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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Mar 6, 2017 20:34:36 GMT -5
This is definitely a sticking point to any sort of literal translation of the dragon must have three heads ... unless ... (and this might bake your noodle) What if the Night King rides Viserion-the-Undead and is himself a Targaryen from ages ago when the Children turned him?!
I kid you not, I almost added this to my post. I've thought about that, who the Night King was before he was turned. I thought he was one of the first men, which actually lends more to him being a Stark or some other Northern family. It's a conundrum I can't want to see reconciled. I always wondered what it was about Tyrion that Tywin loathed so much. I honestly think it was more about Joanna dying giving birth to him than it was about Tyrion's dwarfism. Considering how deeply Tywin loved Joanna, this is my guess for most likely reason. From A Wiki of Ice and Fire: "There were rumors that Joanna gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, and that she briefly became Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings." If Aerys had his way with Joanna, I believe it was before she wed Tywin. From all accounts, they had a true love match, which accounts for Tywin's inability to bond with the infant who's birth killed her. That fact Tyrion was a dwarf only added insult to injury.
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Post by Envie on Mar 6, 2017 20:41:44 GMT -5
I've thought about that, who the Night King was before he was turned. I thought he was one of the first men, which actually lends more to him being a Stark or some other Northern family. I think you're probably right on the money here to be honest. While the wild theories fly about who the Night King is/was ... it doesn't make as much logistical sense for him to have been a Targaryen as much as a northerner or even moreso a Stark from a symbolic storytelling standpoint. Only the Three Eyed Raven is another mystery character too, being most think he's probably Bloodraven - a Targaryen bastard. Targaryens exist up north and woven carefully into the story (Aemon Targaryen too).
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Mar 6, 2017 20:49:19 GMT -5
Targaryens exist up north and woven carefully into the story (Aemon Targaryen too). Very true! Although I thought one of the producers said the Three Eyed Raven wasn't Bloodraven, just a 'representative' character. Which makes no sense, except to them. We also have Benjen, who was saved the same way, and hasn't turned yet. There has to be more to the process than just dragonglass in the heart. What protected Benjen from the same fate?
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Mar 7, 2017 9:43:23 GMT -5
Question: In light of the fact it appears Viserion will become the Night Kings' steed, does the 'dragon must have three heads' still apply? Or is it simply an acknowledgment that the Prince who was Promised must come the Targaryen line? If we accept, on the show, the rumor for Season 7 of Viserion becoming a wight dragon, then the only two heads needed will be Jon and Dany. Once Viserion is changed, the only person who can reach the dragon would be Bran, who we know is a true Stark. Personally I want Tyrion and Tywin to be father-son. It makes the relationship between them understandable. I do think at some place inside him, Tywin knows the dwarf is the best of the three in terms of understanding power. He would never have sent Tyrion to King's Landing as Hand while he was occupied in the Riverland if he didn't trust in Tyrion holding down the fort until he could arrive. However, appreciating and supporting are often vastly different animals. It might be that tinge of doubt about Tyrion's parentage which holds him back, but it is played up as his dwarfism. Interesting, if he weren't a dwarf, Tywin might have named Tyrion his heir. Easier to accept the spawn of a madman than a dwarf, if that spawn is capable of playing the game. In my view, the "dragon" in the prophecy has to be House Targ. Dragon in this context cannot really mean anything else. The fate of the "real" dragons is beside the point -- they are not the "dragons" referenced in the prophecy (animals in prophecies have always been references to people connected to Houses (e.g., JonCon is seen in prophecy as a Griffin) or other groups (such as in the STMTW -- the stallion symbolizes the leader of the Dothraki) symbolized by the animal -- and not the animal itself). The point is that the dragon must have three "heads" -- in other words, the only way I can make sense of the prophecy, is that for the world to be saved, three individuals of Targ ancestry (i.e., "of the dragon") must come together to lead the Battle for the Dawn 2.0 (i.e., be the "heads"). I am not asserting that Jon, Dany and Tyrion will be the only important players in the battle. Of course others, such as the Stark children (presumably, especially Bran, given his powers) will be important. But the "heads" will be "of the dragon". As to the Tywin/Tyrion relationship, I don't really have much to add from my prior post. I merely ask you the same question -- assuming GRRM had intended for Tyrion to be the biological son of Aerys all along, in what way would he have written the Tywin/Tyrion relationship any differently? I contend that GRRM had to write the relationship as he did no matter whether Tyrion is all Lannister or Targ bastard. So "wanting" Tywin to be the bio-dad is sort-of beside the point (as GRRM is writing based on his outline from over 20 years ago which would have included this critical plot point -- assuming it is part of the plot -- long before he ever got down to writing the details of the Tywin/Tyrion relationship). Tywin named Tyrion acting hand because Tywin had no real alternative -- not out of any real respect but perhaps an acknowledgement that Tyrion is capable. But Tywin made sure that Tyrion got no recognition for his actions. Tywin is willing to use Tyrion to Tywin's ends -- but I don't agree that Tywin "trusts" Tyrion -- Tywin simply knows Tyrion well enough to know that Tyrion was the best choice for acting hand available at the time. But if Tywin really trusted Tyrion, Tywin would have treated Tyrion better after Tywin arrived at KL. As for what I think is Tywin's biggest objection to Tyrion -- embarrassment. Tywin would not care that Tyrion is a dwarf if the rest of Westeros did not consider Tyrion to be a humiliation for Tywin. So all of the theories that Tywin should not be personally prejudiced against a dwarf is beside the point, Tywin only cares about appearances. Tywin sleeps with whores -- but keeps it very secret. Tywin is upset that everyone knows about Tyrion's whoring, not that Tyrion sleeps with whores. Of course, if Tywin knows or even suspects that Tyrion is the biological son of Aerys, Tywin could never allow Tyrion to be named as heir to CR.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Mar 7, 2017 9:56:06 GMT -5
This is definitely a sticking point to any sort of literal translation of the dragon must have three heads ... unless ... (and this might bake your noodle) What if the Night King rides Viserion-the-Undead and is himself a Targaryen from ages ago when the Children turned him?!
I kid you not, I almost added this to my post. I've thought about that, who the Night King was before he was turned. I thought he was one of the first men, which actually lends more to him being a Stark or some other Northern family. It's a conundrum I can't want to see reconciled. I always wondered what it was about Tyrion that Tywin loathed so much. I honestly think it was more about Joanna dying giving birth to him than it was about Tyrion's dwarfism. Considering how deeply Tywin loved Joanna, this is my guess for most likely reason. From A Wiki of Ice and Fire: "There were rumors that Joanna gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, and that she briefly became Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings." If Aerys had his way with Joanna, I believe it was before she wed Tywin. From all accounts, they had a true love match, which accounts for Tywin's inability to bond with the infant who's birth killed her. That fact Tyrion was a dwarf only added insult to injury. I think that the NK came into being before there even was a House Targaryen and certainly before any Targ ever stepped foot on Westeros (being from Valyria on Essos). I think that the clues that the NK is a Stark are quite strong (tales of Old Nan, I think) -- the clues of being a Targ, non-existent (as far as I know). As far as "love match" -- the evidence seems to be that Tywin deeply loved Joanna. Whether the feelings were mutual is less clear -- there really is no evidence that Joanna felt the same for Tywin. But as far as Tywin's feeling toward Tyrion, I suppose Joanna's feelings toward Tywin are irrelevant. Nevertheless, I am not sure that someone as sophisticated as Tywin appears to be would think that an infant is personally responsible for the death of his mother. But the association -- and the superstitions of Westeros -- still could have an effect on Tywin. I agree that the initial affair between Aerys and Joanna was before her marriage to Tywin. Less clear whether it continued after the marriage and while Joanna was a lady-in-waiting to the Queen. Some suggestion was that Joanna was sent back to CR by the Queen to put an end to the affair (others speculate that the Queen was merely protecting Joanna from having the continually fend of the King's advances). Either way, what is clear is that Joanna visited KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth -- and Aerys seems to express some continued interest in Joanna at that time. Thus, from Aerys's point of view, the means, motive and opportunity for a sexual encounter between Aerys and Joanna at a time that could have led to the conception of Tyrion exists.
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Post by sercreighton on Mar 7, 2017 11:19:54 GMT -5
I kid you not, I almost added this to my post. I've thought about that, who the Night King was before he was turned. I thought he was one of the first men, which actually lends more to him being a Stark or some other Northern family. It's a conundrum I can't want to see reconciled. Considering how deeply Tywin loved Joanna, this is my guess for most likely reason. From A Wiki of Ice and Fire: "There were rumors that Joanna gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, and that she briefly became Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings." If Aerys had his way with Joanna, I believe it was before she wed Tywin. From all accounts, they had a true love match, which accounts for Tywin's inability to bond with the infant who's birth killed her. That fact Tyrion was a dwarf only added insult to injury. I think that the NK came into being before there even was a House Targaryen and certainly before any Targ ever stepped foot on Westeros (being from Valyria on Essos). I think that the clues that the NK is a Stark are quite strong (tales of Old Nan, I think) -- the clues of being a Targ, non-existent (as far as I know). As far as "love match" -- the evidence seems to be that Tywin deeply loved Joanna. Whether the feelings were mutual is less clear -- there really is no evidence that Joanna felt the same for Tywin. But as far as Tywin's feeling toward Tyrion, I suppose Joanna's feelings toward Tywin are irrelevant. Nevertheless, I am not sure that someone as sophisticated as Tywin appears to be would think that an infant is personally responsible for the death of his mother. But the association -- and the superstitions of Westeros -- still could have an effect on Tywin. I agree that the initial affair between Aerys and Joanna was before her marriage to Tywin. Less clear whether it continued after the marriage and while Joanna was a lady-in-waiting to the Queen. Some suggestion was that Joanna was sent back to CR by the Queen to put an end to the affair (others speculate that the Queen was merely protecting Joanna from having the continually fend of the King's advances). Either way, what is clear is that Joanna visited KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth -- and Aerys seems to express some continued interest in Joanna at that time. Thus, from Aerys's point of view, the means, motive and opportunity for a sexual encounter between Aerys and Joanna at a time that could have led to the conception of Tyrion exists. It's funny because I agree and disagree with the highlighted, you already know where I stand on Tyrion so it does not need to be addressed. What I can say about Tyrion, is that Lions who are not what they appear appears to be a trend. My belief and I am pretty locked in on this and it's not really something I expect to see in the show, is that the Night King is a Casterly. I think there are a lot of clues that point to this actually, and I mean really solid clues. I have written about here to an extent and laid down some pretty strong evidence. Now the Starks are a little trickier but their origin is kind of unique. They seem to have some strong relation to the Casterly's, weather they were a natural opposition to them, or some connection through Winterfell, or even related to them. The grey areas of history makes it kind of tough to get an accurate timeline, so I tend to look at an order of events from a period. There is something very counter intuitive about Brandon the builder and the Castles of Westeros. He was the first Stark and he appears to be from the age of Hero's but there were so many Brandons and I am not sure how many of them are mixed up. Brando reminds me a little of Azur in that he is kinda of all over the place during a certain period times and doing an awful lot of very long term projects. Like the Wall, Winterfell and Stormsend. There is also this oddity of the round towers, it's not like Martin does not know he is putting these buildings in what appears to be out of sink construction. The Andals are the ones said to have introduced round towers and Martin went out of his way to make a point of this. So Stormsend, and The First Keep appear to be strangely our of order. Like with Winterfell you have the round first keep built on what appears to have been a ring fort, then the square towers came later, and then the round towers. If you would like any of the evidence related to the Night King, Starks and the Casterly's I can look it up, it's on here somewhere. I have this weird idea that the Starks are kind of like the Targaryen's or Valyrians, they have a unique coloring, are closer to a pure line like the Targs some of them seem to have unique gifts, Dragons and Dire Wolves, Greensight and Dragon dreams. If you look there is plenty of Valyrian blood out there, same for first men blood, but within these two houses we see sort of see very similar unique unique lines of Magic. Of course one is related to the cold and one fire. Now getting with the prophecies, I actually wrote a little something last night, or really just connected some dots, not much writing just a few quotes. This connects of course to Starks and Targs, though I didn't really bring Tyrion into it, though like I said before if you want the stuff on essentially lions or Lions not being what they appear to be I can get that for you. I will post the stuff on Azur, and the prophecies because I know where it is at right now. I also did a visual on symbolism with Lions and Horned lords I can Link you too. While not directly connected to Tyrion, I think the basic ideas sort of support your Tyrion stance. It's mostly just symbolism and metaphors. It may not be big support, it's a lot of little things really. This was written directly to another poster on the counter parts thread, so just ignore some of the phrasing or directed comments, you can skip it of course but it's here if anyone wants to look at it. I tend to read a lot of theories because you never know what you will find that could help you or maybe something you are writing. I think the Casterly stuff and Lion symbolism would probably be more up your alley, but generally the structure, themes and principals of what I write does not change, it is just tends to focus on different characters or histories. So one of these you know all to well but I was thinking about it tonight for some reason and I thought I would connect a dot. It also shows how they represent counterparts.
"Your dragons will be a flaming sword over the world"
So we have the first flaming sword.
"Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared."
Then the second flaming sword in both cases the metaphor for the dragons and Jon's symbolic dream show the flaming sword and they both symbolize house Targaryen. Dany's dragons similar to agons three dragons, and Jon's black and red color and flaming sword. Martin sets up the imagery back to back in the books as well. But both these images have complimentary myths as well.
So first, you have an old standard. Dany and the sun and moon.
“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.” The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.” Now as you well know Xaro compares the 3 dragons to a flaming sword, they also symbolize the three heads of the dragon of house Targaryen much like Aegon and his sisters Dragons.
Now two myths exist about that pair of moons. So the second moon, and complimentary counter part to Dany's story.
Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.
"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.
"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."
In many ways and given the events of the books it's almost identical to Dany's story and her events with Drogo.
Now a little something I have saved do you know who Guncer Sunglass is? He is sacrificed by Mel to help lead Stannis to victory on the Blackwater which does not work.
But take a good look at Guncer Sunglass. First his name Sunglass. Second Guncer is knows to wear several moonstones, his sigil is white with 7 stars.
Sun and Moon, Glass and Stone. You could probably also imply dragonglass without stretching it much, and of course a sacrifice for a fake Azor with a Fake Lightbringer to defeat Joff a Fake horned lord who is actually a Lion.
Now note the first person Mel wanted to Sacrifice to lead Stannis to victory was a Storm. But we end up with some decent sun and moon symbolism with Guncer.
So again with Mythos we see Martin Parallel it with Jon and Dany and it appears use it as some form of foreshadowing. The philosophy of the unity of opposition always seems to be in play for martin and you can kind of see that within both characters and the overall story, and like History the Unity of opposition can sort of repeat but it's usually changed from events. You know the idea that history does not repeat but it rhymes. Weather it is Azur and Nissa, or The Night King and Queen, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Dany and Drogo, Stannis and Mel, Maiden and Lion, Ice and Fire. Another thing I think that does not really get addressed enough and this about the unity of opposition and something me and moiaf used to call the obscure and the obvious. I am name dropping you moiaf. But of the above examples change is always important, and so is changing symbolism. Three of the obvious ones are Dany, Jon and Stannis but I do think Tyrion fits in here as well. The simple idea that symbolism can change or be obscured. Cersei's children, Jon's parents, Dany's pre pyre moon symbolism heavily changed after the pyre, Stannis and the burning heart. I feel the same way about Tyrion and the Night King, there is this idea that Martin would not over use it, but he does it all the time because it's not so much about being hidden, as it is about change. It's not like we don't see hidden Lions, or Hidden Targs, or changing suns to moons and moons to suns. Martin just likes to obscure things, make you think and make you looks closely. That's always been one of the hollow arguments against Tyrion, Martin wouldn't do two secret Targs. Well he appears to have done a good amount of hidden Lions, while we may know Cersei's kids are not really Stags, they are still shrouded within story. Within story they are not who they are projected as. I feel the same holds true for ancient Stark History and the Night King and the Casterly's. For all we know as Bran once said, they may have been Lions once and that opening shot of Tyrion above the door like one of those Gargoyles Bran will later reference as Lions seems like a Give away. Later on what do we find in the first keep? Lions. It's Tyrion that commented that Winterfell has always been ruled by a Stark, but before it was Winterfell, when it was just a singular Tower, who ruled it? Who were they? If he can obscure the symbolism of characters, he can do it with a Castle just as easily.
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Post by sercreighton on Mar 7, 2017 12:06:38 GMT -5
Here is one for the Tyrion Targaryen fans and it's much more direct. Lions play a big part in the series as their symbolism does and we know Tyrion and Dany will meet in the books eventually and have on the show. So in the book, we see some imagery in Game, mostly in Kings but it stays around through Dance, and that is Dany the Dragon who sometimes looks like a Lion. When Dany Don's here Hrakkar fur, you have a Dragon that looks like a Lion, now it has symbolic ties to history, it has foreshadowing, but the point is that imagery and symbolism already exists in the books. A Dragon can look like a Lion. And that Lion imagery will follow her. But Dany is a dragon. I like to use the Gold company as an example here as well, "beneath the gold, the bitter steel." The bitter steel is a Dragon, a bastard, now what is beneath Tyrions Lannister Gold? There we have two examples of Dragons being obscured and we know both Lions and Gold are related to the Lannisters, we also know that Martin has used gold as shroud at least twice.
If you understand how Martin uses literary devices if you pick up on his themes and beliefs, and listen to what he has said you will be guided in the right direction. I am sorry if I seem like I am hammering this home, but it's not just about Tyrion for me but the entire series and a very strong belief I have in the literary devices, themes and structure of the series, and honestly it has paid a lot of dividends in helping me understand the series.
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Post by Envie on Mar 7, 2017 12:25:43 GMT -5
When Dany Don's here Hrakkar fur, you have a Dragon that looks like a Lion, now it has symbolic ties to history, it has foreshadowing, but the point is that imagery and symbolism already exists in the books. A Dragon can look like a Lion. And that Lion imagery will follow her. But Dany is a dragon. I like to use the Gold company as an example here as well, "beneath the gold, the bitter steel." The bitter steel is a Dragon, a bastard, now what is beneath Tyrions Lannister Gold? There we have two examples of Dragons being obscured and we know both Lions and Gold are related to the Lannisters, we also know that Martin has used gold as shroud at least twice. Love this! It's true GRRM loves to obscure things often in plain sight yet hidden behind lots of great symbolism. The show writers have done a good job of following Mr. Martin's lead on that symbolic obscurity on many occasions where we go back and extract them out to support a specific plot twist. The Night King and White Walkers having been created by the Children of the Forest themselves is a great example of that obscurity with amazing visual symbolism and hidden mysteries yet to be solved. Their corpse-art, the spiral, circle of life, etc. Much of which many of us have discussed and uncovered at length in the symbolism thread - which remains one of my favorite threads despite not winning a golden dragon for it. housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/6/parallels-symbolism-game-thrones
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Post by Envie on Apr 7, 2017 13:10:45 GMT -5
Sometimes a small man can cast a very long shadow ...
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Apr 7, 2017 18:33:46 GMT -5
You know what I find interesting?
Of these three, only Tyrion actually knew the main instigator of all these machinations, Rhaegar, even though the other two are blood relatives of his. Once Jon's heritage is revealed it would be interesting to hear Tyrion's thoughts on Jon as compared to his true father. I know Jon sees himself through a 'Ned' filter, the only father he ever knew. And Jon is an honorable man, as was Ned Stark.
What can be said about Jon in regards to Rhaegar? He's and excellent fighter? He's moody? He has great hair?
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Post by Envie on Apr 7, 2017 18:58:00 GMT -5
What can be said about Jon in regards to Rhaegar? He's and excellent fighter? "When your brother Rhaegar led his army into battle at the Trident, men died for him because they believed in him, because they loved him. I fought beside the last dragon on that day, your Grace. I bled beside him." Barristan Selmy Barristan Selmy: "Viserys never told you?"Daenerys Targaryen: "He told me Rhaegar was good at killing people."Barristan Selmy: "Rhaegar never liked killing. He loved singing."
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