[Re-Watch Project 5x05] 'Kill The Boy' Episode Discussion

This episode was solid, but for some reason I always thought that it was the weakest of S5.

Maybe because it is too dark, scenes from the North and the Wall are 70% of this episode I think.

And in this episode Meereen plot in a way lost its sense of urgency that I felt in the first 4 episodes. I don't know why. Dany's scene with dragons was good, but somehow that storyline felt empty now, in a political sense, since Mossador and Selmy were dead, and Hizdahr is locked.

I had a feeling in E4 that the rebellion in Meereen is raising, but somehow it just didn't feel important any more. In Dany's scene with Daario in E7, the fact that the Sons of the Harpy stopped killing people didn't feel like a big deal.

Except the attack in 509, that trend remained until the end of Meereen storyline. After 504 I never felt that there is some kind of chaos in Meereen, the situation there always felt too safe considering the city was on the brink of civil war.

Maybe the money was the problem. I don't know. Or they just didn't care too much for Meereen.

Rewatching this, I didn't realize how much time you really spend in each storyline. The Winterfell scenes are almost 20 minutes long, but in this case it worked really well even if the pace was slower. First, Michael McElhatton, Sophie Turner, Iwan Rheon, and Alfie Allen are what I think saved this controversial storyline because all of them are fantastic in this episode. The fact that we explore the deep complexities of their characters here. Sansa doesn't feel at home, but she has a sense of hope. Theon is starting to become torn between his two identities. Ramsay learns about how he came into the world, even if the scenario was pretty fucked up. And then Roose is already noticing that Ramsay is growing out of control. And what's more interesting is you can see him slightly smirking along with Sansa as Ramsay hears the news about Walda being pregnant. The tension in that scene is fucking crazy.

I really enjoyed all of the scenes at The Wall. Aemon's "Kill the Boy" advice to Jon, Jon contemplating whether making peace with the wildlings is a logical decision, Stannis being the grammar nazi that he is. "Fewer"   They somehow found a way to combine a lot of elements from Jon's ADWD chapters and make it flow perfectly. Tormund's plea to Jon about saving the wildlings at Hardhome didn't feel forced at all either. The one thing I will say though is fuck Olly. 

Dany in Meereen, I have mixed reactions towards because I'm still frustrated that they killed Barristan off, but at the same time it did give her more of a reason to finally accept Hizdahr's proposal and see the Sons of the Harpy as a real threat, even if the peace wasn't going to last very long. I think they could have done more here though because we don't explore how the common people feel about them. I agree with nikma that maybe they didn't care enough about it because we don't really see the SotH again until Daznak's. They are sort of just lurking in the shadows for the time being. 

Tyrion and Jorah in Valyria, maybe the visuals aren't what I expected them to be, but I think there were two great moments that stood out here. When Drogon flies above, Tyrion's reaction is almost like he's in awe because he can't believe that his childhood wishes are becoming reality. Also Tyrion and Jorah being poets when they talk about the doom. "They held each other close and turned their backs upon the end.
The hills that split asunder and the black that ate the skies;
The flames that shot so high and hot that even dragons burned;
Would never be the final sights that fell upon their eyes.
A fly upon a wall, the waves the sea wind whipped and churned —
The city of a thousand years, and all that men had learned;
The Doom consumed it all alike, and neither of them turned"
Jorah getting greyscale was an interesting twist, but I think him taking some of Connington's role was already set up in S2 when Quaithe told him that those who pass through Old Valyria must have protection. But shit that fucking sucks, dude. It almost made me think he was going to spread it like the pale mare in Meereen in the books, but I don't think that subplot was really needed.

My problem with the Meereen story is I felt the SotH needed to be bigger, be more open. I never could decide who they were. Were they only masters? Masters and Slaves? People who just hated Dany in general? Were they being financed even then by the Wise Masters, Benevolent whoevers, etc; or was that only later? There always felt a big knowledge gap in that story.

Poor Stannis the Grammar Nazi, only he can see the sense in the change in position on the Wildlings. I understand the bitterness I get all that, but Jesus you idiots, we're talking about the end of the world here. This attitude irritated me in the books as well. I would like to think humanity could rise above such pettiness with death racing toward them, but then again I look at the world around us today.

THE NORTH REMEMBERS!
Oh, how I long for the Northern Conspiracy!!! But we get a taste of it with Brienne and Pod at the inn. "I served Lady Catelyn. I serve her still. Who do you serve?"

Tyrion and Jorah are such a better road team than Jamie and Bronn. Nothing against the latter, but I just prefer the Old Valyria storyline.

Sansa, oh how you made a bad storyline bearable. I'd rather have a mother, too.

I completely agree this was a really beautifully filmed episode with a much different visual feel to it than most. It felt darker and grittier and more real. Great use of snow and lighting up at the wall and the angles on the horses riding out as Stannis and his army depart. Sailing down the river into old Valyria, the gloomy smoky room where the Boltons held that infamous dinner with Sansa. All so good and so realistic looking. 

Meereen starts to fade a bit here, I agree with others it wasn't as good as before and perhaps that's our show-verse sympathy for Barristan's death but I still enjoyed Dany's impromptu visit to Hizdahr in his prison cell to announce she's not only going to reopen the fighting pits, but she's going to marry him. Classic Daenerys cleverness there and I'm so glad she listened to Missandei and made her own decision.


"Thankfully a suitor is already on his knees..."




Here are my other favorite moments in this episode:


That look Sansa gives Ramsay when the Bolton baby is announced at dinner ...






That so very not obvious hint about Jon Targaryen Snow ...





The moment a friendship is bonded and Jon makes a decision that will later cost him his life ...




And the Doom of Valyria comes to life, along with a wild Drogon spotting ...

I think it's also important to point out a key critical moment that occurred with Daenerys in this episode.

Many critics of Dany try to say she has the Targaryen madness in her and that she will somehow become a villain like her Father. I disagree with this and the show has been very specific many times in showing how Dany could have made the choice on several occasions to "Burn them all!" the same as her Father but chose differently. (I know moiaf, @nictarion and many other Dany fans like us have had to argue this one many times)

She actually listens to her counselors and follows their advice even when that outcome does not help, such as sparing the Harpy Master Daario found in the wall, to put him on trial, and then executing Mossador for murdering him. She wanted to exact revenge on the Harpies for killing her Unsullied and then again for killing Barristan ... but she didn't. True, she exacted revenge on the masters who crucified the slave children earlier before Meereen, and then there was this in this episode:



We saw a small glimpse of the power Daenerys could wield with her Dragons if she chose to ...

"They will eat you if I tell them to ..."



But Dany stopped after that. Her Targaryen 'madness' did not take hold and she again asked for counsel, this time from Missandei who she later asks for advice regarding her current situation. Missandei says that she doesn't think she is fit to give advice to a queen, which Daenerys thinks is absurd and states that she thinks Missandei is as fit as anyone to have a say in this. Missandei says that instead of listening to her counselors Daenerys should perhaps listen to her heart instead. This leads to Daenerys reopening the fighting pits and proposing to Hizdahr.



Why I think this is so important is because it shows the beginning of Dany's ability to see beyond revenge and anger to find a better way of doing things. This tiny blossom of rational thinking and clever leadership will continue to grow stronger for Dany moving forward, especially once Tyrion joins her counsel. But even before that, she did listen to Barristan, and Missandei...

That's not to say there aren't tiny glimmers of potential for more violence from Daenerys to come especially now that she's going to be in Westeros and the politics will get even more complicated even before the White Walkers become the biggest factor.

I do believe Dany has the capacity for using violence quickly but she is aware of it and knows how to control it. She will not go mad like her Father.

Yes, another one of those terrific parallels for Dany and Jon in this episode for sure. Dany is advised to follow her heart and do what she feels needs to be done, and so does Jon. Both of them will have to make very tough choices to help the people they're leading. In Jon's case, Maester Aemon tells him to just do it, whatever it is, it's what he believes is the right thing to do. In Dany's case, Missandei tells her to listen to her own inner voice instead of everyone else and do what she feels is right. Neither of their decisions will win them their battles but it will further their growth and ultimately their path to becoming better leaders.

I thought this was a great episode, I thought the scene in Meereen was powerful when the Dragons ate the possible Harpy. Jon's scenes were great all around, although we know where his decisions will lead him. The scene's at Winterfell are hard, but I like the quiet resolve that Sansa is developing. I agree with the others above, Seeing Old Valyria was powerful, and I wish we could spend more time there and find out about the Doom that brought it down(prequel perhaps?). Also, nice fakeout with Tyrion, I remember watching the first time when he is pulled under that I thought that would be where the episode ended, and it got me again, lol.