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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 8:57:45 GMT -5
I thought I'd create a place for us to discuss the Winterfell storyline in more depth every week. I don't want to clog up the general discussion threads with this since I know that not everyone is as interested in it as I am. I want everyone to be able to read and post here so no spoilers please. Just focus on the episodes that we have seen so far. Here are some thoughts I have on the Winterfell storyline in 7x01: I was afraid of how they would depict the Jon and Sansa-rivalry, but I was very pleasently surprised. I do think that Jon is right about Sansa undermining him in front of the others. That was not cool. But I also think the scene is a bit more complex than just "Sansa is wrong and Jon is right." If Jon didn't want anyone to disagree with him - especially Sansa - then he should have talked this through with her first before announcing his decision to the lords and ladies of the North. It's true that Sansa still needs to learn when to hold back her criticism towards Jon. But Jon needs to be smarter about appeasing his advisors. If he wants to be a good king, he needs to listen more to what his people are saying (even when he is right). All in all, Jon should have talked to Sansa first to see whether they are on the same page or not. I also think it made a huge difference that it was actually Sansa who started the conversation. I don't think she really interrupted Jon as much as she just fundamentally disagreed with him. BOTH of them should have foreseen this, though, and discussed this in private first. Sansa is not the only one to blame for this IMO. Jon is too. The scene on the battlements was really well done. Their argument (with the back-and-forth) sounded like two siblings fighting, but it was obvious that they love each other even though they also find each other incredibly irritating. Sansa compared Jon to Joffrey. But then Jon almost compared Sansa to Cersei. I laugh because it was obvious to me that they didn't really mean it. It's how (a lot of) siblings talk to each other. Littlefinger in the North is like a fish out of water. It was so awkward to see how his manipulative bullshit is not working, because the Northern people are not like the people from KL. I think it was TheArchmaester who compared Littlefinger in Winterfell to Ned in KL. It's true. Ned was too honourable and honest for KL. It's the other way around for Littlefinger in Winterfell.
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Post by Lils on Jul 17, 2017 9:29:33 GMT -5
I was afraid of how they would depict the Jon and Sansa-rivalry, but I was very pleasently surprised. I do think that Jon is right about Sansa undermining him in front of the others. That was not cool. But I also think the scene is a bit more complex than just "Sansa is wrong and Jon is right." If Jon didn't want anyone to disagree with him - especially Sansa - then he should have talked this through with her first before announcing his decision to the lords and ladies of the North. It's true that Sansa still needs to learn when to hold back her criticism towards Jon. But Jon needs to be smarter about appeasing his advisors. If he wants to be a good king, he needs to listen more to what his people are saying (even when he is right). All in all, Jon should have talked to Sansa first to see whether they are on the same page or not. I do agree that neither Jon or Sansa were completely wrong or right. They both made excellent points. Sansa's especially was not underestimating Cersei and I think that's one Jon needs to keep in mind. I don't believe there was really any way for Jon to appease his advisers in that situation with Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. If he took away their homes, he would be dividing the North. However much his men might have agreed with Sansa that the children should be punished, it would have had long reaching consequences. The Men of the Night's Watch were against the Wildling forces coming south of the Wall, but the long reaching consequence of that would be lessening the number the Men of the Realm have to fight and adding to the number of the dead. I don't disagree with Sansa exactly. That's how things were done for so long and most of the realm hasn't seen the dead, but we the audience know there are only two seasons left and there's a big battle coming. It would be a bad idea to get rid of any additional help.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 9:49:54 GMT -5
I was afraid of how they would depict the Jon and Sansa-rivalry, but I was very pleasently surprised. I do think that Jon is right about Sansa undermining him in front of the others. That was not cool. But I also think the scene is a bit more complex than just "Sansa is wrong and Jon is right." If Jon didn't want anyone to disagree with him - especially Sansa - then he should have talked this through with her first before announcing his decision to the lords and ladies of the North. It's true that Sansa still needs to learn when to hold back her criticism towards Jon. But Jon needs to be smarter about appeasing his advisors. If he wants to be a good king, he needs to listen more to what his people are saying (even when he is right). All in all, Jon should have talked to Sansa first to see whether they are on the same page or not. I do agree that neither Jon or Sansa were completely wrong or right. They both made excellent points. Sansa's especially was not underestimating Cersei and I think that's one Jon needs to keep in mind. I don't believe there was really any way for Jon to appease his advisers in that situation with Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. If he took away their homes, he would be dividing the North. However much his men might have agreed with Sansa that the children should be punished, it would have had long reaching consequences. The Men of the Night's Watch were against the Wildling forces coming south of the Wall, but the long reaching consequence of that would be lessening the number the Men of the Realm have to fight and adding to the number of the dead. I don't disagree with Sansa exactly. That's how things were done for so long and most of the realm hasn't seen the dead, but we the audience know there are only two seasons left and there's a big battle coming. It would be a bad idea to get rid of any additional help. Ok, maybe appeasing is the wrong word, but I meant discussing his plans with certain people beforehand to see whether they agree or disagree with him. This way he could have taken the wind out of their sails and shown that he is interested in their opinion. It would also have been an opportunity to explain his opinion properly. If he had sat down with Sansa first, they could have cleared up any disagreements first and then appeared as a unity in front of the others.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 17, 2017 9:54:20 GMT -5
Littlefinger in the North is like a fish out of water. It was so awkward to see how his manipulative bullshit is not working, because the Northern people are not like the people from KL. I think it was TheArchmaester who compared Littlefiner in Winterfell to Ned in KL. It's true. Ned was too honourable and honest for KL. It's the other way around for Littlefinger in Winterfell.
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Post by Lils on Jul 17, 2017 9:56:39 GMT -5
I do agree that neither Jon or Sansa were completely wrong or right. They both made excellent points. Sansa's especially was not underestimating Cersei and I think that's one Jon needs to keep in mind. I don't believe there was really any way for Jon to appease his advisers in that situation with Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. If he took away their homes, he would be dividing the North. However much his men might have agreed with Sansa that the children should be punished, it would have had long reaching consequences. The Men of the Night's Watch were against the Wildling forces coming south of the Wall, but the long reaching consequence of that would be lessening the number the Men of the Realm have to fight and adding to the number of the dead. I don't disagree with Sansa exactly. That's how things were done for so long and most of the realm hasn't seen the dead, but we the audience know there are only two seasons left and there's a big battle coming. It would be a bad idea to get rid of any additional help. Ok, maybe appeasing is the wrong word, but I meant discussing his plans with certain people beforehand to see whether they agree or disagree with him. This way he could have taken the wind out of their sails and shown that he is interested in their opinion. It would also have been an opportunity to explain his opinion properly. If he had sat down with Sansa first, they could have cleared up any disagreements first and then appeared as a unity in front of the others. Oh no, I agree completely. I really wish they had met in private and discussed the idea together, both expressing their opinions away from everyone's view. They could have heard each other's points.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 10:03:00 GMT -5
Littlefinger in the North is like a fish out of water. It was so awkward to see how his manipulative bullshit is not working, because the Northern people are not like the people from KL. I think it was TheArchmaester who compared Littlefiner in Winterfell to Ned in KL. It's true. Ned was too honourable and honest for KL. It's the other way around for Littlefinger in Winterfell. ?? I'm talking about how Brienne and Sansa were pretty dismissive of him in 701. And how last season no-one gave a fuck about LF either. It reminds me of Ned in the sense that people were dismissive of him too when he arrived in KL, because their respective personalities are out of place. I'm basing this on what we have seen so far. I would be surprised, however, if Littlefinger gave up this quickly.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 17, 2017 10:08:28 GMT -5
?? I'm talking about how Brienne and Sansa were pretty dismissive of him in 701. And how last season no-one gave a fuck about LF either. It reminds me of Ned in the sense that people were dismissive of him too when he arrived in KL, because their respective personalities are out of place. I'm basing this on what we have seen so far. I would be surprised, however, if Littlefinger gave up this quickly. I meant because it was me who said that haha. Unless Archmaester also said it first, which is very possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 10:10:00 GMT -5
?? I'm talking about how Brienne and Sansa were pretty dismissive of him in 701. And how last season no-one gave a fuck about LF either. It reminds me of Ned in the sense that people were dismissive of him too when he arrived in KL, because their respective personalities are out of place. I'm basing this on what we have seen so far. I would be surprised, however, if Littlefinger gave up this quickly. I meant because it was me who said that haha. Unless Archmaester also said it first, which is very possible. Ah ok! Maybe it was you. Both you and Archie say pretty good stuff on a regular basis.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 17, 2017 10:16:41 GMT -5
I meant because it was me who said that haha. Unless Archmaester also said it first, which is very possible. Ah ok! Maybe it was you. Both you and Archie say pretty good stuff on a regular basis. It helps when you have the face of such a wise soul for an avatar. I could say anything and it would seem insightful.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 17, 2017 10:20:24 GMT -5
But to the point, I agree fully with the OP really. I love how these two thoroughly different people, who have had to grow up in completely different surroundings with vastly different mentors, now have to come together because ultimately they're still family. And despite the fact that both have been asked over and over again to forsake their families in service of something else, they both remain true to it in their own, different ways. God I want this to go well, more than usual on the show.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 17, 2017 11:13:33 GMT -5
I meant because it was me who said that haha. Unless Archmaester also said it first, which is very possible. Ah ok! Maybe it was you. Both you and Archie say pretty good stuff on a regular basis. wait...is Archmaester the same person as Archie from the old forum???
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 11:15:06 GMT -5
Ah ok! Maybe it was you. Both you and Archie say pretty good stuff on a regular basis. wait...is Archmaester the same person as Archie from the old forum??? Yes.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 17, 2017 11:17:45 GMT -5
wait...is Archmaester the same person as Archie from the old forum??? Yes. I wondered where he went lol.
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Post by sand0r on Jul 17, 2017 17:05:16 GMT -5
I said elsewhere: I really adore Sansa, but – and since everything that comes before ‘but’ is horseshit in the words of her father – one thing I wished LF would teach her is timing. Her reasoning is often sound. Her timing STINKS! Especially when LF, who tried to sow the rift between her and Jon last season, is looking on. The time to disagree with your brother/cousin-king is not during meetings with the Northern lords in the great hall, but on the walls of Winterfell in private. Doing otherwise makes her look petulant when he shoots her down, rather like the ignorant girl she once was rather than the insightful woman she has become. Also, she’d be wiser to present a united front with Jon in front of LF, if she wanted to play it smart, regardless of her personal feelings. The advice clearly found support among the Northern lords, but damn woman, timing is everything. The arrival of those Arryn soldiers should have taught her that. Oh well, she still clearly has some learning to do.
And wearing her hair like Cersei's isn't going to make her anything like Cersei.
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Post by Envie on Jul 18, 2017 12:51:08 GMT -5
Also, she’d be wiser to present a united front with Jon in front of LF, if she wanted to play it smart, regardless of her personal feelings. The advice clearly found support among the Northern lords, but damn woman, timing is everything. Ok, so I already talked about this at length in the post-episode discussion but I think it warrants repeating here in the focused discussion group for this and I'm using your line as it's a perfect example of why I think the way they had Sansa do what she did was perfect. Think back long ago to when Robb Stark was named King in the North. Who was the woman who supported his claim and followed him into battle? It was Catelyn, his Mother. She advised him, she disagreed with him, she even admonished him ... but she never did so in front of his men. She hung back a moment in the war tent to allow them to leave and then only in private did she embrace Robb and talk to him like a Mother ... Now we have a new King in the North and the woman who is supporting this one is his sister, not his Mother. The dynamic has shifted but the end result is still the same and the parallel is beautiful. But wait ... Sansa contradicts and undermines Jon in front of his men! She doesn't respectfully wait and counsel with him in private! Yes. Because she does not have the wisdom that comes with age and Motherhood Catelyn had. Sansa is barely more than a girl, a teenage one at that. Her more hot-headed approach is a much younger and more impulsive Catelyn, but still the same forceful and strong-willed woman as her Mother! My point in this is to show that Sansa's conflict with Jon is the same, yet different and that in time, she will become a much wiser and carefully judgemental woman much the same as Catelyn was. Catelyn did, after all, entrust Jaime and Brienne with oaths to find her daughters which was seen as traitorous by the northern lords. Sansa is also making decisions on her own (calling LF and the Vale without telling Jon) and still learning how to trust his leadership. Her speaking out of turn was perfect in my opinion. It establishes Sansa's willingness to be outspoken and brave but also reminds us that though she's learned a lot from her time in King's Landing, she's not quite there yet with the political prowess she'll need to be an advisor to Jon. It was a good piece of development for both Sansa AND Jon. In turn it gave Jon the opportunity to show his newfound leadership power and to put Sansa in her place a bit while at the same time respecting her. He didn't admonish her in front of the men (which he could have done) he just said his decision was final. She accepted it, begrudgingly. It was a perfectly done, and realistic scene.
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