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Post by Basil on Jul 6, 2017 14:34:31 GMT -5
The counselor fucked up, no question. But he was not responsible for Hannah's suicide. I don't know, the idea that you could go around and blame people for your misfortune makes me feel super uncomfortable. I feel for Hannah, but people are shitty to each other all the time. That's life. The only one who could and should be held responsible is Bryce. He commited an actual, terrible crime against her and others, and he deserves to be punished for it. But the rest certainly didn't.
I have zero problems with the characters or their motivations, Hannah's story arc is a compelling one. The true tragedy lies in the fact that her suicide could have been prevented so easily if she had found it in herself to open up to certain people, especially Clay.
My main issue with the show is the way it handles its subject matter. I don't think it can be denied that it glorifies suicide to an extend. Maybe you won't see it that way if you go into it with a critical and analytical mind, but for an impressionable young person, who is struggling every goddamn day and maybe already considering taking their own life, it could potentially convey harmful messages. After all, Hannah punished the people who made her life miserable. She used her suicide as vindication, the tapes were an instrument of revenge. Suicide as a revenge fantasy is a problematic concept to begin with, and this show treats it very uncritically. On the contrary, you get the impression that Hannah potentially destroying the lifes of her classmates was justified, because they were at some point or another shitty to her. Clay certainly saw it that way, and the audience is inclined to agree with him since he is the protagonist.
I really enjoyed 13 Reasons Why. In fact, I freaking loved it. The characters were extremely compelling and the acting absolutely phenomenal. But I don't think it could quite live up to its undoubtedly good intentions. Suicide is never the answer, and this show is ambiguous at best in conveying that message.
That's just my opinion, though. I discussed the show with my bro recently and he completely disagrees with me on this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 15:49:47 GMT -5
Basil , I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Going around and assigning blame for Hannah's suicide is definitely a problematic thing and that's probably my biggest concern regarding 13 Reasons Why. Some of the students on those tapes did relatively minor things, so Hannah blaming them for her suicide is a shitty thing to do even though I really felt her pain. So I'm a 100% agreeing with you here. However, Mr Porter is not a fellow student, but her teacher and counselor (Hannah was his "Schutzbefohlene" as we say in German). It's his job to react to these situations accordingly. He should have known better than to victim-blame Hannah, because it's his job to know better. This can considered to be malpractice, hence why Hannah's parents investigated this legally. What he did went beyond a simple "fuck-up" and is definitely a legal matter. Also, he is clearly lying and/or keeping quiet about his own fuck-up, which is also pretty unethical. If he straight-up lied in court, then this would be illegal too. So he definitely has some responsibility for what happened with Hannah.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 16:23:08 GMT -5
Also, I would like to add that responsibility is a tricky thing. I think ultimately we are ALL radically responsible for each other. Everything we do or say is bound to hurt someone. I think that's the story this show wanted to tell and I don't disagree with it. Of course the actual deed of committing suicide is something that people do on their own, but the way leading to this terrible decision is characterised by a radical responsibility from others. I mean it's true, no-one forced Hannah to cut her arms open, no-one was responsible for this. But everyone in her life was responsible for how they made Hannah feel about herself: some more (Bryce with his absoutely horrible crime) others less (e.g. Zach). Just as Hannah is now responsible for the impact that her tapes had on everyone else. Hannah even acknowledges this fact in one of her voice-overs.
Ultimately, I think the show should have been more careful with the revenge-fantasy. But on the other hand, I think this piece of criticism only applies to a certain extend, because we actually start to pity these characters as a result of her suicide AND her tapes having a devastating effect on virtually everyone else. The show doesn't sugarcoat it. It shows the negative effects pretty clearly. I don't need the show to openly tell me to feel bad for certain characters, because I felt incredibly, INCREDIBLY bad for Jessica. I also felt really bad for Justin despite of what he did. Many scenes involving these two characters subtlely made me feel sympathy towards them despite of what they did to Hannah and to each other. Just as much as the show evoked sympathy in me towards Hannah despite of what she did to Jessica and Justin by recording those tapes.
And then we also have Hannah's parents. Her suicide destroyed them. The show made that very clear. So there are definitely some weird "revenge fantasy" moments, but at the same time the show also tells us about the devastating effects of suicide.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 6, 2017 19:37:36 GMT -5
Can I also say that what Clay did to Tyler was just horrible. I got no satisfaction from Clay's "revenge" it was shameful and it didn't make anything better. Tyler messed up but he is also a kid and did not deserved that. Also, how they kept excluding him but had no problem covering up for a fucking rapist. WTF!
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 6, 2017 21:07:08 GMT -5
I don't blame Mr. Porter for Hannah's suicide either but as someone who has been a counselor, he went about it wrong. So wrong. I agree with moiaf what Clay did to Tyler was awful. I don't blame the other kids for excluding him. I would've too on the perv front but Clay sending the photo around was a bad move. And now people will pay for it since he looks like he's about to massacre the place.
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Post by belle on Jul 6, 2017 23:34:55 GMT -5
I enjoyed this show while I was watching it (mostly because of Katherine Langford and Dylan Minnette's performances) but feel pretty meh about it overall. I just feel like it was so shallow in regards to actually delving into mental illness. I also think the rape scenes and suicide scene were exploitatively explicit.
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Post by belle on Jul 6, 2017 23:37:05 GMT -5
Can I also say that what Clay did to Tyler was just horrible. I got no satisfaction from Clay's "revenge" it was shameful and it didn't make anything better. Tyler messed up but he is also a kid and did not deserved that. Also, how they kept excluding him but had no problem covering up for a fucking rapist. WTF! I feel like Tyler's going to end up blowing up the school with how the season ended with him so I'm not feeling much sympathy for him right not but I don't think we were meant to cheer what Clay did to him. But I did like that Clay was allowed to become a little grey with that act.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 5:01:13 GMT -5
Honestly I thought the way Mr Porter treated Hannah was really out-of-character; inconsistent with what we had seen of him earlier. Sure, he (and all the other teachers) was pretty oblivious to what was going on in the school but never outright ignorant or so quick to jump to conclusions like he was with Hannah. He'd always seemed to willing to listen to people, but then all of a sudden he's interrupting Hannah; trying to solve the problem before she's even explained it; victim-blaming her to an extent. It all just seemed very different to the way he'd acted previously.
Also I could've sworn for the longest time Jeff and Montgomery were the same person. It took one of them dying for me to be able to tell the difference.
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 7, 2017 9:41:40 GMT -5
suicide scene were exploitatively explicit. I actually thought they handled the suicide scene very well. I was surprised they showed it at all, but I think they made the right choice in forcing the viewers to see Hannah's last moments like that. It's one thing to consistently talk about suicide but not many show the reality of it in the way they that did.
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Post by belle on Jul 7, 2017 9:54:41 GMT -5
suicide scene were exploitatively explicit. I actually thought they handled the suicide scene very well. I was surprised they showed it at all, but I think they made the right choice in forcing the viewers to see Hannah's last moments like that. It's one thing to consistently talk about suicide but not many show the reality of it in the way they that did. I understand your point but I think it would have been more effective if they hadn't shown her slitting her wrists and just shown her getting into the tub with the blades beside her and then shown the parents' reaction. idk personally there have been very rare moments in which i think things like that are shown the right way. and since this show's depiction of mental illness was so shallow to me, they couldn't get away with showing this scene as explicitly as they did imo
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 9:59:12 GMT -5
I'm the exact opposite. I think showing it explicitly was the only right thing to do in this case in order to avoid romanticising suicide. This is especially important in a visual medium. To me personally going there was the only option.
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 7, 2017 10:07:01 GMT -5
There's a film called 2:37 that also shows a suicide in this light and I think they did it tastefully as well. Showing the horrifying aspect of it is important, IMO.
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Post by Singer of Death on Jul 7, 2017 20:54:28 GMT -5
Honestly I thought the way Mr Porter treated Hannah was really out-of-character; inconsistent with what we had seen of him earlier. Sure, he (and all the other teachers) was pretty oblivious to what was going on in the school but never outright ignorant or so quick to jump to conclusions like he was with Hannah. He'd always seemed to willing to listen to people, but then all of a sudden he's interrupting Hannah; trying to solve the problem before she's even explained it; victim-blaming her to an extent. It all just seemed very different to the way he'd acted previously. Also I could've sworn for the longest time Jeff and Montgomery were the same person. It took one of them dying for me to be able to tell the difference. I don't think it's out of character. Mr. Porter is a guidance counselor himself and he has been mentoring the students for a long time. Considering how the students at Liberty High School behave, this may had heavily stresses Mr. Porter to the extent he doesn't care anymore not dealing with the students. I recalled that the creator of the show stated Mr. Porter wasn't train on how to properly counsel students and that he was basically given the job not necessarily cause he has the skills.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 14:50:54 GMT -5
So Brandon Flynn (who plays Justin Foley on the show) came out as gay a couple of weeks ago. Good for him. And as Hannah would say "that damned smile".
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Post by moiaf on Oct 11, 2017 19:03:42 GMT -5
So Brandon Flynn (who plays Justin Foley on the show) has come out as gay a couple of weeks ago. Good for him. And as Hannah would say "that damned smile". Good for him indeed! I’m so happy that is so much easier for your actors and actresses to come out without feeling like their ruining their careers. We still have a ways to go but it’s good we are heading in the right direction.
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