Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
9
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:41:58 GMT -5
It is not a double standard. I'm sure both hanging and beheading are horrible ways to go, but are you seriously going to say that they are no better than being burnt alive? What Nic said but also this: You're suggesting that Jon hanging the mutineers is more justified than Dany burning the slavers is a double standard. The slavers literally covered children in honey and threw them at bears for entertainment (books) and of course there entire treatment of the Unsullied. Whatever the form of execution, at the end of the day it's execution. No, I'm talking purely about methods here. They might have been despicable human beings, but imo burning someone alive regardless of their crime is pretty cruel. Two wrongs don't make a right.
|
|
inherit
22
0
Dec 15, 2019 11:52:11 GMT -5
1,366
King Tommen
539
Jun 22, 2016 21:50:44 GMT -5
June 2016
kingtommen
|
Post by King Tommen on May 23, 2017 13:44:34 GMT -5
Dany has her own followers and counsellors who love and respect her telling her that sometimes, maybe, she is punishing the people who wronged her too harshly. That's not me, that's the show.
I really don't understand the defensiveness. It's obviously a part of Dany's story that's being emphasized. They wouldn't have characters questioning her judgement and her actions if it wasn't. I am still very much Team Dany, I don't have a problem with her and I understand why she does the things she does. I am merely pointing out that the show and the books very clearly want you to think about the depths of her ruthlessness as a potential future problem for her. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 13:45:01 GMT -5
Ok, didn't Tyrion say, "It's all killing people." This ties into the theory of medieval justice. Which for most was carried out locally without trial or even a sheriff. It's also my argument against Targeryan heredity. The power to hand out life or death should never be taken light, no matter what the method of execution. Dany has a lot of power, and in those moments when she become enraged, that has a tendency to take first thoughts. Luckily she has had good councilors around her to remind her that she might want to take a second thought, which always led to a better solution. And of course Dany still has to learn and grow but she knows that, which is the most important step. In both the books and the show (the books more) she's always seeking other people's council. She knows she lacks education and experience but is not afraid to listen to everyone. I think if she did survive a lot of her more impulsive, ruthless tendencies would be curved by age and experience.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 13:46:31 GMT -5
What Nic said but also this: You're suggesting that Jon hanging the mutineers is more justified than Dany burning the slavers is a double standard. The slavers literally covered children in honey and threw them at bears for entertainment (books) and of course there entire treatment of the Unsullied. Whatever the form of execution, at the end of the day it's execution. No, I'm talking purely about methods here. They might have been despicable human beings, but imo burning someone alive regardless of their crime is pretty cruel. Two wrongs don't make a right. And my point is that cruelty is subjective. Would a person rather suffocate to death slowly on a hangman's noose or die in 3 minutes from the smoke inhalation of burning? Both are fucking cruel, period.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:50:23 GMT -5
No, I'm talking purely about methods here. They might have been despicable human beings, but imo burning someone alive regardless of their crime is pretty cruel. Two wrongs don't make a right. And my point is that cruelty is subjective. Would a person rather suffocate to death slowly on a hangman's noose or die in 3 minutes from the smoke inhalation of burning? Both are fucking cruel, period. It's all pretty bad. Remember poor Rodrik? Not everyone is lucky enough to be beheaded by a Valyrian steel sword.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
122
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:54:25 GMT -5
I don't think it's a bad thing to have some of the methods used by our "heroes" questioned. Dany isn't all rainbow and unicorns and there is definitely a question about how ruthless she can be. That's an ongoing thread with her. Continuing that only makes sense. I think there's sometimes an oversensitivity from individual character fans that their favourite character isn't being portrayed as 100% virtuous or just. Many of the examples I provided of Dany's actions above have other characters either questioning her choice or being put off somewhat by her level of vengeance/ruthlessness. All of Jorah/Selmy/Missandei etc have done this and now it's Tyrion's turn. Dany going overboard in her distribution of revenge and justice is not a new thing and will be an element they continue with probably until the end of the series. The audience is supposed to be questioning her mindset even when being on board with her actions. It makes you question your own level of bloodlust too which is what good writing should do. It would be boring if she did the 100% right thing every single time. We've seen Jon killing his enemies without hesitation, so what's the difference here? He's Targaryen too be we haven't seen him going mad or anywhere near that stage. Glad we're gonna get scene of Jon and Dany discussin it, it's the same case. I understand if they'll go into this but given their own words - this is cheap. Tyrion is morally in the right to question her? Tyrion of all people, we know what he's capable from the books? I really dont mind Barry because he had seen ehat her father did, Jorah too to certain extent, Missandei is sweet soul. There are ways to go around it but rather this cheap way. So be it.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 13:58:28 GMT -5
I don't think it's a bad thing to have some of the methods used by our "heroes" questioned. Dany isn't all rainbow and unicorns and there is definitely a question about how ruthless she can be. That's an ongoing thread with her. Continuing that only makes sense. I think there's sometimes an oversensitivity from individual character fans that their favourite character isn't being portrayed as 100% virtuous or just. Many of the examples I provided of Dany's actions above have other characters either questioning her choice or being put off somewhat by her level of vengeance/ruthlessness. All of Jorah/Selmy/Missandei etc have done this and now it's Tyrion's turn. Dany going overboard in her distribution of revenge and justice is not a new thing and will be an element they continue with probably until the end of the series. The audience is supposed to be questioning her mindset even when being on board with her actions. It makes you question your own level of bloodlust too which is what good writing should do. It would be boring if she did the 100% right thing every single time. We've seen Jon killing his enemies without hesitation, so what's the difference here? He's Targaryen too be we haven't seen him going mad or anywhere near that stage. Glad we're gonna get scene of Jon and Dany discussin it, it's the same case. I understand if they'll go into this but given their own words - this is cheap. Tyrion is morally in the right to question her? Tyrion of all people, we know what he's capable from the books? I really dont mind Barry because he had seen ehat her father did, Jorah too to certain extent, Missandei is sweet soul. There are ways to go around it but rather this cheap way. So be it. Jon is never a Targaryen when it comes to madness, fans seem to always forget that. They left it out of the show for the most part but in the books, he does blackout and beat-up people (sort of like he did with Ramsay) before recognizing what he's doing.
|
|
alcasinoroyale
King of Winter
@alcasinoroyale
Posts: 5,387
Likes: 7,621
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#021f7c
5
0
1
Aug 26, 2022 20:49:12 GMT -5
7,621
alcasinoroyale
5,387
Jun 21, 2016 11:59:24 GMT -5
June 2016
alcasinoroyale
4 Time Winner
|
Post by alcasinoroyale on May 23, 2017 14:00:41 GMT -5
So basically all of the characters don't have a clear conscience and have done something questionable, often more than once. That's what makes them interesting and complex, that they all have a variety of moral compasses, whether their actions are justifiable or not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 14:03:15 GMT -5
I don't see Daenerys as being ruthless, she is well within the parameters of normal in the ASOIAF World, had she been ruthless, she would have RainOfCastamered the Slaver class or pulled a "Red Wedding" as Daario suggested.
She is not apologetic in her rage though and in her vengeance. She is not apologetic in her mercy or in her compassion either, whatever her character is feeling she runs hot with it.
It makes her true, which is why she feels ill whenever she has to compromise over something. She will do it, if it's required of her, of course. As she would do anything for the people she cares for, as she would anything to protect the people she cares for.
The way characters execute their enemies are all absolutely horrible but Daenerys had never killed anyone on her own behalf, she always did it on behalf of others.
And logic. She doesn't kill people for the fun of it, or because she is just so mad, so mad that she cannot even... the logic behind her actions is always clear, one might not agree with it, say one didn't think that crucifying as many masters for each children that suffered the same fate was a fit punishment.
But she strikes back. Rarely strikes first.
Her Fire and Blood speeches on the Usurper Dogs do not count as she never acted on it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 14:05:10 GMT -5
So basically all of the characters don't have a clear conscience and have done something questionable, often more than once. That's what makes them interesting and complex, that they all have a variety of moral compasses, whether their actions are justifiable or not. This. Forever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
122
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 14:16:31 GMT -5
We've seen Jon killing his enemies without hesitation, so what's the difference here? He's Targaryen too be we haven't seen him going mad or anywhere near that stage. Glad we're gonna get scene of Jon and Dany discussin it, it's the same case. I understand if they'll go into this but given their own words - this is cheap. Tyrion is morally in the right to question her? Tyrion of all people, we know what he's capable from the books? I really dont mind Barry because he had seen ehat her father did, Jorah too to certain extent, Missandei is sweet soul. There are ways to go around it but rather this cheap way. So be it. Jon is never a Targaryen when it comes to madness, fans seem to always forget that. They left it out of the show for the most part but in the books, he does blackout and beat-up people (sort of like he did with Ramsay) before recognizing what he's doing. He's got tendecies to be very angry at times and I suppose this side will be brought more and more. He's a half Targaryen, if not legit and full time Targaryen no matter if people like it or not. Wonder where he's got that. Not to the point of Dany for sure (she has a bigger streak of ruthlessness), but both of them killed their enemies - which Tarlys are the example. If it wasn't for Sansa, Jon would beat Ramsay to death - as Kit said it it would turn him into a killer. Jon is not far away given circumstances of the situation. This madness card is overplayed in general when it comes to her. It's a cheap trick will they or won't they. We know the answer already. This just my personal disdain but ignore this rant about it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
122
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 24, 2024 3:51:19 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 14:27:49 GMT -5
People dislike it when it comes to her because she's a woman and I hate to bring up gender card but I have to. Stannis did that and people were fine with it. One True King! Jon executed a child, almost Ramsay to death. When you look at it, he's displays far more agressive or radical killings than many other characters. He was justified in those killings or acts, but same way Dany or others. I feel sort of sorry for Dickon but then agains people can be manipulated very easily. Papa Tarly said we're going to war with these barbaric people, invaders and he'll go. I wouldn't be surprised if Dickon's death will seen as "mad act" or if producers plays that Aerys card again "Oh look she's getting mad more and more." It's a cheap thing to do when we know they won't go there per their words - but for the sake of drama. Let's have Tyrion and Varys of all people question her judgement because they're morally clean so to speak, right? I really dislike this part of spoilers. I disagree with this. Although when it comes to Stannis, him being a man and easy for dudebros to rally round with their 'STANNIS THE MANNIS' warcry bullshit I do agree. But Stannis is not a hero, and we are meant to be critical of him. Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Jon holds, as the criticisms against Dany and her ruthlessness aren't because she isn't justified (although there are cases where she definitely isn't justified), the criticisms are levelled entirely at her rather brutal and, honestly, cruel methods of dealing with some of her enemies. Burning people alive is not the same as executing murderers and mutineers by hanging or beheading. But I agree with King Tommen , that this issue is a key theme with Dany and her story. She threatened to raze Meereen at least twice and both times had people close to her challenge her and/or convince her to take a softer approach. But that isn't a criticism of her character. It's OK to question some of your favourites actions! Lord knows I have questioned some of Sansa's enough Burning people or beheading them is not more or less cruel or brutal. It's another form of executing your enemies and they're free to choose. I wish it was like this but people honestly do believe Stannis The Mannis thing and how heroic he is. Well at parts he was doing his duty, does this equal heroic? We are meant to be critical of all characters - even Jon Snow. He was blindsided and didn't see mutiny coming, running into the battle in a suicidal attempt. He should have had seen it coming. The thing is all of them Jon, Stannis, Dany each of them to a different extent dealt with this but yet there are double standards on this. This what I meant. Dany has many themes in her arc but Tyrion always had to be morally on the top? I really dislike Tyrion on the show and not just because of this example - but Dinklage makes it watcheable due to his acting. So, it's also who is talking to her, pushing her to "madness part" when we know it won't happen. I understand, her struggle with choices but beating the horse with a stick is also not a good idea. Anyway, we have a different view on that so let's leave it at this. Shall we?
|
|
mattpeto
Rhaegal
@mattpeto
Posts: 429
Likes: 705
inherit
37
0
Apr 19, 2024 18:24:06 GMT -5
705
mattpeto
429
Jun 30, 2016 15:37:43 GMT -5
June 2016
mattpeto
|
Post by mattpeto on May 23, 2017 15:00:22 GMT -5
Every character in this story has a certain amount of gray in them. Even Ned, probably the most righteous character, was willing to lie to his wife, his king and his family for a promise he made to his sister.
This narrative had several opportunities to develop more of a bad guy vibe with the main heroes, but just didn't go in that direction. Jon's resurrection was his last straw -even though GRRM said that death changes you, Jon is Ned all over again.
6 seasons complete and Daenerys has showed justifiable wrath. The thought of her turning into some sort of villain this stage of the game is ridiculous and I look forward to whatever is coming next year.
|
|
sercreighton
Silverwing
@sercreighton
Posts: 2,465
Likes: 2,439
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 3 Time Nominee
inherit
35
0
Sept 24, 2019 3:37:33 GMT -5
2,439
sercreighton
2,465
Jun 28, 2016 17:04:35 GMT -5
June 2016
sercreighton
3 Time Nominee
|
Post by sercreighton on May 23, 2017 17:15:06 GMT -5
What Nic said but also this: You're suggesting that Jon hanging the mutineers is more justified than Dany burning the slavers is a double standard. The slavers literally covered children in honey and threw them at bears for entertainment (books) and of course there entire treatment of the Unsullied. Whatever the form of execution, at the end of the day it's execution. No, I'm talking purely about methods here. They might have been despicable human beings, but imo burning someone alive regardless of their crime is pretty cruel. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your screen name is fire and blood, embrace it. I think there are some things to remember, one it's a fantasy series. You know there is a reason Martin made the slaver the way they are, he is not looking for apathy here, the slaves are apathetic and he put them through hell and made the slavers extra nasty and got extra graphic about their evils. He beat there asses for a reason, he as a history of this even outside of ASOIAF. Like Fevre Dream which is a metephor for slavery, it's why the wights are Thralls. Second Dany does not run around executing everyone by fire. One the show it's one slaver, Astapor was mostly the Unsullied and they were really pissed about everything done to them. Dany is not even looking to execute people, she is clearly not a fan of war, but it's part of what she is dealing with. We are shown there are dangers as with Dragons, that's why she tried locking them up. But the Dragons are needed, we know why they are needed more than she does. In the meantime they are one of the tools she uses to end slavery in slavers bay. In the books there is a lot of stabbing going on a lot more than there is fire. Well except for the Blackwater and the Wall Jon used fire and pitch against the Wildlings. There is not really a great execution method or some nice way to kill in war, you're essentially killing people, most of the time it hurts. We don't really see much in the way slow burning deaths. Rickard was one and that was deliberate, Quen was another and that was on him. The slaver in the Dragon pit was an execution and it was over quick. The 163 was probably the most painful death, no fire involved, but they pretty much brought that on themselves. And really when you ask yourself does the punishment fit the crime who has the right answer for that? They tortured and executed 163 kids in a Dark Age world while a woman the slaves refer to as Mother is at their doorstep with an army, at no point is the pain not coming. Dany is in Essos, Eddard did not raises her to swing the sword, KL tortures people, and so does the faith, let's not forget the High Sparrow working people over. Jon executed a man more out of a need to make a point than he did for the crime of disobeying an order. Ne dKilled a man who had clearly been broken by fear and was not in his right mind. There was no justice in what he did there. That's the world they live in.
|
|
inherit
138
0
Oct 21, 2019 0:14:49 GMT -5
782
Singer of Death
686
Apr 23, 2017 19:57:03 GMT -5
April 2017
lapiscarnellianm
|
Post by Singer of Death on May 23, 2017 17:30:06 GMT -5
I think the main problem people had with Dany is that she is the hero we are suppose to root for. The one we are told she is meant for the Iron Throne and that by becoming ruler of Westeros, she must learn all responsibilities. However, some of Dany's choices like bluntly rejecting her her advisors' ideas including Tyrion's advice and blatantly burning people alive make her less of a character who is experiencing how to become a good ruler and instead come across more of an annoyance. At least with Stannis, while he is ruthless about burning people alive for the Red God, people don't expect much redeeming qualities from him (at least of committing what benefits his goal). But for Dany, a lot of people complained that all Dany does is burn people, often out of emotions. That's it. What exactly does she do to execute her power as a ruler other than her dragons? And yes while the people Dany burned are assholes, she did overboard things that would lead to terrible results. Like killing the slave masters results to Meereen in a terrible state. Also, the scene where she feed the slave masters to her dragons accusing them of being responsible for Barristan's death is very notable of her acting out of emotions instead of reasons.
|
|