Lils
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Post by Lils on Aug 7, 2017 13:41:52 GMT -5
How many men do we think will bend the knee for Dany? I can only imagine some of them value their lives over loyalty to Cersei. I would think some of them would. A good thing she's doing is giving them a choice, on the other hand, she also has to deliver a compelling case on why they should join her over Cersei especially since she just decimated a lot of the army and burned their wagons of food. I can see the Mad Queen comments coming, but wasn't this the same tactic that Aegon used as well? He roasted his share of lords and they bent the knee very quickly.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 7, 2017 21:21:28 GMT -5
I would think some of them would. A good thing she's doing is giving them a choice, on the other hand, she also has to deliver a compelling case on why they should join her over Cersei especially since she just decimated a lot of the army and burned their wagons of food. I can see the Mad Queen comments coming, but wasn't this the same tactic that Aegon used as well? He roasted his share of lords and they bent the knee very quickly. Yup, Aegon burnt more men alive than Dany during the Field of Fire and I think a majority of the survivors bent the knee to him. I don't think Dany is mad though, to me she's always been both compassionate and ruthless.
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Post by Envie on Aug 7, 2017 22:02:08 GMT -5
I can see the Mad Queen comments coming, but wasn't this the same tactic that Aegon used as well? He roasted his share of lords and they bent the knee very quickly. Yup, Aegon burnt more men alive than Dany during the Field of Fire and I think a majority of the survivors bent the knee to him. I don't think Dany is mad though, to me she's always been both compassionate and ruthless. I've been watching reactions and it's odd people don't seem to realize Daenerys didn't do what she originally wanted to do in this episode. It's just like in Meereen when she came back from her vacation with the Dothraki and found the city under siege. She was furious with Tyrion then as well and wanted to take matters into her own hands and burn the entire city to the ground. Tyrion suggested an alternate idea which led to her parley with the Masters and then burning their ships instead. Here in this episode, Jon is the one who ultimately persuades her not to attack King's Landing and burn it to the ground as well. Instead, she attacks the loot train of soldiers. This was a valid war tactic instead of killing thousands of innocent people in King's Landing. But still people are claiming she went against what she was advised and burned people. Yes she burned people... enemy soldiers who would kill her and her own armies. Big difference from burning innocent civilians.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 7, 2017 22:36:13 GMT -5
Yup, Aegon burnt more men alive than Dany during the Field of Fire and I think a majority of the survivors bent the knee to him. I don't think Dany is mad though, to me she's always been both compassionate and ruthless. I've been watching reactions and it's odd people don't seem to realize Daenerys didn't do what she originally wanted to do in this episode. It's just like in Meereen when she came back from her vacation with the Dothraki and found the city under siege. She was furious with Tyrion then as well and wanted to take matters into her own hands and burn the entire city to the ground. Tyrion suggested an alternate idea which led to her parley with the Masters and then burning their ships instead. Here in this episode, Jon is the one who ultimately persuades her not to attack King's Landing and burn it to the ground as well. Instead, she attacks the loot train of soldiers. This was a valid war tactic instead of killing thousands of innocent people in King's Landing. But still people are claiming she went against what she was advised and burned people. Yes she burned people... enemy soldiers who would kill her and her own armies. Big difference from burning innocent civilians. I've seen some criticisms on Dany that if she holds back, she's boring, but if she rides a dragon into battle and burns soldiers, she's mad. A larger part of this battle is that it's morally grey as many others have stated, it makes you feel conflicted. Dragons are magnificent creatures, but they are also very menacing. I think because we saw soldiers being burnt alive, their ashes spilling across the battlefield, there's definitely some uneasiness in how some view Dany. At the same time, those soldiers also slaughtered men at Highgarden, they've been backing a ruler who burned a sept full of innocent people, etc. Both Jaime and Dany have done things that are questionable, but also things that are heroic. And when he's charging at her, she doesn't look like a threat anymore, she looks vulnerable and there's a human quality to that. I have a feeling that the same people that hate her for burning people alive here with Drogon are going to cheer when she commands him to burn a bunch of wights.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 22:40:36 GMT -5
I've been watching reactions and it's odd people don't seem to realize Daenerys didn't do what she originally wanted to do in this episode. It's just like in Meereen when she came back from her vacation with the Dothraki and found the city under siege. She was furious with Tyrion then as well and wanted to take matters into her own hands and burn the entire city to the ground. Tyrion suggested an alternate idea which led to her parley with the Masters and then burning their ships instead. Here in this episode, Jon is the one who ultimately persuades her not to attack King's Landing and burn it to the ground as well. Instead, she attacks the loot train of soldiers. This was a valid war tactic instead of killing thousands of innocent people in King's Landing. But still people are claiming she went against what she was advised and burned people. Yes she burned people... enemy soldiers who would kill her and her own armies. Big difference from burning innocent civilians. I've seen some criticisms on Dany that if she holds back, she's boring, but if she rides a dragon into battle and burns soldiers, she's mad. A larger part of this battle is that it's morally gray as many others have stated, it made me feel conflicted. Dragons are magnificent creatures, but they are also very menacing. I think because we saw soldiers being burnt alive, their ashes spilling across the battlefield, there's definitely some uneasiness in how some view Dany. At the same time, those soldiers also slaughtered men at Highgarden, they've been backing a ruler who burned a sept full of innocent people, etc. Both Jaime and Dany have done things that are questionable, but also things that are heroic. And when he's charging at her, she doesn't look like a threat anymore, she looks vulnerable and there's a human quality to that. I have a feeling that the same people that hate her for burning people alive here with Drogon are going to cheer when she commands him to burn a bunch of wights. I liked that they included that scene of Dickon feeling bad about slaughtering men he grew up with. What the Tarlys did was pretty fucked up at the end of the day. They should have supported House Tyrell.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 7, 2017 22:47:13 GMT -5
I've seen some criticisms on Dany that if she holds back, she's boring, but if she rides a dragon into battle and burns soldiers, she's mad. A larger part of this battle is that it's morally gray as many others have stated, it made me feel conflicted. Dragons are magnificent creatures, but they are also very menacing. I think because we saw soldiers being burnt alive, their ashes spilling across the battlefield, there's definitely some uneasiness in how some view Dany. At the same time, those soldiers also slaughtered men at Highgarden, they've been backing a ruler who burned a sept full of innocent people, etc. Both Jaime and Dany have done things that are questionable, but also things that are heroic. And when he's charging at her, she doesn't look like a threat anymore, she looks vulnerable and there's a human quality to that. I have a feeling that the same people that hate her for burning people alive here with Drogon are going to cheer when she commands him to burn a bunch of wights. I liked that they included that scene of Dickon feeling bad about slaughtering men he grew up with. What the Tarlys did was pretty fucked up at the end of the day. They should have supported House Tyrell. Yeah, him feeling remorse for that was good and kind of unexpected. Randyll is still a douche though. I'm reminded too of Jorah's quote to Dany S4, "It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 22:48:58 GMT -5
I liked that they included that scene of Dickon feeling bad about slaughtering men he grew up with. What the Tarlys did was pretty fucked up at the end of the day. They should have supported House Tyrell. Yeah, him feeling remorse for that was good and kind of unexpected. Randyll is still a douche though. I'm reminded too of Jorah's quote to Dany S4, "It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." Randyll wanting to flog their men for being too slow. I hate him so much.
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Aug 7, 2017 23:19:32 GMT -5
I liked that they included that scene of Dickon feeling bad about slaughtering men he grew up with. What the Tarlys did was pretty fucked up at the end of the day. They should have supported House Tyrell. Yeah, him feeling remorse for that was good and kind of unexpected. Randyll is still a douche though. I'm reminded too of Jorah's quote to Dany S4, "It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." Randyll is really no different than Walder Frey or Roose Bolton. They turned against their liege lords too, but I guarantee people are going to defend Randyll. Do you think they remember that Randyll told Sam he would kill him unless he took the black? Dickon is at least human and understandable. I felt his fear and how out of his element he was in the Loot Train battle.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Aug 7, 2017 23:53:52 GMT -5
All this hate towards Dany is unwarranted. This is war, not reenactment of Field Of Fire. Those Lannister soldiers did not dress up for a play. They won against the Martell army and lost against the Targ army. Plain and simple.
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Post by charliexcx on Aug 8, 2017 3:39:04 GMT -5
Drogon rolling up on Jon like "Hey future dad!"
I'm loving Dany taking more control....just like Aegon did. Don't get the Aerys comparison. I think if her dad had 3 large dragons Westeros would be in complete ashes. If she really wanted to she could take out everyone with her nuclear bombs...but she's not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 7:03:44 GMT -5
Yeah, him feeling remorse for that was good and kind of unexpected. Randyll is still a douche though. I'm reminded too of Jorah's quote to Dany S4, "It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, but there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." Randyll is really no different than Walder Frey or Roose Bolton. They turned against their liege lords too, but I guarantee people are going to defend Randyll. Do you think they remember that Randyll told Sam he would kill him unless he took the black? Dickon is at least human and understandable. I felt his fear and how out of his element he was in the Loot Train battle. Honestly both Roose and Walder Frey have better reasons for turning agains their lieges than Randyll.
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Post by Diablotion on Aug 8, 2017 7:15:00 GMT -5
I would think some of them would. A good thing she's doing is giving them a choice, on the other hand, she also has to deliver a compelling case on why they should join her over Cersei especially since she just decimated a lot of the army and burned their wagons of food. I can see the Mad Queen comments coming, but wasn't this the same tactic that Aegon used as well? He roasted his share of lords and they bent the knee very quickly. Like I said, I would compare this dragon attack to air strikes. They're allowed against soldiers, but war crimes against civilians. Without Tyrion's advice, King's Landing would look like Dresden. Dany is in a difficult situation. If she storms King's Landing, lots of innocent civilians will die. If she puts King's Landing under siege, lots of innocent civilians will die. What is the right solution? Yup, Aegon burnt more men alive than Dany during the Field of Fire and I think a majority of the survivors bent the knee to him. I don't think Dany is mad though, to me she's always been both compassionate and ruthless. I've been watching reactions and it's odd people don't seem to realize Daenerys didn't do what she originally wanted to do in this episode. It's just like in Meereen when she came back from her vacation with the Dothraki and found the city under siege. She was furious with Tyrion then as well and wanted to take matters into her own hands and burn the entire city to the ground. Tyrion suggested an alternate idea which led to her parley with the Masters and then burning their ships instead. Here in this episode, Jon is the one who ultimately persuades her not to attack King's Landing and burn it to the ground as well. Instead, she attacks the loot train of soldiers. This was a valid war tactic instead of killing thousands of innocent people in King's Landing. But still people are claiming she went against what she was advised and burned people. Yes she burned people... enemy soldiers who would kill her and her own armies. Big difference from burning innocent civilians. This is no different to when Tyrion burned thousands of Stannis's men.. even some of his own. It's incredibly harsh, but this is war. Some of Dany's impulses are a bit scary, so I can't really blame for people speculating that she will go mad. I've seen some criticisms on Dany that if she holds back, she's boring, but if she rides a dragon into battle and burns soldiers, she's mad. A larger part of this battle is that it's morally gray as many others have stated, it made me feel conflicted. Dragons are magnificent creatures, but they are also very menacing. I think because we saw soldiers being burnt alive, their ashes spilling across the battlefield, there's definitely some uneasiness in how some view Dany. At the same time, those soldiers also slaughtered men at Highgarden, they've been backing a ruler who burned a sept full of innocent people, etc. Both Jaime and Dany have done things that are questionable, but also things that are heroic. And when he's charging at her, she doesn't look like a threat anymore, she looks vulnerable and there's a human quality to that. I have a feeling that the same people that hate her for burning people alive here with Drogon are going to cheer when she commands him to burn a bunch of wights. I liked that they included that scene of Dickon feeling bad about slaughtering men he grew up with. What the Tarlys did was pretty fucked up at the end of the day. They should have supported House Tyrell. This was important. Dickon seems like a nice bloke, a bit like his mother. This shows us that the Tarlys are not evil. Randyll is, but the rest seem genuine and nice. Randyll is really no different than Walder Frey or Roose Bolton. They turned against their liege lords too, but I guarantee people are going to defend Randyll. Do you think they remember that Randyll told Sam he would kill him unless he took the black? Dickon is at least human and understandable. I felt his fear and how out of his element he was in the Loot Train battle. Honestly both Roose and Walder Frey have better reasons for turning agains their lieges than Randyll. This disturbs me. Tarly's betraying the Tyrells feels like the Umbers etc. betraying the Starks. Devoted houses weirdly change sides. Also I find it annoying that everyone supports Cersei after she murdered hundreds of peasants and very important noblemen. This should have been the last straw for Jaime, but there he is, calling Olenna "broken".
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 8, 2017 7:33:54 GMT -5
This disturbs me. Tarly's betraying the Tyrells feels like the Umbers etc. betraying the Starks. Devoted houses weirdly change sides. Also I find it annoying that everyone supports Cersei after she murdered hundreds of peasants and very important noblemen. This should have been the last straw for Jaime, but there he is, calling Olenna "broken". These are good points I don't think we've really talked about much. The Tarly switch to supporting house Lannister mimics the Umbers/Karstarks supporting House Bolton and this should be bothering people more than it is. I realize it's not the focus the way the Umber betrayal was with giving Rickon to Ramsay, however. Tarly switching sides seemed like a weak power grab for Warden because House Tyrell was about to go extinct. Who knows, maybe there's a Tyrell cousin or two out there somewhere and he wanted to be sure to overthrow them and become a major House in the game - or so he thinks. Randyll Tarly is a bad man and I guess that's all the reason they needed to give him for switching sides.
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Post by iheartseverus on Aug 8, 2017 14:19:56 GMT -5
I've watched the promo a few times, have to chuckle every time Davos says 'Bad things are coming.' Uhhh, Master of Understatement, Captain Obvious?
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Post by TheArchmaester on Aug 9, 2017 1:47:03 GMT -5
I would think some of them would. A good thing she's doing is giving them a choice, on the other hand, she also has to deliver a compelling case on why they should join her over Cersei especially since she just decimated a lot of the army and burned their wagons of food. I can see the Mad Queen comments coming, but wasn't this the same tactic that Aegon used as well? He roasted his share of lords and they bent the knee very quickly. There was nothing heroic about Aegon, though. He just did what conquerors do: he invaded a foreign land and took it. Dany says she wants to change the world, and that has nothing to do with conquering. I think Episode 4 did a great job at showing the horror behind the romantic idea of conquest. The lords of the Reach supporting Cersei makes perfect sense to me. They're choosing the evil that is known to them. Dany is a foreign invader with a Dothraki horde, three dragons and Unsullied, and comes with a nasty reputation made even more distorted by Cersei's propaganda. The only reason Olenna joined Dany was because she wanted personal vengeance for her family. She didn't believe in anything Dany stood for. Same for Ellaria, and Yara also had reasons of her own. The only people who see her as messianic and are truly devoted to her are all Essosi. But this is Westeros and she's not saving anyone from slavery. Dany won a big battle but has also created more "bad press", let's put it that way. If the remaining lords of the Reach bend the knee, it will be out of fear, not devotion. I think this realization will be a big part of her arc going forward and will push her to where she really needs to go.
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