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Post by sercreighton on Apr 13, 2018 0:51:05 GMT -5
Here is something that just occured tome. Now that we have seen the Dorne plot I think it's safe to say it's by and large irrelevant. By removing FAegon it caused a lot pieces to martins puzzle to sort of be out of position. They spent some time moving those pieces back into place, some sooner like Sansa and some later like Jaime. We know for a fact that neither of those two belonged where they were. They also removed LSH.
Personally I would of taken LSH over Dorne but that can't be helped. But here is what I am getting at. Had they done Dorne off Camera. Myrcella could of been killed that way and Euron could of delt with Dorne much the same way Highgarden was delt with. But Jaimie, think about this, Jaime was suppose to be in the North, in the neck at the very least, near or with the Brotherhood. That means on the show had they skipped Dorne they could of done the Riverlands sooner, sent him off with Brie and Pod and then had them run into Beric and company. They could of made an excuse for Jaime to stay, oh look into the fire, taken prisoner whatever. But it very well could of led to Jaime, the Hound and Beric and Company at the wall. Maybe he went with them to take the black. Again whatever.
That also means Jamie could of been on the March north with Jon, Sandor, Beric, Thoros, Tormund, Gendry, and Jorah. Brie could of gone to Winterfell with Pod, she could of had her plot the same for the most part. Just after she leaves the Riverlands, maybe Jaime decides enough is enough as he did in the books goes to take the Black runs into these guys. And boom the Magnificent 7. Brie there or not there you can play it either way. But if you include her you got your 7 KG, The King, the Queen and the Kingsguard. And we know even not there she's still pretty much de facto KG. Sure she guards the Kingsisters, but that's part of the job. Thoros dies, but you got Pod. Now can you imagine the interactions with Jamie as well?
To me that feels like a much more natural plot from when he is in the Riverlands. And we know book wise he's headed to LSH and the brotherhood. I think Dorne cost them some opportunities. Perhaps Lena too, I know they like people to play off her, but his time with her was pretty under whelming. Dragonpit could of been arranged by Varys and Qyburn. Anyway it sort of hit me that Book Jamie may very well end up at the wall or something with LSH. Who I am guessing may be headed to Winterfell to see about this Arya getting married to a Bolton.
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Post by Envie on Apr 13, 2018 9:17:03 GMT -5
Here is something that just occured tome. Now that we have seen the Dorne plot I think it's safe to say it's by and large irrelevant. By removing FAegon it caused a lot pieces to martins puzzle to sort of be out of position. They spent some time moving those pieces back into place, some sooner like Sansa and some later like Jaime. We know for a fact that neither of those two belonged where they were. They also removed LSH. Martin has recently said the one character he wished had not been cut from the show was Stoneheart because of the key importance of her story arc. I still wonder what that is - and how the show is circumventing it for the ending. Still, we have to guess it wasn't THAT important (she's not an endgame changer) or the show writers couldn't have possibly eliminated her entirely. But as for Dorne, yes, I long ago realized it must not be a very important endgame factor either based on the shabby way they handled it in the show. I mean, if there's one story arc in the entire series that has been the laughingstock of all plots and terrible casting, dialogue and scenes, it's Dorne. Sadly. I'm sure there are Darkstar (haha) fans out there gnashing their teeth. I know there are also big Arianne fans put out she was eliminated from the show as well. Perhaps 1 casting for a great Arianne could have saved the story arc from the disaster of three badly done Sand Snakes, who knows. But in the end, we already know the fAegon story was just a side story to add another layer of doubt and mystery to who gets the throne. He never existed on the show so he can't possibly have ever been the one to win it. As for all the other player pieces you mentioned (Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, Beric, Sandor, etc) I think they were interchangeable and moving them around was one of the ways the writers did a good job of slimming down the enormously detailed storyline that could have otherwise been incredibly bogged down. Taking Sansa out of The Vale storyline almost entirely was a great decision despite the criticism many still give that choice of having her inserted into the Bolton/fArya role instead. I found the Vale chapters some of the most boring of all and I never liked Sansa much in the books. I absolutely love her on the show and that's all due to the show writers giving her an entirely different storyline that probably ends up in the same place anyways (back in Winterfell as Lady of the House). They may have messed up with Dorne, but they got Sansa/Bolton story just right.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 13, 2018 19:06:17 GMT -5
Where is this? Hello is anyone out there? I went to bed and I found myself in a storage place, the show writers have kidnapped my post and are attempting to silence me. I must escape, the world must know the truth. Let's see, to go north, I must go south, to go west I must go east, to click the button I must pass beneath the banner. EnvieYeah eliminating FAegon was huge, not sure why they kept Dorne at all. Can you imagine Darkstar on the show? "I am the night" It would either be amazing or jumping the shark. I actually had Sansa intersecting with FAegon. LSH is kind of easy to replace if you keep Beric, though I would of liked the horror aspect of her story. I think the big thing is you need an undead fire being. In the treatment Cat goes north of the wall on a mission about the Others. A lot of main plot points never really changed from the treatment. Dany, Jon and Arya survive in the treatment, so does Tyrion, no word on Sansa.
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Post by Envie on Apr 13, 2018 23:23:26 GMT -5
Where is this? Hello is anyone out there? I went to bed and I found myself in a storage place, the show writers have kidnapped my post and are attempting to silence me. I must escape, the world must know the truth. Let's see, to go north, I must go south, to go west I must go east, to click the button I must pass beneath the banner. Envie Yeah eliminating FAegon was huge, not sure why they kept Dorne at all. Can you imagine Darkstar on the show? "I am the night" It would either be amazing or jumping the shark. I actually had Sansa intersecting with FAegon. LSH is kind of easy to replace if you keep Beric, though I would of liked the horror aspect of her story. I think the big thing is you need an undead fire being. In the treatment Cat goes north of the wall on a mission about the Others. A lot of main plot points never really changed from the treatment. Dany, Jon and Arya survive in the treatment, so does Tyrion, no word on Sansa. You're so good at derailing threads off onto other topics you even got me pulled into it this time! I usually try to keep on the topic of Season 8 and nothing else, haven't even been reading most of the other posts and forums. But yeah... things are starting to get dull and such a long wait ahead, I suppose regressing into prior seasons and story debates is to be expected. I was never one of the fans who was terribly upset the show cut some of the side stories like fAegon, Arianne, Stoneheart. A lot of the Citadel stuff was also cut even though they did give Sam his time there, however brief it was, it served its purpose.
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Post by nikma on Apr 14, 2018 7:30:58 GMT -5
On the one hand I still like that we got Dorne, I like the look of that place, I liked majority of scenes, I liked that there was some kind of reaction to Oberyn's death. But on the other hand it was like a bunch of improvisations, without a real plan what to do with them.
Maybe cuting Myrcella from the story would solve everything. Cersei having only Tommem and Joffrey would be fine.
If D&D could do the show from the start again,with the knowledge that they have now, I think they would've cut Myrcella and Rickon.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 14, 2018 13:45:05 GMT -5
On the one hand I still like that we got Dorne, I like the look of that place, I liked majority of scenes, I liked that there was some kind of reaction to Oberyn's death. But on the other hand it was like a bunch of improvisations, without a real plan what to do with them. Maybe cuting Myrcella from the story would solve everything. Cersei having only Tommem and Joffrey would be fine. If D&D could do the show from the start again,with the knowledge that they have now, I think they would've cut Myrcella and Rickon. Rickon wasn't cut, he was shot. Serpentine, sepentine.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 14, 2018 15:19:16 GMT -5
Where is this? Hello is anyone out there? I went to bed and I found myself in a storage place, the show writers have kidnapped my post and are attempting to silence me. I must escape, the world must know the truth. Let's see, to go north, I must go south, to go west I must go east, to click the button I must pass beneath the banner. Envie Yeah eliminating FAegon was huge, not sure why they kept Dorne at all. Can you imagine Darkstar on the show? "I am the night" It would either be amazing or jumping the shark. I actually had Sansa intersecting with FAegon. LSH is kind of easy to replace if you keep Beric, though I would of liked the horror aspect of her story. I think the big thing is you need an undead fire being. In the treatment Cat goes north of the wall on a mission about the Others. A lot of main plot points never really changed from the treatment. Dany, Jon and Arya survive in the treatment, so does Tyrion, no word on Sansa. You're so good at derailing threads off onto other topics you even got me pulled into it this time! I usually try to keep on the topic of Season 8 and nothing else, haven't even been reading most of the other posts and forums. But yeah... things are starting to get dull and such a long wait ahead, I suppose regressing into prior seasons and story debates is to be expected. I was never one of the fans who was terribly upset the show cut some of the side stories like fAegon, Arianne, Stoneheart. A lot of the Citadel stuff was also cut even though they did give Sam his time there, however brief it was, it served its purpose. Always something to talk about. We got a year, and right now it's just wait and see. I don't drink so I avoid the the quill and tankard. You know I'll probably end up derailing this thread. I don't mean too, stuff just comes up. i tend to give the show a lot slack because it's not the books and don't expect it to be the books. In general when I watch it I usually end up trying to figure out why they made this choice or that. When the Sansa plot changed I told people on my old forum I understood the change and gave my reasons. Then they said I was pro rape. I just figured the Winterfell plot and the north was more important than the Vale. Which it is, it's far more central to the plot. Dorne I never understood, I honestly think they new Dorne was popular with book fans and did some location scouting and fell in love with what would be the Water gardens. Then they liked Bronn and Jaime together and gave them a plot. Honestly it was more about them than anything else. But I think it was half hearted and they did not give it their best effort. I don't think it's something they loved. What I is they loved Pedro, who nailed Oberyn, everyone loves Oberyn. Dorne is not that interesting without him. They ended up doing a modified Dorne plot that needs FAegon to really make sense. I think it would of served them better to focus on the Riverlands, you had established the Riverlands since season 1. You don't need LSH for it but more Beric would of worked. People liked the character to begin with, he had a great intro, and in episode 6 he just sold it. The way he handled and talked to Jon was perfect, and made perfect sense. I feel like the same thing happened with Euron, it feels half hearted. Trying to hard just to be worse then Ramsey. Giving him an unbeatable fleet, teleporting him, etc... It feels forced and he is nothing like Euron. Euron starts off seeming shallow, but then as his plot goes you find out how messed up he is. Here he's just oh I'm so crazy let's kill people, look I got crazy eyes. Euron was pure evil, on the Surface he's a lot like Darrio, underneath he's bat shit crazy, but very calculated. I think they should of skipped Dorne and established Euron, blue lips and all. The Iron born have a great plot, not sure why they skipped it. How do you skip a villian D who's so messed up that his book chapters have you going, Jesus he's a tool, and his sample chapter still surprises you and has you going, holy shit. In one chapter he made everyone forget about Ramsey and the Boltons.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 14, 2018 23:23:02 GMT -5
I suppose without doing the Dorne storyline, they could have killed Myrcella off-screen and Cersei gets her revenge in another way. With that change, it allows Jaime to go to the Riverlands in S5 and makes more room in S6 to enhance other plots. And I agree with you sercreighton , they likely could have introduced Euron earlier too closer to his book counterpart and plot with him invading the Reach. He could still become allies with Cersei like in the show as an opposition to Dany. Sam could have had more Oldtown plot in S6 as well. When Dany invades, besides Olenna and Yara and Theon, they could have potentially introduced some other houses like the Hightowers or maybe explore something in the Stormlands. Instead of having Varys with Tyrion in S6, he tries to pave the way for Dany in Westeros by securing these allies for Dany. Then Barristan could have ruled with Tyrion while Dany was with the Dothraki and died heroically during the Battle of Meereen. Shit... But with Oberyn's fate in S4, it made sense to follow up on his family and also not ignore Dorne, it's just the execution wasn't good.
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Post by nikma on Apr 15, 2018 5:01:36 GMT -5
I really don't think that they could have add all those thibgs just with cuting Dorne.
I mean Dorne had like 5 minutes in S6. How you can add Hightowers and Stormlands and all that if you cut just Dorne?
It gives them sometning around 35 minutes of screentime, you can't do all that in just 35 minutes.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 15, 2018 18:18:02 GMT -5
I suppose without doing the Dorne storyline, they could have killed Myrcella off-screen and Cersei gets her revenge in another way. With that change, it allows Jaime to go to the Riverlands in S5 and makes more room in S6 to enhance other plots. And I agree with you sercreighton , they likely could have introduced Euron earlier too closer to his book counterpart and plot with him invading the Reach. He could still become allies with Cersei like in the show as an opposition to Dany. Sam could have had more Oldtown plot in S6 as well. When Dany invades, besides Olenna and Yara and Theon, they could have potentially introduced some other houses like the Hightowers or maybe explore something in the Stormlands. Instead of having Varys with Tyrion in S6, he tries to pave the way for Dany in Westeros by securing these allies for Dany. Then Barristan could have ruled with Tyrion while Dany was with the Dothraki and died heroically during the Battle of Meereen. Shit... But with Oberyn's fate in S4, it made sense to follow up on his family and also not ignore Dorne, it's just the execution wasn't good. Cersei didn't really need a revenge plot with Dorne, her main advasaries were the Tyrells, in fact Myrcella need not die at all. Dorne does not have to support Dany or Cersei, Myrcella just acts as a Theon, simple Raven can explain the situation. Dorne just has to be nuetral. I mean if you can kill the Tyrells off with all of two minutes of screen time, I don't think audiences would be all what about the girl from 4-5 years ago. Sam in Old town is the POV, you can easily include events around him and even Jorah. Doesn't take much to introduce a lord, look at John at Winterfell, introduced a whole room full of lords. Yeah they could introduce the Hightowers, if you can introduce all the Dornish you can introduce one or two houses in Oldtown. "Sam take this letter to lord Hightower. Congrats the Hightowers are introduced. But mostly I would just redirect Jaime to river run. An extra 10 minutes their could go a long way. Then give Euron and Oldtown more time. You can do a lot with 20-30 minutes when you are adding to the time they already had it allows for a lot more depth. I would also cut the chamber pot scene which was pointless. At the very least shorten it. The whole thing is once you get to season 7 it becomes pretty obvious Dorne did not need to happen and vanishing like FAegon would do little to change the plot. They can be nuetral, and they have reason to be anyway. I don't know if you could get the battle for Meereen, I guess if you moved all the time to that event you could. Or a shorter version of it. Take out the Barristan fight save some time. Actually you probably could do it because most of the Meereen plot while Dany was away was just the writers stalling. Like let's get drunk and Make jokes with Tyrion. There are points where it's clear they are basically just filler and killing time. The setup is already there for a battle, 10-15 minutes and you got a full on battle. They Barrisatan stuff is like 10 minutes right there, just redirect it. Riverrun/Riverlands is easy, it's not a battle but more character development and setup. Does need a ton of extra time. A lot of it was just a focus on things that didn't need to happen. Jaime didn't need to return to KL, Cersei turns Tarly and he leads her army. Brotherhood are already well know, no intro needed, just some a setup, that can easily end on a cliffhanger. Dorne just made a lot of weird shit happen or blah stuff. No sharks? Trim off the filler and there is some and it would smooth things out and probably flow better. I bet if you took the time you could find 60-90 minutes. May not seem like much but for a show it's a hell of a lot of time. Its true you can't do everything but you could some things better, like Euron, and the Riverlands. Only thing about Meereen is could they then afford a battle. Riverrun is cheap, no real action or CGI. Extending Oldtown and Euron won't add much either. But a major battle, costs money. They got the dragon riding money, now you just need a ton of stunt men and extras, and cgi armies, though you got the Dothraki, they did show up even if only briefly, seems they wanted to save the good stuff for season 7 and 8.
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Post by Envie on Apr 15, 2018 23:04:45 GMT -5
When the Sansa plot changed I told people on my old forum I understood the change and gave my reasons. Then they said I was pro rape. I just figured the Winterfell plot and the north was more important than the Vale. Which it is, it's far more central to the plot. Wow, I really could not understand this mentality when that season and storyline took place with Sansa/Ramsay. I have heard it said on forums and even in reviews, so I know this strange criticism exists but I honestly cannot understand how this is the conclusion people come to when someone praises the Sansa/Bolton storyline. The actual rape is such a small part of the entire story arc, is far tamer than was written by the author in the book, and one relatively obscure character who was raped and abused by Ramsay is replaced with one much higher profile character who is raped and abused by Ramsay. How does this make the show or a viewer who liked the changes "pro rape?!" I am baffled. I just want to shout at people: "THIS ACT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK AND IT WAS REALLY GRAPHICALLY DESCRIBED THERE SO WHY ARE YOU SO MUCH MORE CRITICAL OF THE SHOW'S VERSION?!" Personally, I far prefer the way it was depicted on the show to the book. The book left me very uncomfortable and upset by what that poor girl went through. I'm not saying ANY rape is 'good' or better, but at least on the show, it was still uncomfortable to experience but was still tastefully done (not actually on screen in detail) and because it was a character we know much better, it made me angry instead of just full of pity and disgust. I wanted Sansa to not only survive and escape, but pay Ramsay back for what he did to her and others during his reign of terror ... and boy did she ever. I didn't feel much at all for the fArya character in the book other than as I said, discomfort, pity and disgust for Ramsay. The show's version gave life and the will to survive to the victim and for that, I believe it gave a much stronger positive message about survivors of rape which is something our society desperately needs. Sansa didn't just lay down and give up or die, she found a way to keep her chin up and move on and live again. A really great story of survival and growth for her character.
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Post by nikma on Apr 16, 2018 14:43:58 GMT -5
And D&D really showed the effects of rape on her in S6 and S7. It was something that became part of her character,part of her jorney. Not something they just ignore and made Sansa powerful.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 16, 2018 17:52:54 GMT -5
When the Sansa plot changed I told people on my old forum I understood the change and gave my reasons. Then they said I was pro rape. I just figured the Winterfell plot and the north was more important than the Vale. Which it is, it's far more central to the plot. Wow, I really could not understand this mentality when that season and storyline took place with Sansa/Ramsay. I have heard it said on forums and even in reviews, so I know this strange criticism exists but I honestly cannot understand how this is the conclusion people come to when someone praises the Sansa/Bolton storyline. The actual rape is such a small part of the entire story arc, is far tamer than was written by the author in the book, and one relatively obscure character who was raped and abused by Ramsay is replaced with one much higher profile character who is raped and abused by Ramsay. How does this make the show or a viewer who liked the changes "pro rape?!" I am baffled. I just want to shout at people: "THIS ACT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK AND IT WAS REALLY GRAPHICALLY DESCRIBED THERE SO WHY ARE YOU SO MUCH MORE CRITICAL OF THE SHOW'S VERSION?!" Personally, I far prefer the way it was depicted on the show to the book. The book left me very uncomfortable and upset by what that poor girl went through. I'm not saying ANY rape is 'good' or better, but at least on the show, it was still uncomfortable to experience but was still tastefully done (not actually on screen in detail) and because it was a character we know much better, it made me angry instead of just full of pity and disgust. I wanted Sansa to not only survive and escape, but pay Ramsay back for what he did to her and others during his reign of terror ... and boy did she ever. I didn't feel much at all for the fArya character in the book other than as I said, discomfort, pity and disgust for Ramsay. The show's version gave life and the will to survive to the victim and for that, I believe it gave a much stronger positive message about survivors of rape which is something our society desperately needs. Sansa didn't just lay down and give up or die, she found a way to keep her chin up and move on and live again. A really great story of survival and growth for her character. The whole thing got nuts, it was a huge debate. Critics claimed D&D did it as an act of sensationalism, or just for shock value. People acted shocked that a rape was occuring on HBO. Have they ever watched an HBO series before? I don't know if there is such a thing as tasteful rape, I think when D&D did it, it was about the reality of it, and yeah Martin was way more disturbing and graphic, but not visual, which is usually more impactful. I remember even critics saying things like Jessica Jones shows game of thrones how to do rape. Or Jessica gets rape right. I just kind of watched the whole thing and was like really? I think it hit some show viewers and critics hard because when the show started Sophie was just a kid. People watched her grow, so that can be a hard pill to swallow. A lot Sansa fans really lost it, they were going black dress, this is it, from Pawn to player... Eeeeeek Ramsey. So the whole change drove them mad, and they decided D&D had secretly wanted to rape Sophie. But then she off's Ramsey and they are all yeah, yeah "From pawn to player! Now she just needs to discover her magic wizarding ability, summon her dragons from Dany after she defeats her...easily, fly to KL, defeat Cersei, marry Jon and become the one True queen of Westeros."
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Post by Envie on Apr 17, 2018 8:57:37 GMT -5
I don't know if there is such a thing as tasteful rape, I think when D&D did it, it was about the reality of it, and yeah Martin was way more disturbing and graphic, but not visual, which is usually more impactful. No, that was probably not the best word to use. I think I meant it was respectful of the topic and of the actors too because that's a difficult one to do, especially as you said when the actress is young like Sophie and everyone has watched her grow up on the show. I felt like the writers should have been praised for this adaptation instead of criticized. They managed to take material from the book that was horrific and adapt it to the show in a way that worked without being too shocking overall with such a sensitive subject. Rape is something that needs to be talked about and understood in every culture ... not kept hidden and taboo. As nikma said, this gave Sansa's character a much stronger journey because she had to overcome this terrible situation and find the inner strength to move on. I am glad they didn't have Sansa just attack Ramsay or something else stupid (some thought that's what she was going to use that corkscrew for lol) because it would not have been consistent with Sansa's true nature. She's not a killer like Arya, but she's clever and learned to work with what she had. I always remembered from the books that "A lady's armor is her courtesy" and that's exactly how they portrayed Sansa on the show. She had to use her wits and lady-like charm to get through the terrible situation she was trapped in. She came out a stronger person for it.
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Posts: 2,465
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2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 3 Time Nominee
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Sept 24, 2019 3:37:33 GMT -5
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sercreighton
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Jun 28, 2016 17:04:35 GMT -5
June 2016
sercreighton
3 Time Nominee
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 17, 2018 11:21:53 GMT -5
I don't know if there is such a thing as tasteful rape, I think when D&D did it, it was about the reality of it, and yeah Martin was way more disturbing and graphic, but not visual, which is usually more impactful. No, that was probably not the best word to use. I think I meant it was respectful of the topic and of the actors too because that's a difficult one to do, especially as you said when the actress is young like Sophie and everyone has watched her grow up on the show. I felt like the writers should have been praised for this adaptation instead of criticized. They managed to take material from the book that was horrific and adapt it to the show in a way that worked without being too shocking overall with such a sensitive subject. Rape is something that needs to be talked about and understood in every culture ... not kept hidden and taboo. As nikma said, this gave Sansa's character a much stronger journey because she had to overcome this terrible situation and find the inner strength to move on. I am glad they didn't have Sansa just attack Ramsay or something else stupid (some thought that's what she was going to use that corkscrew for lol) because it would not have been consistent with Sansa's true nature. She's not a killer like Arya, but she's clever and learned to work with what she had. I always remembered from the books that "A lady's armor is her courtesy" and that's exactly how they portrayed Sansa on the show. She had to use her wits and lady-like charm to get through the terrible situation she was trapped in. She came out a stronger person for it. It's always hard to say something good about something bad. I think critics reacted more the loudest group of fans at the time. I don't recall a ton of fans complaining about what happened to Theon, some did but not like this, do complain about the Nun? No that's okay she was mean to Cersei, the most violently unstable person in the series. Same critics who hated that scene probably loved Joff, and binge watch Dexter, and can't wait to talk about the brilliance of the latest Tarantino film. I have seen much more graphic scenes in highly acclaimed movies. Foster won an Oscar didn't she? The complaints felt like bandwagon complaining to me. Everything has a trend these days. Stab a pregnant woman and everyone makes a reaction video of it for people to laugh at. As humans our hypocrisy knows no bounds. It's a harsh scene, that matches the brutality and reality of the world it takes place in without being visually graphic. For some this show is like bondage,they know it's going to hurt, they swear never again, but it's to late they are addicted and always crave more. Only problem is there is no safe word. But you can change the channel, funny how few of them do.
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