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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 12:33:06 GMT -5
while that DEFINITELY has a lot to with it.... since D&D are now writing their own scripts instead of relying on the books. i definitely think they're putting a lot of thought into the climaxes of each season and how to best heighten it and make it dramatic. with seasons 3 and 4, D&D were following the books and GRRM himself carefully set up all the various climaxes in a way that they're all very dramatic. but STILL D&D did split seasons 3 and 4 and decided to push back joffrey's death to season 4. when if D&D had wanted they could have easily structured season 3 in a way that the red wedding and the purple wedding BOTH happen in season 3. instead they made the climax of season 3 be the red wedding and then we had to wait an entire year to see the purple wedding. i definitely think that D&D did that purposefully so the audience would get a lot of time to mourn robb and cat , before they give catharsis for their those deaths by killing off joffrey. and then with seasons 5, and 6...while deaths like stannis, shireen, marge, tommen, hodor were important. there was a lot of sufficient build up to these deaths and neither of these characters are all that much hugely important in the same vein than cersei, jon and dany are imo. like i really don't think that myrcella dying in the season 5 finale took away any impact from stannis' death because myrcella is barely a character on her own individual merit. and i consider ramsay to be the same level of importance as characters like margaery and the high sparrow. so having those deaths back to back worked just fine imo. i dont think this is the case with jon, dany and cersei. i don't think killing off cersei in season 8 episode 4 or 5 and then killing jon or dany or both off in episode 6 would work like it did with ramsay in ep 9 and high sparrow/marge in ep 10 imo You make some good points and I don't disagree with them but then again we have to keep in mind that this IS the final season and therefore an entirely unique situation. It also really depends on how their deaths would be done. Dany or Jon sacrificing themselves is a very different thing from Catelyn and Robb dying gruesome deaths at the RW. However, it is very well possible that Cersei is the only major character to die. She is literally the only character that I'm a 100% sure of. oh i definitely agree with all that, but at the same time with only 6 episodes...i think D&D definitely intend to follow basic tv rules. otherwise it could end up being a big giant mess. and as flawed as D&D can be, i think they're usually pretty good at building up climaxes and making sure they have the right kind of impact
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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 12:35:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry I missed this great debate, one of the better ones we've had recently with the boredom and long wait for Season 7! Kudos to all of you in this as it's given me a lot more to think about. I'm still really uncertain about Jon and Dany in this equation. As for Cersei, I really don't consider her a true 'villain' anymore in the same sense I would the Mountain, or Ramsay, or Joffrey. They've spent so much time building up her amazing complexities it's difficult to categorize her there entirely. She has a huge fan following now and her death is going to be really impactful so I agree with belle they won't want to put that too close to another major character's death IMO. If she's truly going to survive until Season 8... then either Jon/Dany don't die or Cersei survives. I think one or the other, probably not all three of them die or two die leaving one. They are the three main pivotal points of the triangle in this story. yep exactly my point. unlike jon/dany tho, death is basically ESSENTIAL for cersei's arc. so its 99% likely going to be that cersei dies and jon/dany survive.
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 12:35:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry I missed this great debate, one of the better ones we've had recently with the boredom and long wait for Season 7! Kudos to all of you in this as it's given me a lot more to think about. I'm still really uncertain about Jon and Dany in this equation. As for Cersei, I really don't consider her a true 'villain' anymore in the same sense I would the Mountain, or Ramsay, or Joffrey. They've spent so much time building up her amazing complexities it's difficult to categorize her there entirely. She has a huge fan following now and her death is going to be really impactful so I agree with belle they won't want to put that too close to another major character's death IMO. If she's truly going to survive until Season 8... then either Jon/Dany don't die or Cersei survives. I think one or the other, probably not all three of them die or two die leaving one. They are the three main pivotal points of the triangle in this story. I try to be a thoughtful fan of the series but I do fall into the trap of George being a trope breaker and of the story being unpredictable, every once in a while. But belle 's original point is really important and shouldn't be overlook. D&D like George are following a narrative stricture. More so for George who is a very purposeful writer and who puts in a great deal of detail to his story. Most action have a narrative purpose and so, if the leaks are correct, what is the narrative purpose of Cersei's death (there are many) but once she (and perhaps Jaime) dies what would be the narrative purpose of killing another big character. Because, for example, Cersei can be seen as part of the old structure of the kingdom, even if she's something new onto herself. She's not seeking to change anything in a positive sense. If anything she's seeking to consolidate more power for the crown. While the other major character have been actively (purposely or not) changing the status quo. They are looking to a new way of doing things. Whether that a good thing or not is yet to be seen. Nonetheless, if Jon and/or Dany dies it will be in order to achieve something new. But it there would have to be some breathing room between their death and Cersei's death. Having one after the other would just be really shitty storytelling. But we'll see.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on May 17, 2017 12:43:37 GMT -5
Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) Little Sam was destined to be a God before it was taken south of the Wall. The Others will take what is rightfully theirs. I would expect Little Sam's story arc ending with him being converted to ice just like his brother at the end of S04E04
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Post by Envie on May 17, 2017 12:43:46 GMT -5
yep exactly my point. unlike jon/dany tho, death is basically ESSENTIAL for cersei's arc. so its 99% likely going to be that cersei dies and jon/dany survive. I do think Cersei's ending is part of her beginning (the prophecy) and really hers and no one else's has been emphasized strongly. The fact they cast a very specific trio of actresses to play out that flashback scene for Cersei was a big clue that we really do have to pay attention to it for Cersei's endgame. But the witch never says how Cersei DIES on the show, where she did say it very explicitly in the books (white hands wrapped around her neck to choke the life out of her). Why leave that part out if it's so important? Because they didn't want to give away Cersei's death on the show? I guess that makes sense. I never really understood that though as plenty of things have been threatened or telegraphed and didn't happen and no one's truly safe or in danger as a given. There's still twists left to be done, I think. Maybe I'm kinda sorta hoping Cersei survives, haha. Nonetheless, if Jon and/or Dany dies it will be in order to achieve something new. But it there would have to be some breathing room between their death and Cersei's death. Having one after the other would just be really shitty storytelling. But we'll see. I agree that the deaths of Dany or Jon compared to Cersei would be much different and appeal to different fans of the story for different reasons. I also liked what you said about how Cersei is the "old world" political mindset while Dany and Jon are the new mindset, the influencers in change, where Cersei is resisting that change. So likely yes she definitely does die. I hope it's impactful and given the significance it deserves though and not something offscreen like Stannis got.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 12:44:22 GMT -5
I realise that I'm playing devil's advocate here and please know that I'm not entirely set on Jonerys dying either. I hear your arguments and they make a lot of sense to me! I'm just trying not to exclude any possibilities. I think another aspect we might want to keep in mind is if there is indeed two different storylines, a political one with Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa in the south and the battle storyline with Dany, Jon, Bran, Arya, the NK and others in the North, there might very well be two different climaxes with two very different dynamics, which would make it structurally possible to kill off two major characters IMO. But this is assuming they are indeed going forward with two storylines (that are of course connected).
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Post by sercreighton on May 17, 2017 13:10:55 GMT -5
i have succumbed to the popular opinion of the dany fans on this board. i now feel pretty convinced that both jon and dany will survive the series. I'm still not convinced. That is to say, they both may survive, but I'm not sure they will be the same. Jon already died. And according to Kit he is a little evil now. Bet he stopped giving Ghost treats or something, poor Ghost and now Sansa is going to try and steal Ghost using lemon cakes.
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Post by sercreighton on May 17, 2017 13:22:34 GMT -5
Thing with Martin iss why would he want you to know how they would rule if he was not planning on letting them rule. It goes back to his comments on Aragorn. We knew strider but we had no idea of what kind of King he would be it's just taken for granted it's happily ever after. But we don't know his policies or how he would make choice or what he believed in really. At the same time he took all his young POV's and essentially trained them to fill roles in a story he describes as generational. Each kid essentially had a teacher and a speciality. Bran and Blodrven, Sansa and Littlefiner, Arya and the Kindly man, Jon and Mormont, and Dany had Drogo, but now Tyrion and is essentially self taught but as we see how Jon would command, we see how Dany is as a queen.
To me it's like they have all been training. Sure they can all die, or come back nd die again and maybe stay dead or come back. But then Martin wasted all that time and writing for nothing.
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 17:01:05 GMT -5
Thing with Martin iss why would he want you to know how they would rule if he was not planning on letting them rule. It goes back to his comments on Aragorn. We knew strider but we had no idea of what kind of King he would be it's just taken for granted it's happily ever after. But we don't know his policies or how he would make choice or what he believed in really. At the same time he took all his young POV's and essentially trained them to fill roles in a story he describes as generational. Each kid essentially had a teacher and a speciality. Bran and Blodrven, Sansa and Littlefiner, Arya and the Kindly man, Jon and Mormont, and Dany had Drogo, but now Tyrion and is essentially self taught but as we see how Jon would command, we see how Dany is as a queen. To me it's like they have all been training. Sure they can all die, or come back nd die again and maybe stay dead or come back. But then Martin wasted all that time and writing for nothing. This is also another caveat we have to consider when discussing the possible deaths of these characters. What is their journey leading them to. Where have their choices taken and will take them and if they die will their journey warrant that end.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 17:46:23 GMT -5
i have succumbed to the popular opinion of the dany fans on this board. i now feel pretty convinced that both jon and dany will survive the series. I've never been of that opinion...
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Post by Envie on May 17, 2017 18:08:30 GMT -5
But then Martin wasted all that time and writing for nothing. That's the part that keeps sticking with me too when I try to consider an ending where one, some or all of these characters die in some great 'sacrifice' twist to end winter. Is that really a better tale? It seems to me some fans are so bent on demanding that the ending be 'unexpected' that they've forgotten the journey along the way that got them here and why. Jon and Dany (and their respective support teams) have all been training to change the status quo and make Westeros a better world. If one or both of them dies, how are they supposed to do that even if the long night is defeated? Westeros (and Essos) go right back to the same ways they had before. One of the things people forgot about LotR was the ending and the hobbits return to the shire. They were changed forever and it was never going to be the same as before they left. This was a clear parallel to young men returning from war... jaded and battle scarred, they will never be the same. That's sort of what I imagine will happen for all of our favorite 'kids' who have grown up. Winter will be defeated but the cost of that defeat will leave most of them forever changed (most of them already are anyways at this point). A bit harder, a bit more cynical and stoic ... children who grew up in a bitter world but with at least a bit of a sweet ending.
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Post by sercreighton on May 17, 2017 18:53:46 GMT -5
I find Jon to be the most interesting when it comes to life and death and the end game. First he already died, that was a death it was confirmed. Second R+L=J, what is the point in making him a Targaryen? You have the unrequited love narrative, except they hook up. Then there is Martin's comment from the treatment of how he can't be with someone because they are related but later that flips. Here it could be the opposite which means R+L=J wasn't all that important. It also fills in bitter sweet except Martin created a world where Aunt Nephew issss not a huge deal, it's not ideal but it is legal. So what the hell? I mean being a Targaryen is not going to let him wake the Dragons or anything, that was already covered.
Dany could die and he could claim the throne, and Martin did say a house would return to power. Thing is that Dany is the one that brought back the Targs, she has done all the lifting and it's a major part of her narrative not Jon's. It's been zero part of his narrative which revolves around the watch and the north. There stories are obviously meant to intersect in a major way, but it's not like the characters know this and it effects their choices.
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Post by sercreighton on May 17, 2017 18:57:54 GMT -5
But then Martin wasted all that time and writing for nothing. That's the part that keeps sticking with me too when I try to consider an ending where one, some or all of these characters die in some great 'sacrifice' twist to end winter. Is that really a better tale? It seems to me some fans are so bent on demanding that the ending be 'unexpected' that they've forgotten the journey along the way that got them here and why. Jon and Dany (and their respective support teams) have all been training to change the status quo and make Westeros a better world. If one or both of them dies, how are they supposed to do that even if the long night is defeated? Westeros (and Essos) go right back to the same ways they had before. One of the things people forgot about LotR was the ending and the hobbits return to the shire. They were changed forever and it was never going to be the same as before they left. This was a clear parallel to young men returning from war... jaded and battle scarred, they will never be the same. That's sort of what I imagine will happen for all of our favorite 'kids' who have grown up. Winter will be defeated but the cost of that defeat will leave most of them forever changed (most of them already are anyways at this point). A bit harder, a bit more cynical and stoic ... children who grew up in a bitter world but with at least a bit of a sweet ending. Martin and Frost follow the same belief it's about the Journey as you say. I think you are right that too many fans look Passat the now, and the story and over focus on what may happen at the very end.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 19:16:02 GMT -5
To me A Song of Ice and Fire is essentially the Song of Death and Life. This entire saga has many themes but the one that is the most prevalent is death in all its forms and what it means to die. It's a philosophical story about how life and death are connected and how one does not exist without the other (Melisandre referred to this when she spoke about light and shadow being inseperably connected). Jon is the song personified. He is ice and fire. He died and he lived. Thematically I believe this is the reason for his double ancestry. He experienced both states of being/not-being.
Anyway, this entire theme is the main reason why I think someone major has to die and I always believed that to be Dany. Character development and their journeys are important and definitely worth taking into the equation. But I don't think major characters dying would render their development meaningless. Actually I think the exact opposite is the case, especially in Dany's case. It would give existential meaning to this story and really cement its thematic purpose. Life (Dany) and death (NK) as two opposing forces battling each other, but in the end neither can really triumph over the other. There is no life without death and no death without life. What remains is a symbiosis between the two: the song of ice and fire (Jon). That's why I always assumed that Dany and the NK would die but Jon would live. I not only think this would be a good ending, I think that would be a great one. Not because I dislike Dany. I don't. I have rooted for her since the first episode, and I totally see myself shedding a tear if she dies. But I think this is the ending that makes the most thematic sense and displays the most depth.
But D&D and GRRM might surprise me once again and they will actually come up with something that I'm not seeing right now. I can't wait.
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Post by sercreighton on May 17, 2017 21:49:21 GMT -5
Well of course life and death is part of it, but here is the rub. What would make Jon any different from Beric, Drogo, Cat, the Wight's, the Dragons etc? That is not the epitome of the cycle of Life and Death it is a violation of it. Which Martin has pointed to this in books and interviews. Life is not about living dying and then coming back as many times as as need be. Was Jon brought back by ice and fire? He was brought back by the magic of a red priestess. Just as fire woke the dragons.
Frosts work was based off the unity oppositions, naturally occuring opposites are bound to meet, interact and a change occures. It can be in almost any form love and hate, a rock and a tree, a river and the land, a ship and the sea, rain and sand.
Coming back via a magic being made undead is not the same as two opposites like a male and a female having a child. That's life. A seed can lay in the ground but without water it will never grow. Jon is not more ice and fire as he is male and female. Same for Dany and everyone else there is a reason the first tale Maiden and Lion is about male and female, light and night, and a child, a pearl if you will.
At some point all the characters will die, that is the end of thier journey and nobody can really say when or where and the story may end before that. But that is not what their stories are about, their stories are about how they lived.
There is some interesting symbolism between Jon and Dany but also the Watch, the Unsullied and the Kingss Guard. Those three roles have several things in common. Duty is one and a lot people hold up how honerable the duty of the watch is. And there is truth in that, but there is a problem. No, wives, no children, no freedoms. Essentially it's all duty and it's stagnant. The big wall of ice is a symbol of division, But also stagnation, ice Preserves. Bt what ones that mean? Well your frozen, you don't change, you don't live, you don't have kids. You exist in one state. Like the watch Dany can't have children either. At least not right now, but notice a change. She freed the Unsullied, they can't have children, but they can have freedom, they can have lives and loved ones. That is the change you see with the unity of opposition, she cn't grow certain parts sof their bodies back, but when Dany came in opposition of the slavers we see a change, freedoms. Are they perfect? No, but that's life, but there is a change. There was a change at the wall with Jon and the Wildlings, he changed the nature of the relationship between two opposing forces. Perfect? No, and the Wldlings end up with fewer freedoms, thouogh still more than the watch and they get to live.
I tend to think a lot of people think Dany will die because she has done so much, she is almost to much of a legend of her own time and the legend is growing. So she has to die so it will be sad or bittersweet. Martin thought the return to the shire in LOTR was most perfect, describing it as bittersweet. Which it was, nobody actually dies though, what happened though? Change, they were changed the world was changed the shire was changed. It's very bittersweet for an ending and for the reader.
I wonder if Jon will die because Jon is held up by Magic jut like Beric and I wonder if Magic will end up leaving the world as it appears to be the problem. One symbol of that problem may be Dany's inability to have a child. What if in order to have a child which would be symbolic of new life to woman known symbolically as the mother magic has to go. Or perhaps magic could fix the problem or maybe life just finds a way. Not saying one or the other has to happen but I would not take any of them off the table.
There is the idea that death pays for life, but that may not be a good thing, because that is not how it works or no population growth would ever happen. Again it would circle back to stagnation. If every mother died at the birth of their child our population would be going south real fast. Maybe it's a way to use magic or to bring someone back from the dead but neither of those really represent life or balance.
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