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Post by dje on Aug 28, 2017 20:46:55 GMT -5
At first, I was pretty upset at the thought of Jon being named Aegon, I liked Jaehaerys best, followed by Aemon. I couldn't understand why D&D would make that kind of a change. I am pretty sure that GRRM told them what his real name was, so now I think maybe he really is named Aegon. I can't think of a reason that they would change his name, sure, they've changed names in the past, but never major characters. I don't buy they are merging his story with Faegon either, I still think he is just a Blackfyre pretender. Anyhow, I would love to hear your thoughts on his name? We have a whole lot of time on our hands now
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 28, 2017 21:23:11 GMT -5
My choices were the same as yours, only reverse. I really, really wanted him to be Aemon, as Maester Aemon was the only Targaryen he knew. As well as the fact that Rhaegar and his great-great-uncle corresponded throughout the years. We haven't been given enough backstory to understand why Rhaegar had such an insistence on the PtwP being 'Aegon'. It taints the love story with a fanaticism that borders on obsession. It would be nice if while Gilly is helping Sam with his correspondence classes she were to discover the prophecy that started this whole thing, or perhaps a diary from Rhaegar himself.
It's like we've been given just enough of the backstory but not enough to build the case. Now it just seems odd and a little creepy. It's not like Aegon had to be the name. At that point there were several others that could have been used, including Jaehaerys.
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Post by dje on Aug 28, 2017 21:41:30 GMT -5
Yea, I agree. We need more details(Preferably from TWOW) to determine why, and if he is even really named Aegon. But if not, why would D&D change it? I mean, he'll still always be Jon to me.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 28, 2017 22:03:42 GMT -5
Which is why I question Sam and Bran even bringing it up to Jon? Right now before the Great War is no time to shake your COmmander's faith in himself. Perhaps that's a conversation for after the wars are done.
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Rhaegal
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Post by dje on Aug 28, 2017 22:27:58 GMT -5
Which is why I question Sam and Bran even bringing it up to Jon? Right now before the Great War is no time to shake your COmmander's faith in himself. Perhaps that's a conversation for after the wars are done. I agree, but he'll find out early on I think to create conflict. Although, I think it will be resolved quickly between D and J.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 28, 2017 23:15:21 GMT -5
My choices were the same as yours, only reverse. I really, really wanted him to be Aemon, as Maester Aemon was the only Targaryen he knew. As well as the fact that Rhaegar and his great-great-uncle corresponded throughout the years. We haven't been given enough backstory to understand why Rhaegar had such an insistence on the PtwP being 'Aegon'. It taints the love story with a fanaticism that borders on obsession. It would be nice if while Gilly is helping Sam with his correspondence classes she were to discover the prophecy that started this whole thing, or perhaps a diary from Rhaegar himself. It's like we've been given just enough of the backstory but not enough to build the case. Now it just seems odd and a little creepy. It's not like Aegon had to be the name. At that point there were several others that could have been used, including Jaehaerys. I'll take it as canon for now, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it, which I'm not. And I agree with everything you've said.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Aug 29, 2017 8:14:45 GMT -5
Aemon is my only choice and naming him Aegon was my biggest disappointment in the whole episode. Aegon just doesn't make sense to me. I think the books will be different, especially since we already have an Aegon Targaryen running around there.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 29, 2017 9:59:53 GMT -5
Jon's Targ name is not that "big" a plot point that D&D might not have changed it. D&D are not changing the character's name that everyone uses -- Jon -- but his birth name that might never be used by him. Why would D&D change the name? -- not sure. Maybe they did not want two characters in the entire series to have the same name (like Robin and Robert -- even though Robert dies fairly quickly). Given that the prophecy of TPTWP has largely been eliminated, maybe D&D did not want to explain how Rhaegar and Aemon were close, the reason Rhaegar might have named his son Aemon, so D&D simplified the matter and gave Jon the "biggest" Targ name. Maybe D&D preferred the symbolism of Jon as the greatest Targ following in the steps of the other great Targ rather than a blind guy holed up at the Wall. Who knows? But we know that D&D have changed names before -- for relatively unimportant reasons -- so no reason to assume that D&D did not make this change. And maybe D&D are just giving a little "twist" to book readers who will assume Jon's name is Aegon but eventually find out in the books that his name is Aemon. I really don't know -- but the issue of the name is not so central to the eventual outcome for the main characters that it would be off limits for change.
So why do I think Aemon is more likely in the books? Because I think GRRM has set it up that way. Aemon is the only name that would have an impact on Jon and on the majority of book readers (the one who do not read side books or analyze the issues to death as we do on this board). I will not go into all the clues that Jon's name is Aemon (I have done so elsewhere and can go into it here if need be), but the idea that GRRM is going to have Rhaegar with two different sons with the same name -- even if one dies in infancy, is a bit hard to imagine. D&D can sweep this issue under the rug by just never mentioning that the other son was named Aegon -- but GRRM does not have that luxury -- Aegon as the name of Rhaegar's son is quite prominent in the story.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Aug 29, 2017 10:15:05 GMT -5
I will not go into all the clues that Jon's name is Aemon (I have done so elsewhere and can go into it here if need be), but the idea that GRRM is going to have Rhaegar with two different sons with the same name -- even if one dies in infancy, is a bit hard to imagine. D&D can sweep this issue under the rug by just never mentioning that the other son was named Aegon -- but GRRM does not have that luxury -- Aegon as the name of Rhaegar's son is quite prominent in the story. Thank you! I agree 100% D&D changed the HotU and instead of Elia and Aegon, we saw Drogo and Rhaego. I believe you are right that 'Aegon' serves the purpose of the teleplay and regardless of what his real name is, the end result of the story won't change.
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Post by day dreamer on Aug 29, 2017 11:06:52 GMT -5
Not that I think Jon would ever use his Targaryen name but I wanted it to be Aemon because I liked Maestar Aemon. I really hope Aegon isn't what GRRM settled on too. It makes Rhaegar look like an even bigger twat than he already was.
I have trouble believing GRRM would allow an annulment in this story and not just let Rhaegar havie multiple wives. I can't understand what's so hard about that and why D&D couldn't have written it that way and just named him anything else besides what his other son was already named.
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Post by Singer of Death on Aug 29, 2017 17:11:25 GMT -5
Either Jon's name really is Aegon in the book, or Jon's name is Aemon, but the showrunners decided to change his name to Aegon to avoid confusion from distinguishing the known Aemon Targaryen of the Night Watch.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 29, 2017 17:26:27 GMT -5
^^ While avoiding confusion with Maester Aemon could be one reason -- there are other potential reasons for changing the name as well. In the books the relationship between Aemon and Rhaegar is noted in terms of exchanging information about the prophecy. Also the books have statements like Jon indicating he is Aemon the Dragonheart as a child -- setting up an irony that is not presented on the show. And the name Aegon as Rhaegar's first son is a big point in the books (given the introduction of YG) while that fact can be glossed over on the show.
So while Aemon would have the most impact to Jon and readers in the books -- not so much on the show. So on the show I think it possible that the image of Jon having "the" Targ name -- the original Targ in Westeros -- Aegon the Conqueror -- was an image that D&D thought the viewers could grab on to -- rather than trying to explain why the name Aemon would be significant to Rhaegar and Jon.
But I don't pretend to be able to read D&D's minds. They could have any number of idiosyncratic reasons for the name change. But we know that they have changed names for relatively weak reasons before (Yara, for example) -- and whether Jon's real name is Aegon or Aemon is not going to really affect the endgame and how the characters' situations are resolved. So D&D are free to change the name if they want (everyone will always think of him as Jon no matter his real Targ name).
And the books make much more sense with Jon as Aemon than Aegon (IMHO) -- but maybe GRRM will make Aegon make sense here. I don't disregard the possibility -- I just still think Aemon to be more likely.
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Post by lojzelote on Aug 30, 2017 8:27:15 GMT -5
I hate that Jon is Aegon 2.0, but I'm loving all the jokes it brought about: or
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Aug 30, 2017 11:22:34 GMT -5
^^ While avoiding confusion with Maester Aemon could be one reason -- there are other potential reasons for changing the name as well. In the books the relationship between Aemon and Rhaegar is noted in terms of exchanging information about the prophecy. Also the books have statements like Jon indicating he is Aemon the Dragonheart as a child -- setting up an irony that is not presented on the show. And the name Aegon as Rhaegar's first son is a big point in the books (given the introduction of YG) while that fact can be glossed over on the show. So while Aemon would have the most impact to Jon and readers in the books -- not so much on the show. So on the show I think it possible that the image of Jon having "the" Targ name -- the original Targ in Westeros -- Aegon the Conqueror -- was an image that D&D thought the viewers could grab on to -- rather than trying to explain why the name Aemon would be significant to Rhaegar and Jon. But I don't pretend to be able to read D&D's minds. They could have any number of idiosyncratic reasons for the name change. But we know that they have changed names for relatively weak reasons before (Yara, for example) -- and whether Jon's real name is Aegon or Aemon is not going to really affect the endgame and how the characters' situations are resolved. So D&D are free to change the name if they want (everyone will always think of him as Jon no matter his real Targ name). And the books make much more sense with Jon as Aemon than Aegon (IMHO) -- but maybe GRRM will make Aegon make sense here. I don't disregard the possibility -- I just still think Aemon to be more likely. I agree 100%. This was probably done to avoid confusion to the general audience and I can overlook it in the context of the show (we've overlooked a number of important things already) We're privy to the backstory of Aemon and Rhaegar's relationship and Jon's inner monologue that isn't evident in the show. GRRM may have his reasons if he is indeed Aegon, but I'm still figuring that Aemon is canon. This is when Jon has decided to abandon the Nights Watch and he thinks that Aemon stayed, even though his family was destroyed....he decides hes no Aemon Targaryen and leaves....but then he comes back...so yes, he is Aemon Targaryen.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 30, 2017 15:47:20 GMT -5
The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. This is when Jon has decided to abandon the Nights Watch and he thinks that Aemon stayed, even though his family was destroyed....he decides hes no Aemon Targaryen and leaves....but then he comes back...so yes, he is Aemon Targaryen. While I have seen that quote (or at least the last sentence from that quote) used many, many times to support the theory that Jon's Targ name is Aemon. Nevertheless, I don't recall having seen such a clear and succinct explanation for why that quote is so persuasive regarding Jon being Aemon Targaryen. Of course, while not noted by you in this particular post (although I know you support the following as well), by including the last name, this quote also supports the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (which some might believe has already been confirmed in the books based on the reveal in the last episode of the show, but the books might handle the issue quite differently such as no annulment angle) -- a piece of evidence supporting the marriage that I don't think I have ever considered before in such a context.
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