the prophecy to be two of the three heads. By process of elimination, Tyrion seems to be the only real candidate for the third head -- and taken together with the other clues (some of which, but certainly not all of which, are discussed above), Tyrion as Targ bastard seems rather likely. One last point (sorry, I know I wrote "Finally" at the start of the prior paragraph) -- will Tyrion ride a dragon? I really don't know. Assuming the leaks are correct that Viserion is killed and becomes wight-Viserion, Tyrion certainly won't be riding Viserion into battle along side Jon and Dany on their mounts. And a dragon can only have one rider bound to the dragon as long as both rider and dragon live. So (assuming Jon bonds with Rhaegal, which seems likely but not certain) either Tyrion as Targ is central to the endgame in some other way (a possibility) or what seems another alternative is that Jon or Dany (seems more likely to be Dany) dies right before victory and Tyrion become the new rider on the dragon and is able to assist the other surviving Targ to defeat the WW. I am not very good at predicting specific plot developments, so I won't really try -- so how Tyrion as Targ bastard becomes important to the story I cannot really take a firm position -- but I am leaning heavily in favor of the theory that it does in some way. But if Tyrion is really a Targ bastard, this plot development will NOT be revealed in Season 7. If Tyrion is the biological son of Aerys, this fact will not be revealed on the show until Season 8 (have patience my friends -- 2018 will be here eventually).
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Post by Envie on Mar 6, 2017 6:07:52 GMT -5
Finally coming back around to this discussion (as I will from time to time as I ponder theories more). I want to thank you for the great response UnmaskedLurker and I hope you'll continue to join us for more debates and discussions as we draw closer to Season 7! Here are some of my responses to yours: He likes red herrings, of course, but merely a multitude of dead-end clues that are not meant to be an alternative, but incorrect, solution to a mystery, but rather merely meant to trick the readers with no real payoff, does not seem consistent with GRRM's writing style (he also has said he does not "lie" to his readers but planting all the clues in one direction and then have the solution be something totally different). Like you, I have never felt GRRM's many plots and sub-plots were just convoluted ways to cover up the 'truth' nor do I think he uses a lot of red herrings though there are a few. There were plenty of folks who claimed for years on end that the R+L=J clues were all just red-herrings and purposely misleading fans. It caused a great deal of passion/hostility in many fan groups and was even the main reason I left westeros.org many years ago. I enjoy debating possibilities with an open mind and feel it does the writer a disservice when fans become angry and hostile about exploring those alternatives. Fortunately we have a safe place here in the house with the red door and can freely express our like or dislike for theories without fear of being judged or disliked for it. GRRM does not lie. He writes a lot of subplots and side-stories to help obscure the main ones but it's all there if one really takes a deeper look. Dan and Dave knew it and have included a great many of those clues and symbolic bits and pieces in the show - to the extent I think we can read a great deal into some of the iconic quotes they gave the actors/characters over the years leading up to the grand finale coming in Season 7 and 8. Tyrion most definitely plays a significant role in the ending of ASOIAF regardless of his true heritage either way. I like to try to spell out my point in the following way: assume that Tyrion being a Targ bastard is central to the endgame in some manner -- and GRRM had planned that "twist" from the beginning (just for the sake of argument, assume that fact to be true for the moment). Now consider the Tywin/Tyrion relationship. Given GRRM knew that the plot point of Tyrion as Targ bastard was coming, would GRRM have written the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion differently? I don't see how. So if the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion would be written the same regardless whether Tyrion is the biological son of Tywin or Aerys, then how can the nature of the relationship be evidence for one theory over the other? That relationship has to be written the way it was written no matter the resolution of the identity of Tyrion's biological father -- so evaluating the relationship cannot be evidence that Tywin is the biological father. This is an excellent counter-point I hadn't considered. The one niggling doubt I've always had in accepting any Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard theory is that Tywin and Tyrion's complex and tragic relationship was significant to the overall irony of it. Despising Tyrion even as his own flesh and blood felt much more tragic for Tywin especially when it seems Tyrion inherited all of the best leadership qualities from Tywin that Jaime and Cersei never had and never will have. Had Tywin been able to overcome his revulsion/hate for Tyrion, he could have made Tyrion his heir (and it felt like at times he was hinting at it with the responsibilities he gave Tyrion). But then again, it's a double ironic twist if Tywin was actually accepting Tyrion despite his suspicions that Tyrion was Aerys' son and not his own. Maybe Tywin was trying to overcome that hatred for Aerys by grooming Tyrion to lead and that his love for his wife Joanna overcame the revulsion for Tyrion's existence (and death of Joanna). An equally tragic and significant plot twist. Regardless of which way the shoe drops on Tyrion's true identity, the relationship with Tywin was destined to be the way it was as Tywin was clearly divided on his feelings about Tyrion and was equal parts abusive and yet giving to Tyrion. He put Tyrion in charge of King's Landing - that has to count for something and even Tyrion was amazed and had a glimmer of hope! So the prophet seeing a dragon with three heads -- with the dragon representing the Kingdom of Westeros simply is not consistent with how prophecy has been used throughout ASOIAF. And if the "dragon" must have three heads -- then the three heads must be "of the dragon" -- i.e., must be Targ or child of a Targ. Dany and Jon seem to be understood by most readers who have analyzed the prophecy to be two of the three heads. By process of elimination, Tyrion seems to be the only real candidate for the third head -- and taken together with the other clues (some of which, but certainly not all of which, are discussed above), Tyrion as Targ bastard seems rather likely. I gave the alternate theory/solution of the three heads as leaders of Westeros as a softer way to explain the possibility without Tyrion's true identity ever really being realized (perhaps by the audience/readers but not the characters). I enjoy the triune theory far more in the sense that Targaryen, Stark and Lannister all three play very central roles in the overall story from start to finish. It has a very nice symmetry to it. Up to this point everyone's been convinced Jon Snow will remain loyal to his Stark heritage (and he may) so his Targaryen lineage is really only a symbolic reference at best in the reality of the "kingdom" until we're proven otherwise in Seasons 7 and 8 (or Winds of Winter releases). The same could be said of Tyrion. While possible he could be yet another Targaryen, his Lannister blood and heritage remains the stronger part of his identity and likely who he remains until the end. I would never see Tyrion suddenly deciding to become Tyrion Targaryen outwardly - it's not fitting with his personality at all. He's a pragmatist and exists in the reality of the present. He's never 'believed' in much of anything (until he joined forces with Daenerys) so I don't see him believing in his own mixed heritage as some sort of life-altering event. Same for Jon Snow - who may end up together with Daenerys and realizing his own Targaryen heritage - or even becoming king. He'll still be Jon Snow and a Stark at heart. That's the beauty of the triune to me.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Mar 6, 2017 10:23:38 GMT -5
Question: In light of the fact it appears Viserion will become the Night Kings' steed, does the 'dragon must have three heads' still apply? Or is it simply an acknowledgment that the Prince who was Promised must come the Targaryen line?
If we accept, on the show, the rumor for Season 7 of Viserion becoming a wight dragon, then the only two heads needed will be Jon and Dany. Once Viserion is changed, the only person who can reach the dragon would be Bran, who we know is a true Stark.
Personally I want Tyrion and Tywin to be father-son. It makes the relationship between them understandable. I do think at some place inside him, Tywin knows the dwarf is the best of the three in terms of understanding power. He would never have sent Tyrion to King's Landing as Hand while he was occupied in the Riverland if he didn't trust in Tyrion holding down the fort until he could arrive. However, appreciating and supporting are often vastly different animals. It might be that tinge of doubt about Tyrion's parentage which holds him back, but it is played up as his dwarfism.
Interesting, if he weren't a dwarf, Tywin might have named Tyrion his heir. Easier to accept the spawn of a madman than a dwarf, if that spawn is capable of playing the game.
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Post by Envie on Mar 6, 2017 19:31:39 GMT -5
If we accept, on the show, the rumor for Season 7 of Viserion becoming a wight dragon, then the only two heads needed will be Jon and Dany. Once Viserion is changed, the only person who can reach the dragon would be Bran, who we know is a true Stark. This is definitely a sticking point to any sort of literal translation of the dragon must have three heads ... unless ... (and this might bake your noodle) What if the Night King rides Viserion-the-Undead and is himself a Targaryen from ages ago when the Children turned him?!
Yes I've actually read that theory somewhere. I personally don't like the literal translation theories nearly as much as the symbolic ones though. Interesting, if he weren't a dwarf, Tywin might have named Tyrion his heir. Easier to accept the spawn of a madman than a dwarf, if that spawn is capable of playing the game. See that's the funny part to me. Does Tywin strike you as the type of man who would hold a physical disability against his son? He didn't hold the loss of Jaime's hand against him that much. Hating Tyrion because he's a dwarf seems petty and not in line with Tywin's character to be honest. I always wondered what it was about Tyrion that Tywin loathed so much. I honestly think it was more about Joanna dying giving birth to him than it was about Tyrion's dwarfism. BUT - add in the doubt (Tywin probably never knew for certain) about Tyrion's paternity and you definitely have a stronger case for hating him, wouldn't you think? Tywin clearly says as much on the issue:
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Post by Envie on Mar 6, 2017 20:17:23 GMT -5
Since I'm a big fan of the triune symbolism ... here's another one:
"Our fathers were evil men, all of us here. They left the world worse than they found it.
We’re not going to do that. We’re going to leave the world better than we found it." - Daenerys Targaryen
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