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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 17, 2018 23:19:17 GMT -5
Dorne was a failed "revenge is bad for you" plot. They should've done LSH instead, which explores the same theme but much more memorably imo. It would have also had several added advantages...
-A great arc for Jaime in seasons 5 and 6. He could still return to KL in s7 and have scenes with Cersei if needed. -An actual arc for Brienne. So far in the show her loyalties or her sense of honor have not been tested whatsoever. -Great acting all around (more Menzies, Bradley, Kaye, etc)... you can also keep Beric alive even with LSH, so more Dormer too. -A proper Red Wedding 2.0 and not an "Arya cuts Walder's throat in 3 seconds" scene. -Arya could find out about her mother which would probably have an enormous impact on her character development.
I am guessing LSH would die around the end of season 6 so seasons 7 and 8 would look exactly the same. But the middle part would be stronger for a lot of characters and themes.
I think we could also have had a much stronger Oldtown plot if Sam had arrived there in early season 6. The maesters' role is intriguing to say the least.
I am glad they cut fAegon and Victarion since they seem to add absolutely nothing.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 18, 2018 0:14:16 GMT -5
I think we could also have had a much stronger Oldtown plot if Sam had arrived there in early season 6. The maesters' role is intriguing to say the least. I'd agree with that and Sam's arc in Oldtown could have been expanded if his scenes in S6 were shuffled around. 601 had room for a couple more minutes of screentime so that could have included Sam and Gilly on the ship. The Horn Hill part is difficult to place because it works better in one episode alone. I suppose it could have been in 603. With that removed from 606, that leaves room for Sam arriving in Oldtown as well as exploring more of what occurs at the Citadel. 607 was another shorter episode so there could have been some more Oldtown there. And then they probably could have one more scene in the finale, whether it's something important Sam discovers about how to defeat the white walkers or the deleted scene from S7 with Gilly reading "Legends of the Long Night" and discussing Craster's sons with Sam.
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Post by nikma on Apr 18, 2018 4:16:01 GMT -5
But they can't expand Oldtown, since they don't know what to do with it, because GRRM himself doesn't know. It's clear that he gave them very little. Sam will use those books that he brought to discover something in S8, but that's it. And they can't have that in S6 or S7, because it would spoil the ending.
It's the same with LSH. LSH killing Walder Frey is just a theory. It works much better if Arya does that, since she was there for the RW. If Arya doesn't kill him in the books what she will do at all? Her character would be pointless. After 5 books she didn't affect the main plot in any meaningful way. She has to do something big, to kill someone big.
Bringing Cat back is a huge move, since RW was such an inconic event. To do that just to develop secondary character like Brienne and to do tired message "revenge is bad" (who would have thought lol) would be waste of time IMO. If you do something to in a way undo the biggest twist in your story, you have to do it for a good reason. And there is no evidence that GRRM has any idea what to do with her, since she did nothing in two massive books.
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Post by Envie on Apr 18, 2018 7:15:37 GMT -5
But they can't expand Oldtown, since they don't know what to do with it, because GRRM himself doesn't know. It's clear that he gave them very little. Sam will use those books that he brought to discover something in S8, but that's it. And they can't have that in S6 or S7, because it would spoil the ending. It's the same with LSH. LSH killing Walder Frey is just a theory. It works much better if Arya does that, since she was there for the RW. If Arya doesn't kill him in the books what she will do at all? Her character would be pointless. After 5 books she didn't affect the main plot in any meaningful way. She has to do something big, to kill someone big. Well on the show, so far her 'big' move that may be the same as in the book is possibly Littlefinger. I can't think of a better plot twist than that infamous catspaw dagger ending up being what does him in, so she's got that going for her even if LSH does end up being the one to kill Walder Frey in the books. Still, I think Arya has some big ending role to play that will be expanded on a lot more in the books (I hope) but may end up being compressed into the final season as it seems quite a few of the main character's 'big' endings will be. I do agree with the Oldtown comments though and felt like it was an odd set of chapters in the books that must have been leading somewhere important for Sam's ending. But when GRRM started adding other odd characters into the mix, it felt a bit unfocused and the show writers were likely trying to find ways to trim out most of that clutter and get to the point, which likely was all the information Sam's learning from the books/scrolls to aid in both Jon's heritage and the big ending.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 18, 2018 7:35:01 GMT -5
"Sam will use those books that he brought to discover something in S8, but that's it. And they can't have that in S6 or S7, because it would spoil the ending." Sure, though he could have gotten those books literally anywhere. Castle Black had a library nobody used. I suppose the specific document about Rhaegar getting a divorce had to come from the south, but still... "It's the same with LSH. LSH killing Walder Frey is just a theory. It works much better if Arya does that, since she was there for the RW." Arya killing Walder Frey has no moral complexity to it. The scene is cathartic and that's it (and it's not THAT cathartic, because it comes out of nowhere). I imagine if LSH ever got to massacre the Freys, she'd do it in a way that would horrify us. Make us question the act itself. "If Arya doesn't kill him in the books what she will do at all? Her character would be pointless." I doubt the point of Arya's character is to be a killing machine. "Bringing Cat back is a huge move, since RW was such an inconic event. To do that just to develop secondary character like Brienne and to do tired message "revenge is bad" (who would have thought lol) would be waste of time IMO." Well, they were clearly interested in this theme anyway... that's how Dorne was born. So they were going to do it one way or another. Better to do it with established characters we care about imo. Ellaria, Sand Snakes, Areo, Doran, Trystane etc. are a lot more minor than Brienne.
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Post by nikma on Apr 18, 2018 8:37:49 GMT -5
Arya killing Walder Frey has no moral complexity to it. The scene is cathartic and that's it (and it's not THAT cathartic, because it comes out of nowhere). I imagine if LSH ever got to massacre the Freys, she'd do it in a way that would horrify us. Make us question the act itself. "If Arya doesn't kill him in the books what she will do at all? Her character would be pointless." I doubt the point of Arya's character is to be a killing machine. "Bringing Cat back is a huge move, since RW was such an inconic event. To do that just to develop secondary character like Brienne and to do tired message "revenge is bad" (who would have thought lol) would be waste of time IMO." Well, they were clearly interested in this theme anyway... that's how Dorne was born. So they were going to do it one way or another. Better to do it with established characters we care about imo. Ellaria, Sand Snakes, Areo, Doran, Trystane etc. are a lot more minor than Brienne. Well, I don't think that there is any more moral complexity in LSH killing the Freys. She is already dead. Arya is a character we care about and she is doing something horrifc. It should terrify us. And she was terrifying in S7 at moments. I don't think that the point of Arya's character is to be a killing machine, but she maybe even killed more people in the first 5 books that she did in the first 5 seasons. She even killed people who did nothing wrong to her, like killing Thin Man in the books. My point is that she has to do something important in order to justify her existence in the story. So far it seems that GRRM created her just for world building. It was better to do it with Ellaria than with LSH IMO, because if you are going to reverse the biggest plot twist in your story, you need an even better one after that, and there is no evidence that GRRM has idea what to do with LSH, since he did nothing in the last two very large books. Ruining RW just so you could maybe further develop Brienne would be a wrong move on D&D's part IMO, and I'm glad they didn't do it. It would be like bringing Ned Stark back to develop Gendry. I don't say that a story where Brienne's sense of honor would have been tested wouldn't be great, but you don't need to ruin RW for that. There are better ways to to that. D&D treat her like a secondary character, which she is, and they don't think that she need her own storyline or arc. And since her chapters were very controversial in the books, maybe that decision was for the best.
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Post by Basil on Apr 18, 2018 9:03:24 GMT -5
If you think that Catelyn's horryfing existence as a half rotten creature of grief and vengeance somehow takes away from the tragedy of the Red Wedding, I honestly don't know what to say to you. To me, it makes the whole thing infinitely more devastating and gut wrenching.
Personally, I think the show jumped the shark hard with that whole Arya killing Walder Frey business. Not only did it feel like an afterthought, they also decided to portray the mass murder of an entire family as something super badass and awesome, for the audience to go 'slay gurl', without ever even remotely questioning the morality of it all. I honestly don't think they could have missed the point of Lady Stoneheart harder if they had tried.
And also ... calling a character like Arya pointless if she doesn't achieve some major goal or whatever is such a weird argument to me, man. Like, even if Arya doesn't end up killing Walder Frey in the books (and I highly doubt that she will), so what? How exactly does this affect or devalue her entire storyline up to this point. Every step of the journey is just as important as the ending. It's her personal struggles, her growth as a person, her relationship with other characters, what Arya's arc is about, not the question, "wooh, I wonder who she's gonna kill next?".
No, she doesn't.
No, it's not.
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Post by nikma on Apr 18, 2018 10:07:26 GMT -5
If you think that Catelyn's horryfing existence as a half rotten creature of grief and vengeance somehow takes away from the tragedy of the Red Wedding, I honestly don't know what to say to you. Ofc, it takes away. Part of the tragedy of the RW is finality of it. It's the end. She fails, she has lost. That's the tragedy. Giving her a chance to kill Walder Frey, no matter what form she has, just ruins everything. It would be like zombie Ned killing Joffrey. It's just too much. And to have her as the leader of BwB never made much sense to me. Why are they following her?
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 19, 2018 18:15:50 GMT -5
But they can't expand Oldtown, since they don't know what to do with it, because GRRM himself doesn't know. It's clear that he gave them very little. Sam will use those books that he brought to discover something in S8, but that's it. And they can't have that in S6 or S7, because it would spoil the ending. It's the same with LSH. LSH killing Walder Frey is just a theory. It works much better if Arya does that, since she was there for the RW. If Arya doesn't kill him in the books what she will do at all? Her character would be pointless. After 5 books she didn't affect the main plot in any meaningful way. She has to do something big, to kill someone big. Bringing Cat back is a huge move, since RW was such an inconic event. To do that just to develop secondary character like Brienne and to do tired message "revenge is bad" (who would have thought lol) would be waste of time IMO. If you do something to in a way undo the biggest twist in your story, you have to do it for a good reason. And there is no evidence that GRRM has any idea what to do with her, since she did nothing in two massive books. Well I would say that Oldtown is actually pretty well laid out and rather easy to figure out. Development for old town begins in book one and the development and plot are laid down in subsequent books, and extended universe books. I'll touch on these in a minute. As for LSH, I think LSH shows us not only is magic getting stronger but it touches on multiple themes that Martin likes to incorporate. One is the dead don't come back the same, the show really does not show us this with Jon in fact Jon may be even better than before. Kit mentioned that darkness but we don't really see it. Two horror Martin loves horror, and as the books progress the darkness and the horror begin to take hold. Not just with LSH, but book Bloodraven isn't some old man in a tree, he is terrifying, the children's cave is dark, twisted and creepy, filled the bones of the dead. And of course the Zombie army. Arya also is connected to the horror, a servant of death. On the show the Frey massacre hardly had fans going oh terrifying, but rather they tended to cheer the death of the Freys, there is nothing scary about it. However if you read the Mercy chapter, it's pretty twisted. LSH leads the Brotherhood as she essentially replaces Beric who gives up his life for her. Not all the Brotherhood remain with her. But those that do raise their resistance game to one of vengence. Her story is aimed at coming back to Jaime, they had a pact. Okay back Oldtown, you ever here that saying "any port in a storm?" That's Oldtown a becon for intersecting plot lines. Book one introduces us to Sam who will be a center piece for Oldtown. House Hightower The Measters the Hightower. The Citadel. Measters are big part of the books and play key roles for many sub plots and characters. Aemon Targaryen. Dany. Mirri mentions her learning from a Maester, Marwyn. The Iron Born Heart Trees The three eyed Raven. Arya and Bran Faceless Men Seem kind of spread out? Book 2 Qarth, keep following. Very important to the Oldtown plot, in fact it draws a bit of a parallel to it. The Warlocks The Captain of the Cinnamon Wind. Shade of the evening, and Shade trees an inversion of the heart tree but with the same effects. Quaithe Urrathon the Night Walker. The glass candles. House Harlaw Book 3 Balon is killed by a Facless man and Euron Returns Book 4, Oldtown prologue, Faceless man, Dany, a key, the glass candles are burning, Marwyn. Euron is elected King of the Iron Islands Euron sends Vic on a mission with a magic horn Dragon binder. Euron begins raiding, even going to far as to attack Oldtown Sam and Aemon are sent to Oldtown Along the away Sam meets Arya and Aemon dies. Sam meets the Captain of the Cinnamon wind and they sail for old town. I'll finish up in a follow up post.
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 19, 2018 18:46:10 GMT -5
Okay so it's book for that we really see plot lines coming together.
Oldtown prolouge, Facless man, Sam and Arya, Sam and the Cinamon wind. Rodrick is reading a book by Marwyn The name Goodbrother, we first here of them in book 2 along with Urrathon the Nightwalker, and there would seem no connection. But in book 4 we see Euron and Rodrick meeting with them.
So Rodrick gives us a intersection with Marwyn who we are about to meet and the Goodbrothers.
In book 5 the final clue drops, Rodrick tells Asha to read a book about? Urrathon the Goodbrother. Last king of the Iron Islands to have a Kingsmoot overturned. Urrathon is only used one other time in book 2 Urrathon the Night Walker, keeper of the glass candles. The sigil for House Goodbrother is identical to Dragonbinder.
The same Facelessman that kills Balon may be at the Citadel? Euron is raiding the coast there. What's he want, the guy that has the Warlocks, shade of the evening, from Qarth home of Urrathon and the glass candles? A place where this faceless man has appeared? Euron who is compared to Urrathon Goodbrother, by Rodrick who was reading a book by Marwyn who has a glass candle? A guy that is totally into using visions? What does he want? He wants the Valyrian glass candles, to go with his Valyrian armor, and the Valyrian Princess he wants to claim using his Valyrian horn that looks just like the sigil for house Goodbrother.
No Martin left a ton of clues, and it's about the glass candles, which the show skipped along with many other magical elements. Euron is introduced very late in the show series as opposed to the books, and Oldtown and the Facless man and the glass candles all got skipped, along with Quaithe and many other things, but we got a Dorne sub plot that literally went nowhere.
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Post by nikma on Apr 19, 2018 19:17:07 GMT -5
So what's the point of all of that that with Oldtown? What should have D&D do with all that? It's bunch of nothing really. Typical Martin's mistery box without answers to anything, just hints, hints, hints...
And again, with LSH that's why D&D said themes are for elementary school. "dead don't come back the same", "revenge is bad",.. yay. But what is the purpose of all that if the plot is not compelling? I mean, as I said he could have brought Ned Stark back to kill Joffrey to show how revenge is bad and how death changes everything. But he didn't want to ruin his second best plot twist. So he ruined the best one.
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Post by nikma on Apr 19, 2018 19:24:10 GMT -5
And one thing that I'm really against is this almost nihilistic approach to this story, where we, as fans, shouldn't feel good about anything. If good guys lose we should feel bad about it. Which makes sense. If the bad guys lose, we should again feel bad about it?! So when Walder Frey kills the Starks we should be terrified. But when he dies we should be terrified again? But where is cathartic moment? Is there any point in story where we should feel happy? Everything need to feel horrible?
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 19, 2018 20:09:28 GMT -5
So what's the point of all of that that with Oldtown? What should have D&D do with all that? It's bunch of nothing really. Typical Martin's mistery box without answers to anything, just hints, hints, hints... It's worldbuilding and progressive storytelling, but I think because Oldtown was introduced closer to the end game in the show, it had to be more about what's important for that. A lot of the hints and mysteries were dropped so that Sam would only find valuable info, which works better for the screen. In the books, it's much easier to flesh this out. Also, would it be intriguing enough and hold enough dramatic weight for the general audience, I'm not sure, maybe fans would just want them to get to the point instead of spending a great amount of time in the Citadel. But there were a number of ways they could have expanded Oldtown imo, not only with everything sercreighton mentioned, but also it's one of the cities that's the furthest south, a place for sanctuary once the white walkers invade. A conflict with the maesters, how they feel about dragons, the Faceless Men, even Euron is expected to raid Oldtown for the dragonhorn, but this was never introduced. And I don't disagree that it's a lot of hints, there's more or less a great deal of frustration there because we want the plot to move forward. I think D&D inserted key elements that were needed here, but it still only felt like a glimpse compared to other locations we've seen.
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Post by Basil on Apr 20, 2018 2:14:24 GMT -5
And one thing that I'm really against is this almost nihilistic approach to this story, where we, as fans, shouldn't feel good about anything. If good guys lose we should feel bad about it. Which makes sense. If the bad guys lose, we should again feel bad about it?! So when Walder Frey kills the Starks we should be terrified. But when he dies we should be terrified again? But where is cathartic moment? Is there any point in story where we should feel happy? Everything need to feel horrible? Catharsis happened when the Starks reclaimed Winterfell, when they reunited after so many years of being apart, when Dany finally reached Westeros, etc. But the (often times) brutally depicted murder of a single character, no matter how horrible they were, is not really meant to make you feel good or give you catharsis. On the contrary, often times it aims to make you feel conflicted and perhaps question your own feelings and your own desire for vengeance. That's why when even Joff died, Martin decided to portray that in a pretty fucked up way, for us to realize that no matter how much we all hated Joffrey, at the end of the day, he was still just a kid. A really messed up kid, but a kid nonetheless. It's hard to experience catharsis in a moment like that, when you see them suffer and desperately gasp for air. That's not a happy moment for anyone. Yes, those characters were horrible people and they probably had it coming, but killing them doesn't bring back the characters that we love, it doesn't redeem all of the bad stuff that has happened. It's just more killing and tragedy, and there is very little catharsis that can be drawn from that. As for the question whether or not something makes for a compelling storyline, there is no universal answer to that. For me personally, Stoneheart is among the most effective and heart wrenching pieces of storytelling Martin has ever done ... but that's not something you can really argue about. I will however argue that Catelyn's resurrection does in no way diminish the impact of the Red Wedding. On the contrary, Stoneheart is the personification of the horrors of the Red Wedding, it's the most powerful piece of visual and psychological horror in this entire series. And seriously, Ned coming back from the dead to kill Joffrey is a pretty shit hypothetical and doesn't apply at all as a counter argument here. Cat's resurrection makes perfect sense within the context of the story, it was foreshadowed since the very beginning and it carries huge thematical weight and plot significance. You can argue if you wanna that it makes the story worse for you and that you don't like it, but that's about it. Also ... you taking a dig at Martin as an author in like every one of your posts is getting really kind of exhausting, dude.
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Post by nikma on Apr 20, 2018 5:06:43 GMT -5
That's why when even Joff died, Martin decided to portray that in a pretty fucked up way, for us to realize that no matter how much we all hated Joffrey, at the end of the day, he was still just a kid And did anyone feel sorry for Joffrey? I know what intetion from Martin was, but it didn't work. Joffrey was a monster, no one felt sorry for what happened to him. Martin did it much better with Theon, where he did "do you really think this is what you wanted?" point very good. And fans of both the books and the show did experience catharsis when Joffrey died. General opinion in both mediums is that he should have suffered more. Cat's resurrection makes perfect sense within the context of the story, it was foreshadowed since the very beginning There was a way to foreshadow Ned's resurrection as well. But I will argue that the story doesn't need the personification of the horrors of the Red Wedding, or personification of any other tragedy. You can say that I take a dig at Martin as an author often, but he is the reason why we are having this conversation in the first place. Is LSH pointless, or not, does he know what he is doing with her and the rest of the story,... It's hard to know, because the story is not finished. Everyone of us could be both right and wrong. If the story was over, if we saw what he is really going to do with LSH, Dorne, Oldtown, all these minor storylines, maybe I would say that you were right. But my opinion is that the story is not finished for that precise reason, because he doesn't know what to do. For me the fact that he didin't finish the story is a evidence that he doesn't have a clear idea. When he had claer vision, with the first 3 books, everything seemed easy, now he is struggling. You can think I'm wrong, but we will never know.
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