konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Aug 17, 2017 14:18:20 GMT -5
seeing pyke again, even in s8, would make it less frustrating that they used it on the map for two eps where no one was in the iron islands instead of at least showing casterly rock in 704. (since the lion sigil is blatantly missing in kl) the opening map has been disappointing this year lol. still a stag on KL, no Casterly Rock, no Highgarden. I think whoever the animators are got lazy lol. I imagine she's belowdecks in the Silence. They brought her out of the Red Keep when Euron rode out after all instead of leaving her in the dungeons there. She's probably the show's equivalent to Falia Flowers, although hopefully not pregnant by Euron and not had her tongue cut out. If they don't show her in the finale, Euron will at least reference her in the Dragonpit. Hopefully we'll actually see her though, maybe with Euron when he's sailing back into KL. One would hope that Theon realizes in s8 that Euron's not actually at Pyke before leading his raid there. As interesting as such a shaggydog story would be, it would be a consideration of time. Unless it's just like a three minute sequence in the premiere. EDIT: Though come to think of it, that'd be a pretty good scene to lead into his return to KL.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 14:22:08 GMT -5
Moving this over TheWhiteDevil-"I'm starting to think that keeping Cersei in a position of power really damaged the season, it created a lot of contrivances, like Daenerys not taking the Red Keep and just the Red Keep with her Dragons... I get the necessity to have Westeros accept her but how have they been accomplishing that actually? I fail to grasp Tyrion's plans. It feels like there is no plan. I'm saying that because I truly did not like the Wight Hunt idea and execution and the call for it arise out of the need to convince Cersei. Hence IMO Cersei being on the Throne really messes things up. And the Westerosi backing her up, supposedly, after the Sept Incident seem rather flimsy. Considering how she obtained her power...I don't know. Problem is, I have no idea where else she could have been... and I'm loving the season a great deal. It just feels weird in some spots I will think about this some more. Not really sure I managed to explain myself properly or at all." Nikma -"You can like it or not, but keeping Cersei in power will make S8 the best season yet. Without her, Jaime, Gregor and Euron, S8 would be just humans vs monsters. There are hidden tunnels in KL, Cersei wouldn't just wait for her in the Red Keep." It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it. It's just a matter of logic, The are holes in it, imo. Beside loosing KL would not translate as Cersei being out of the game. Quite the opposite. I don`t think you are nitpicking here, what bothers me about this is the execution. Several characters have said if the dothraki and dragons are used game over war is done within a day-namely Yara,Tyrion,Davos,Jon,Daenerys and even Jaime. With that said, Tyrion advises against using this force because of civilian death toll and PR. Fine great set up, now we have Daenerys fighting with both hands tied behind her back against Cersei who has no limits and is willing to do anything to stay in power. In that case it becomes a fair fight actually advantage Cersei, but we know Daenerys has the trump card and is not in such dire straits that she has to use them, she actually finds a middle ground and uses them against the Lannister army in an open fiend, bad PR, but no civilian deaths. Where they lose it is when the Tarlys are burned, suddenly Tyrion and Varys are freaking out about how she`s showing Mad King tendencies, considering she's willingly fighting with a handicap, is this really the time to question to her sanity? For listening to Tyrion's disastrous plan maybe, but come on for that? No way. The second and much bigger issue I have with this is that Tyrion is all of a sudden an idiot and Varys has no intelligence to provide. It's as if Danys entire war council lost brain cells; its winter in a world where winter lasts YEARS, you're in a war and armies need to eat, the Reach is not just a tempting target it becomes central. Gold means nothing if the army is starving. Furthermore, Tyrion is so focused on the PR front (foreign invader, army of savages etc) and winning Westerosi lords, he doesn't consider that Reach lords would be the first group Cersei appeals to? Olenna has known Randyll Tarly his entire life (according to him) she's not thinking hmm he's a bit of xenophobe he could be an issue, I'm an old woman last of a house I married into, and the Tyrells are seen as usurpers of Highgarden I could be in trouble keeping my bannermen in line? Those are just a few issues I have, whole plot line didn't work, its not nitpicking, its ridiculous. They are trying to shoehorn Cersei in and it was executed badly IMHO. Loosing the Reach the way they did was incredibly shortsighted. It is hard to believe Tyrion and even Varys did not realize what was going on. Or maybe even Olenna. Anybody really. Perhaps Yara since she has a rather militar upbringing and an history of raiding and pillaging. She should know a good target when she sees one. I agree with you.
|
|
jared
Rhaegal
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear ..."
@jared
Posts: 270
Likes: 878
inherit
101
0
Jul 23, 2020 20:18:10 GMT -5
878
jared
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear ..."
270
Oct 10, 2016 20:08:57 GMT -5
October 2016
jared
|
Post by jared on Aug 17, 2017 14:25:11 GMT -5
A good question now is where is Yara? Last we saw her she was in the Red Keep, but then we know Euron went to Casterly Rock. Did he bring her with him, or is she still there? Or is she somewhere else? Captive on Pyke? I would think that Yara will either be a captive in the Red Keep, or Euron is keeping her prisoner on the Silence (which keeps her around for him to casually torment as he sees fit). I seriously doubt that she'll be imprisoned on Pyke. At the end of Season 7, Euron is sailing across the Narrow Sea to retrieve the Golden Company from Essos for Cersei. Once he collects them, he'll presumably be bringing them back to King's Landing, and then he'll probably be sticking around (with Jaime gone, Cersei is likely going to want to keep her remaining allies close). If Yara is a captive on Pyke, then Theon's mission to rescue her would mostly likely involve him facing off against a bunch of nameless Ironborn redshirts. For the confrontation to be appropriately dramatic, he really needs to face off against Euron once again. As an added bonus, setting the Yara/Theon/Euron confrontation in close proximity to King's Landing draws all of those characters into Cersei's orbit as well, so she isn't quite so isolated in the final season (although I continue to subscribe to the theory that characters like Tyrion and Sansa will head south to deal with her as well). I do wonder if we'll see Yara at all in the finale. If we do, I think it will be only a very brief shot - e.g. we see her sitting in some squalid dark cell, and Euron walks by and laughs at her. I had feared that we might see some kind of torture scene, but I no longer think we will. If any such torture happened, it happened offscreen.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 14:27:37 GMT -5
The Golden Company could provide some nice twists. I do feel sometimes like Daenerys belongs to Essos more than anywhere else, her fight against slavery is what truly started her legend to me and elevated her among other rulers. However I think what she really needs is to find a home within a family, a kindred spirit...a King in the North most likely. Cersei's story seems to still have a lot of hold over from the Aegon plot, Dorne, the Reach, Euron, the Golden Company are part of Winds of winter. I can't even figure out why Euron is working for her but I can't imagine it ends well. To Cersei it's ego driven, she thinks he wants her and he is so dumb she can just keep him the hook. But why would Euron do anything for, her? He wants power? He could smash KL in a day. Not only is he her only ally, but the only threat to him is Dany. Tyrell army, and house destroyed. Freys destroyed and Riverlands off the table, Dorne off the table, Tarly army destroyed, Lannister army wrecked, she is down to Stannis levels and like Stannis is getting a loan to aquire sellswords. He could take Cersei, KL, and all the gold in a day and she has no way to stop him. Meanwhile the north and Vale, and Dothraki, and Unsullied are with Dany. What the hell is Euron waiting for? He is just mindlessly doing what she wants for no particular reason. What he is a man of his word? Contrived is an understatement. The entire country is divided and every army is wrecked, leadership is down too Team Dany Jon easily the most powerful force. Cersei who has almost no leg to stand on, her only strength is Euron, and of course Euron. Euron has no clue about the army of the dead. So his motivation to not act like an Iron Born is Cersei going I will reward you. Why would the Golden Company even take a contract with her? They are from Essos. They know exactly what Dany can do. Umm so you lost your army and you want us to come there and die for you. Yes but I will pay you. It is contrived to say the last and most of Cersei current storyline, surely seems molded over book Aegon's storyline. Mind I would take Cersei over BookAegon anyday, I'm also aware how difficult crafting a narrative pattern for her must have been, all considered, I'm just a little miffed here and there.
|
|
jared
Rhaegal
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear ..."
@jared
Posts: 270
Likes: 878
inherit
101
0
Jul 23, 2020 20:18:10 GMT -5
878
jared
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear ..."
270
Oct 10, 2016 20:08:57 GMT -5
October 2016
jared
|
Post by jared on Aug 17, 2017 14:33:04 GMT -5
Another, somewhat forgotten finale scene that was mentioned in the leaks and semi-confirmed by filming reports is Varys starting to rebuild his intelligence network. Reportedly, he approaches one of his (former) little birds, asks her how Qyburn is treating her, and then says something along the lines of "You know what's better than having one very good friend? Two very good friends." The little bird in question, Frances, is the young girl who helped trap and murder Pycelle last year. She's played by Annette Hannah, who was spotted in Spain during filming late last year. watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-cast-tours-seville-season-six-character-appear-finale/Varys's diminished spy network has been a signficant complication for Dany this season. In the leaked script treatments for Episode 2, he openly admits that his spy network has deteriorated since he went into exile, thanks to Qyburn and general distance. I kind of wish that line had made it into the final cut of the episode - it may have saved us some percentage of tiresome "Varys is a mole in Dany's camp" theories. But regardless, it seems like he will be getting some of his mojo back in the finale, heading into the final season. This may be how Dany and Jon learn that Cersei has double-crossed them (the other vector for that information would be for Jaime to reveal it once he arrives in the North).
|
|
inherit
141
0
Mar 25, 2021 1:08:21 GMT -5
436
daeronthegood
551
Jul 4, 2017 5:54:31 GMT -5
July 2017
daeronthegood
|
Post by daeronthegood on Aug 17, 2017 14:55:13 GMT -5
Cersei's story seems to still have a lot of hold over from the Aegon plot, Dorne, the Reach, Euron, the Golden Company are part of Winds of winter. I can't even figure out why Euron is working for her but I can't imagine it ends well. To Cersei it's ego driven, she thinks he wants her and he is so dumb she can just keep him the hook. But why would Euron do anything for, her? He wants power? He could smash KL in a day. Not only is he her only ally, but the only threat to him is Dany. Tyrell army, and house destroyed. Freys destroyed and Riverlands off the table, Dorne off the table, Tarly army destroyed, Lannister army wrecked, she is down to Stannis levels and like Stannis is getting a loan to aquire sellswords. He could take Cersei, KL, and all the gold in a day and she has no way to stop him. Meanwhile the north and Vale, and Dothraki, and Unsullied are with Dany. What the hell is Euron waiting for? He is just mindlessly doing what she wants for no particular reason. What he is a man of his word? Contrived is an understatement. The entire country is divided and every army is wrecked, leadership is down too Team Dany Jon easily the most powerful force. Cersei who has almost no leg to stand on, her only strength is Euron, and of course Euron. Euron has no clue about the army of the dead. So his motivation to not act like an Iron Born is Cersei going I will reward you. Why would the Golden Company even take a contract with her? They are from Essos. They know exactly what Dany can do. Umm so you lost your army and you want us to come there and die for you. Yes but I will pay you. It is contrived to say the last and most of Cersei current storyline, surely seems molded over book Aegon's storyline. Mind I would take Cersei over BookAegon anyday, I'm also aware how difficult crafting a narrative pattern for her must have been, all considered, I'm just a little miffed here and there. Interestingly enough what would have worked better is Cersei losing and losing badly, having Kings Landing surrounded and Cersei threatening to blow up the city with wildfire. In that scenario, Euron could've taken out the sand snakes and even have Tyrell army lose due to treachery by the Tarlys, but executed in a way that doesn't make Olenna, Tyrion, Dany and Varys into complete fools. Drop the Casterly Rock nonsense, have a big battle like spoils of war and Kings Landing under siege and surrounded with an unstable Cersei and a traumatised Jaime. Jon goes off on his crazy wight hunt, because he must prove to everyone about the WW threat by calling a great council of lords. The parlay at the dragon pit happens and boom Cersei still on the throne, our heroes don't look like complete fools. What really bothers me though, is that Tyrion believing Cersei would care about the WW given proof. Knowing his sister he should be the first to say, she will use this to stab us in the back she must be eliminated and a united Westeros face off against this threat. No he's the one that comes up with this crazy idea to prove to Cersei of all people the need for co-operation. I mean come on. If you're going to shift the story to the WW a better dramatic tension would be the lives of people in KL vs uniting Westeros against an extinction level event because keeping Cersei in power is bad bad idea. This whole thing was executed badly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 15:08:47 GMT -5
It is contrived to say the last and most of Cersei current storyline, surely seems molded over book Aegon's storyline. Mind I would take Cersei over BookAegon anyday, I'm also aware how difficult crafting a narrative pattern for her must have been, all considered, I'm just a little miffed here and there. Interestingly enough what would have worked better is Cersei losing and losing badly, having Kings Landing surrounded and Cersei threatening to blow up the city with wildfire. In that scenario, Euron could've taken out the sand snakes and even have Tyrell army lose due to treachery by the Tarlys, but executed in a way that doesn't make Olenna, Tyrion, Dany and Varys into complete fools. Drop the Casterly Rock nonsense, have a big battle like spoils of war and Kings Landing under siege and surrounded with an unstable Cersei and a traumatised Jaime. Jon goes off on his crazy wight hunt, because he must prove to everyone about the WW threat by calling a great council of lords. The parlay at the dragon pit happens and boom Cersei still on the throne, our heroes don't look like complete fools. What really bothers me though, is that Tyrion believing Cersei would care about the WW given proof. Knowing his sister he should be the first to say, she will use this to stab us in the back she must be eliminated and a united Westeros face off against this threat. No he's the one that comes up with this crazy idea to prove to Cersei of all people the need for co-operation. I mean come on. If you're going to shift the story to the WW a better dramatic tension would be the lives of people in KL vs uniting Westeros against an extinction level event because keeping Cersei in power is bad bad idea. This whole thing was executed badly. Whoa, that would have been absolutely better. I was failing to imagine a scenario in my head but having Cersei Keep KL hostage would have been enough to stay Daenerys's hand. Euron taking out the Sand Snakes and the Tarlys rising against the Tyrells in such a stalemate scenario would have made more sense that what actually happened, Daenerys would not be able to intervene because of the KL threat while Tyrion and Varys would work on a way to evaluate the city. Jaimie would talk Cersei into a "cease fire" and bring her to the Dragonpit. And a Dragonpit scene involving all of Westeros lords would have been better, the smaller Houses need to be aware as well. Not all bannermen would simply follow their lieges North to fight a somehow mysterious and incredible threat.
|
|
inherit
141
0
Mar 25, 2021 1:08:21 GMT -5
436
daeronthegood
551
Jul 4, 2017 5:54:31 GMT -5
July 2017
daeronthegood
|
Post by daeronthegood on Aug 17, 2017 15:14:24 GMT -5
Interestingly enough what would have worked better is Cersei losing and losing badly, having Kings Landing surrounded and Cersei threatening to blow up the city with wildfire. In that scenario, Euron could've taken out the sand snakes and even have Tyrell army lose due to treachery by the Tarlys, but executed in a way that doesn't make Olenna, Tyrion, Dany and Varys into complete fools. Drop the Casterly Rock nonsense, have a big battle like spoils of war and Kings Landing under siege and surrounded with an unstable Cersei and a traumatised Jaime. Jon goes off on his crazy wight hunt, because he must prove to everyone about the WW threat by calling a great council of lords. The parlay at the dragon pit happens and boom Cersei still on the throne, our heroes don't look like complete fools. What really bothers me though, is that Tyrion believing Cersei would care about the WW given proof. Knowing his sister he should be the first to say, she will use this to stab us in the back she must be eliminated and a united Westeros face off against this threat. No he's the one that comes up with this crazy idea to prove to Cersei of all people the need for co-operation. I mean come on. If you're going to shift the story to the WW a better dramatic tension would be the lives of people in KL vs uniting Westeros against an extinction level event because keeping Cersei in power is bad bad idea. This whole thing was executed badly. Whoa, that would have been absolutely better. I was failing to imagine a scenario in my head but having Cersei Keep KL hostage would have been enough to stay Daenerys's hand. Euron taking out the Sand Snakes and the Tarlys rising against the Tyrells in such a stalemate scenario would have made more sense that what actually happened, Daenerys would not be able to intervene because of the KL threat while Tyrion and Varys would work on a way to evaluate the city. Jaimie would talk Cersei into a "cease fire" and bring her to the Dragonpit. And a Dragonpit scene involving all of Westeros lords would have been better, the smaller Houses need to be aware as well. Not all bannermen would simply follow their lieges North to fight a somehow mysterious and incredible threat. They could be saving the KL hostage storyline for next season and have it be Cersei's big moment. If they never go with it, what a wasted opportunity, because what we've seen has been kind of a mess.
|
|
inherit
141
0
Mar 25, 2021 1:08:21 GMT -5
436
daeronthegood
551
Jul 4, 2017 5:54:31 GMT -5
July 2017
daeronthegood
|
Post by daeronthegood on Aug 17, 2017 15:17:45 GMT -5
But there is comedy in the tragedy of this ridiculous storyline. The crazy plan to convince Cersei of all people to play nice is what gets the NK a dragon to break down the wall. And it will the fault of Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys and in that order.
|
|
konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Aug 17, 2017 15:19:27 GMT -5
Whoa, that would have been absolutely better. I was failing to imagine a scenario in my head but having Cersei Keep KL hostage would have been enough to stay Daenerys's hand. Euron taking out the Sand Snakes and the Tarlys rising against the Tyrells in such a stalemate scenario would have made more sense that what actually happened, Daenerys would not be able to intervene because of the KL threat while Tyrion and Varys would work on a way to evaluate the city. Jaimie would talk Cersei into a "cease fire" and bring her to the Dragonpit. And a Dragonpit scene involving all of Westeros lords would have been better, the smaller Houses need to be aware as well. Not all bannermen would simply follow their lieges North to fight a somehow mysterious and incredible threat. They could be saving the KL hostage storyline for next season and have it be Cersei's big moment. I'm sure they will. I think if they'd gone quite far while Jaime was in KL that would've driven him over the edge. So they're saving it so that some of the people fighting up north, including Jaime, have to go back south to try and rectify that situation. But having her make the exact same threat as the Mad King would be too much for him. That's the last card Cersei has to play, so since it was decided for her to be in s8, she couldn't play it yet.
|
|
inherit
47
0
Jul 8, 2016 21:59:12 GMT -5
2,275
TheArchmaester
1,052
Jul 8, 2016 21:50:03 GMT -5
July 2016
thearchmaester
|
Post by TheArchmaester on Aug 17, 2017 15:33:16 GMT -5
I don't mind that they're leaving King's Landing for season 8, though it may be a tad contrived. KL is the big prize. The whole story will probably climax there.
This season could have used another episode though to make the transition from conquering to saving the world more satisfying. For example, the Riverlands is in ruins. A short scene of Dany going to Riverrun with the Tully loyalists (probably) flocking to her would have been nice. And she could have done some damage to the Westerlands.
Maybe scenes like this will make it into season 8 anyway.
|
|
inherit
47
0
Jul 8, 2016 21:59:12 GMT -5
2,275
TheArchmaester
1,052
Jul 8, 2016 21:50:03 GMT -5
July 2016
thearchmaester
|
Post by TheArchmaester on Aug 17, 2017 15:40:56 GMT -5
The crazy plan to convince Cersei of all people to play nice is what gets the NK a dragon to break down the wall. And it will the fault of Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys and in that order. At some point they will have to explain if the irony here is intentional or not
|
|
konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Aug 17, 2017 15:45:33 GMT -5
The crazy plan to convince Cersei of all people to play nice is what gets the NK a dragon to break down the wall. And it will the fault of Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys and in that order. At some point they will have to explain if the irony here is intentional or not It was on the NK's part. He's playing Bran and the R'hollorists like a fiddle.
|
|
nikma
Syrax
@nikma
Posts: 2,190
Likes: 1,533
inherit
117
0
Aug 23, 2022 7:27:26 GMT -5
1,533
nikma
2,190
Feb 22, 2017 18:41:08 GMT -5
February 2017
nikma
|
Post by nikma on Aug 17, 2017 15:49:44 GMT -5
As I said before, I find Cersei being able to keep KL in the current situation and considering Daenerys's forces and advisors, Tyrion and Varys, who should be two of the most clever men in the 7Kingdoms, quite weak from a logical, pragmatic and realistic point of view and that for me, makes for weak narrative. That is the point. But what's the point if they take KL and Cersei still has power from CR?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
90
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 21, 2024 12:32:06 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 16:17:57 GMT -5
As I said before, I find Cersei being able to keep KL in the current situation and considering Daenerys's forces and advisors, Tyrion and Varys, who should be two of the most clever men in the 7Kingdoms, quite weak from a logical, pragmatic and realistic point of view and that for me, makes for weak narrative. That is the point. But what's the point if they take KL and Cersei still has power from CR? The fact that Daenerys has not taken KL feels very contrived to me, given the reasons the show offered. Cersei, even without KL, would still be the Head of House Lannisters, have an army, resources and most likely she would still have an alliance with Euron. She would not be out of the Game, so her story would not need to close with her loosing KL. I'm aware that it would have less narrative impact having Cersei as a menace from the outside and I understand the need to keep her on the Throne to Season 8. I just wish they had done so in a more plausible manner. One that did not involve Tyrion, Varys and Daenerys looking like complete fools. But all is well. I'm not unhappy with the season, I'm loving it a great deal. It was just an observation on what I consider a weak spot in the storytelling.
|
|