breakfest
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Post by breakfest on Aug 9, 2017 16:23:19 GMT -5
To be fair to KT the Blackwater is still very clearly inspired by how they managed to pull off Helm's Deep. The way the main characters on the defensive side are all lined up on the walls, with the sieging forces climbing the castle walls with ladders. The fact that it was filmed in darkness with plenty of flame to both hide the limitations but improve the visibility. The women and children holed up inside. Watchers on the Wall really took its cue from these initial decisions, so I'd say Blackwater is still more obviously the GoT version of Helm's Deep.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:24:57 GMT -5
All of the battle episodes* are in my top 10, including Blackwater, but it's admittedly my least favourite one now. Not only because of its technical limitations, but also because in the long run it turned out to be relatively inconsequential compared to the other episodes. The battle itself didn't really change the status quo that much. The biggest change to come out of that episode was the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, but that would have happened regardless of the battle. It was not a direct consequence of it. Breakfest is right in that Blackwater contains the best dialogue and best character moments out of all these episodes. But in terms of emotions/pathos, spectacle and most importantly impact, all the other episodes are a lot stronger. Also, since this is a visual medium, I do think the visuals are just as important as characterisation.
*I count 209, 409, 508, 609 and 704.
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breakfest
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Post by breakfest on Aug 9, 2017 16:32:59 GMT -5
All of the battle episodes* are in my top 10, including Blackwater, but it's admittedly my least favourite one now. Not only because of its technical limitations, but also because in the long run it turned out to be relatively inconsequential compared to the other episodes. The battle itself didn't really change the status quo that much. The biggest change to come out of that episode was the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, but that would have happened regardless of the battle. It was not a direct consequence of it. Breakfest is right in that Blackwater contains the best dialogue and best character moments out of all these episodes. But in terms of emotions/pathos, spectacle and most importantly impact, all the other episodes are a lot stronger. Also, since this is a visual medium, I do think the visuals are just as important as characterisation. *I count 209, 409, 508, 609 and 704. Visuals are important sure, and I think Blackwater still looks great for the most part. But I put the visible budgetary improvements below story, dialogue, character, and cinematography regardless of budget too, in importance. I wouldn't expect everyone to be the same. Though if we're including Hardhome and Spoils of War, those are above Blackwater.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:40:08 GMT -5
All of the battle episodes* are in my top 10, including Blackwater, but it's admittedly my least favourite one now. Not only because of its technical limitations, but also because in the long run it turned out to be relatively inconsequential compared to the other episodes. The battle itself didn't really change the status quo that much. The biggest change to come out of that episode was the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, but that would have happened regardless of the battle. It was not a direct consequence of it. Breakfest is right in that Blackwater contains the best dialogue and best character moments out of all these episodes. But in terms of emotions/pathos, spectacle and most importantly impact, all the other episodes are a lot stronger. Also, since this is a visual medium, I do think the visuals are just as important as characterisation. *I count 209, 409, 508, 609 and 704. Visuals are important sure, and I think Blackwater still looks great for the most part. But I put the visible budgetary improvements below story, dialogue, character, and cinematography regardless of budget too, in importance. I wouldn't expect everyone to be the same. Though if we're including Hardhome and Spoils of War, those are above Blackwater. Maybe this is semantics, but I'm using "visuals" as an umbrella term for a lot of things here, including cinematography, lighting, colours etc. I'm not referring to CGI only. Furthermore, I'd argue that Blackwater is the "weakest" episode in terms of story for reasons I already mentioned. It simply had the least impact on the overall story. Where Blackwater excels is with regard to characterisation and dialogue. However, in terms of themes and story, I would argue that all of the other episodes have more depth and meaning than Blackwater.
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breakfest
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Post by breakfest on Aug 9, 2017 16:50:04 GMT -5
Visuals are important sure, and I think Blackwater still looks great for the most part. But I put the visible budgetary improvements below story, dialogue, character, and cinematography regardless of budget too, in importance. I wouldn't expect everyone to be the same. Though if we're including Hardhome and Spoils of War, those are above Blackwater. Maybe this is semantics, but I'm using "visuals" as an umbrella term for a lot of things here, including cinematography, lighting, colours etc. I'm not referring to CGI only. Furthermore, I'd argue that Blackwater is the "weakest" episode in terms of story for reasons I already mentioned. It simply had the least impact on the overall story. Where Blackwater excels is with regard to characterisation and dialogue. However, in terms of themes and story, I would argue that all of the other episodes have more depth and meaning than Blackwater. Nah visuals does cover a lot, and the other two battles certainly looks better and do a better job of mapping out the location and changing stakes of the battle. To be fair a lot of these aspects have overlap: the ways characters are written and react to each other has an impact on story; likewise the dialogue is a reflection of character. I guess it's more that I love the way the story of the battle is told above and beyond the effect the battle has on the overall plot. It helps that The Hound and Cersei are in my top few characters and this is one of the strongest episodes ever for those two. Blackwater is huge for so many characters. Tyrion hits his peak as a strategist and a leader before being briskly brought back down to earth; The Hound's fear of fire coming to the surface; Cersei's mentorship of Sansa hitting a hilariously dark point. Moments like that just hit me harder than moments in the other two battles - which I also love, but have more problems with. Actually it might just come down to the fact that I find Blackwater near flawless and the other two just barely shy. It's close.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 17:12:10 GMT -5
Maybe this is semantics, but I'm using "visuals" as an umbrella term for a lot of things here, including cinematography, lighting, colours etc. I'm not referring to CGI only. Furthermore, I'd argue that Blackwater is the "weakest" episode in terms of story for reasons I already mentioned. It simply had the least impact on the overall story. Where Blackwater excels is with regard to characterisation and dialogue. However, in terms of themes and story, I would argue that all of the other episodes have more depth and meaning than Blackwater. Nah visuals does cover a lot, and the other two battles certainly looks better and do a better job of mapping out the location and changing stakes of the battle. To be fair a lot of these aspects have overlap: the ways characters are written and react to each other has an impact on story; likewise the dialogue is a reflection of character. I guess it's more that I love the way the story of the battle is told above and beyond the effect the battle has on the overall plot. It helps that The Hound and Cersei are in my top few characters and this is one of the strongest episodes ever for those two. Blackwater is huge for so many characters. Tyrion hits his peak as a strategist and a leader before being briskly brought back down to earth; The Hound's fear of fire coming to the surface; Cersei's mentorship of Sansa hitting a hilariously dark point. Moments like that just hit me harder than moments in the other two battles - which I also love, but have more problems with. Actually it might just come down to the fact that I find Blackwater near flawless and the other two just barely shy. It's close. I think you are right. Ultimately, it comes down to the moments to which we have the strongest emotional reaction. This is - of course - completely subjective. I agree with what you said about Cersei's mentorship of Sansa. In fact, that's my favourite moment from Blackwater. However, because of personal reasons, I have a stronger reaction to some of the scenes in the other episodes. For instance, I related to Jon's struggle in 609 in a profound way, which is something that rarely ever happens. That moment when a deeply depressed Jon started to struggle for breath and held on to life, because his survival instinct kicked in still gives me chills. It's in that episode that he became an existential hero. He came to the brutal realisation that he wants to live, despite life's absurdity. Jon recognises that he wants to fight even though there is no salvation and no reward. Man, I relate so much to that for reasons I don't wanna disclose right now. All of that was conveyed without a single line of dialogue by the way, which I find very impressive. For me personally, Blackwater was never able to touch me on such a basic human level. I missed that in Blackwater, which in the end is still in my top 10 for being incredible entertainment (even though the other episodes are more than just entertainment to me). But it's cool that we can all love things for different reasons.
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breakfest
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Post by breakfest on Aug 9, 2017 17:26:36 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I love Jon's arc in the episode. Easily the best thing about it.
We don't get to choose who which battle episodes we love.
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Post by nikma on Aug 9, 2017 17:48:18 GMT -5
I love them all.
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Post by Envie on Aug 9, 2017 18:14:32 GMT -5
Jon recognises that he wants to fight even though there is no salvation and no reward. Man, I relate so much to that for reasons I don't wanna disclose right now. I think most of us reach this realization at some point our real lives. While not as dramatic as Jon's live or die situation after a seemingly meaningless return to life, we can definitely relate. You don't live for the better life you hope comes later ... you live for the one you have now. Jon's struggle to survive is so raw and so real we can't help but feel real emotions for him during that battle. He gave a little nod and pulled out his sword as if accepting his fate was just to die again. But that wasn't his fate and maybe he doesn't believe in fate now that he's seen the other side. But he believes in life and the lives of his people. Fierce stuff. It definitely made me appreciate Jon Snow a whole lot more than before his death. I think his wisdom and calm acceptance are the perfect temper to Dany's fire too. I love that they had her turn to him for advice in 7x04. We're seeing their two sides come together and begin what we hope will win the war for the dawn.
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