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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 3:55:17 GMT -5
I agree with both of you on here. Looking back at it now, you can say that "wow looking back these scenes were foreshadowing Arya killing the NK, even if they weren't supposed to at the moment". And that's fine, that's good.
But I really dislike how some people go on saying "wow, look! The clues were always there". No, they weren't. Because they weren't clues THEN. They are now, though.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 4:19:07 GMT -5
I don't know how many of you have tried writing a novel or screenplay. I imagine some of you have since the fandom can attract aspiring writers. Anyway, I am one of those and no matter how much I planned my stories ahead, there were always things that developed quite differently from what I initially intended them to. A lot of writing decisions are made subconsciously and only later can I see the whole picture. I often implement clues to things that I don't even know were there to begin with. And yes, I still consider them to be clues even if I was not aware of them before.
Another important lesson that I learnt from literature class is that the text has to speak for itself. Whatever the writer intended is absolutely irrelevant for the reader's analysis/reception of said text. A text (or movie or show) has a life of its own. If a particular twist makes sense within the context of a story, then that's all a reader can ask for. You are watching Game of Thrones and trying to make sense of it. You are not, however, psychoanalysing D&D or GRRM. Students often ask: "what did the author want to say?". This question will lead you nowhere. It's all in the text or nowhere at all.
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Post by atargbyanothername on May 2, 2019 4:20:31 GMT -5
This fandom is one of the worst ive encountered for dressing up meaningless nothings as “foreshadowing” and “symbolism.” Moreso in the books where people take a meaningless collection of quotes and dress it up as “foreshadowing” to support their baseless speculation. E.g. “Jon is wearing a black cloak, his colour is black, Drogon is also black. Jon joining the Night Watch and wearing a black cloak is therefore clearly foreshadowing of him wresting control from Daenerys and riding Drogon.” I wish that was made up
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Post by nikma on May 2, 2019 4:35:01 GMT -5
No show writer in history of television planned every detail of S8 while they were working on S1.
They never even knew that show will have 8 seasons. They didn't even know that the show will end as a show. D&D said they thought they will need 3 movies to end the story because they thought it would be impossible to do things they did with dragons and WW and so on.
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Post by freypies on May 2, 2019 4:58:44 GMT -5
Obviously not everything was planned. I was just trying to point out things that, in hindsight, can be related to it making narrative sense that it is Arya who kills the Night King, as many I've seen online firmly believe that it should have been the ending of Jon's arc.
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Post by nikma on May 2, 2019 5:07:54 GMT -5
Maybe D&D are too honest for their own good. Lol. Maybe they should've act like Rowling and said that they knew about this since 2007.
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Post by motherofmountains on May 2, 2019 5:21:44 GMT -5
Maybe D&D are too honest for their own good. Lol. Maybe they should've act like Rowling and said that they knew about this since 2007. I don't know why they even thought about having to hit the NK in the spot where the dragonglass blade was originally inserted. Where did that come from? It's valerian steel, it kills white walkers, the NK is a white walker, ergo valerian steel kills the NK. That's all I needed to know. Talk about making life complicated for yourself.
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Post by katjushka on May 2, 2019 6:55:39 GMT -5
About Arya and all those hints along the way.. Remember that in the books there is no NK for anyone to kill so Arya could very well end up having a similar path to killing one or more WW's. Benioff and Weiss did not say that they came up with the idea of Arya killing a WW three years ago, just that she will be the one to kill off this one particular WW.
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 2, 2019 7:29:11 GMT -5
I agree with both of you on here. Looking back at it now, you can say that "wow looking back these scenes were foreshadowing Arya killing the NK, even if they weren't supposed to at the moment". And that's fine, that's good. But I really dislike how some people go on saying "wow, look! The clues were always there". No, they weren't. Because they weren't clues THEN. They are now, though. yeah they work in hindsight, but we think nothing of it at the time. I feel like that makes it more fun. Like it was right in front of us and we didn’t know.
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Post by King Tommen on May 2, 2019 8:08:38 GMT -5
D&D have to be pretty pumped that they included "shut blue eyes" as part of Melisandre's prophecy to Arya back in S3 because they obviously didn't know at that point about Arya killing the NK. Once they decided to go that way, being able to call that line back is pretty key to having the audience realize Mel "knew" way back then. Sometimes, the screenwriting gives you some gifts that you get to use years later...
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 8:18:40 GMT -5
Wait a minute. I just realized that back in 2015 (?) one of the costume designersfor the show said that "the WW have started wearing armour now because one of them was killed with dragonglass" or something to those lines. Why would they wear armour if it's useless Against both valyrian steel and the dragonglass? I mean, it's likely that they just retconned the WW appearance (and the one with black armour is much better anyway) but the reasoning behind it seems silly when the armour doesn't even protect them.
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Post by Envie on May 2, 2019 8:58:26 GMT -5
Wait a minute. I just realized that back in 2015 (?) one of the costume designersfor the show said that "the WW have started wearing armour now because one of them was killed with dragonglass" or something to those lines. Why would they wear armour if it's useless Against both valyrian steel and the dragonglass? I mean, it's likely that they just retconned the WW appearance (and the one with black armour is much better anyway) but the reasoning behind it seems silly when the armour doesn't even protect them. I was thinking about the armor thing too and talked it over with my friend. We recalled that the White Walkers seemed to start wearing armor after Sam killed the first one that tried to come for Gilly's baby at the hut they stayed in north of the wall. That one was killed by dragonglass. They may not, however, have accounted for Valyrian steel, which when we saw Jon Snow kill one with Longclaw at Hardhome, went right through his armor and cut him right in half/shards of ice. We can also remember the shocked look on the White Walker's face at the moment their swords clashed and Jon's didn't shatter. Clearly the White Walkers didn't know about Valyrian Steel. Further support for their fear of Valyrian steel, once they realized their armor was useless against it, was after Hardhome. All of them, including The Night King, kept a respectable distance from Jon Snow at the frozen lake battle. They seemed to understand he was a threat because of the type of sword he had. I think this is probably why The Night King didn't want to square off and fight Jon Snow one-on-one at Winterfell either. He knew Jon's sword could destroy him so he avoided a confrontation and raised more undead to block Jon's progress towards him. With Arya's surprise attack, and she drops the dagger - they do it in slow motion so that you can see that split-second moment of recognition on the Night King's face when he realized that dagger was valyrian steel. Not something he could have ever anticipated. It was a brilliant moment right there that's missed because of the surprise and shock from the audience that it's Arya who does the deed. The Night King was more shocked by the fact this 'little girl' had a valyrian steel dagger. He was expecting another easy kill like he just did with Theon.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 2, 2019 9:54:51 GMT -5
D&D have to be pretty pumped that they included "shut blue eyes" as part of Melisandre's prophecy to Arya back in S3 because they obviously didn't know at that point about Arya killing the NK. Once they decided to go that way, being able to call that line back is pretty key to having the audience realize Mel "knew" way back then. Sometimes, the screenwriting gives you some gifts that you get to use years later... It's interesting that they included that foreshadowing in the first place, though. I mean, at the very least they knew that Mel and Arya were going to meet up again in the final battle. It wasn't just the eyes part, the "we will meet again" always sounded important.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 2, 2019 10:09:12 GMT -5
I have to say, Mel's death struck me as a lot sadder on rewatch. Her walking towards the light, but never quite reaching it. The way she falls. It's perfect, but pretty damn heartbreaking. As she told Davos way back in season 2, she spent her life in the shadows. Dying in an attempt to reach the light, but never quite getting there, is the perfect ending for her. And also a reflection of her character. And based on Carice's portrayal of her post-season 5, I don't think she ever found happiness, or even true peace of mind. (Unlike fellow former slave Grey Worm: I loved their little interaction in this episode). I think she was riddled with doubt until the end, especially after Jon's revelation that there's nothing waiting after death. All of this, plus a sort of relief, must be on her mind as she walks off into the snow. And of course, the fact that she dies in the snow (the very opposite of her motto: Death by fire is the purest death) is a great touch, intentional or not. Thanks for breaking my heart Carice ...
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Post by izzue on May 2, 2019 10:14:57 GMT -5
D&D have to be pretty pumped that they included "shut blue eyes" as part of Melisandre's prophecy to Arya back in S3 because they obviously didn't know at that point about Arya killing the NK. Once they decided to go that way, being able to call that line back is pretty key to having the audience realize Mel "knew" way back then. Sometimes, the screenwriting gives you some gifts that you get to use years later... It's interesting that they included that foreshadowing in the first place, though. I mean, at the very least they knew that Mel and Arya were going to meet up again in the final battle. It wasn't just the eyes part, the "we will meet again" always sounded important. I may be oversimplifying, but isn't it possible the "and blue eyes" was included in Mel's speech to Arya back in S3 simply because people, just people in general, have not only brown and green eyes, but blue eyes as well (ref. Tormund). If that were the case, it was something they could go back to and lift out the 'and blue eyes' later on when they realized it was useful. ... Or, of course, they could have planned it all along, but I guess my point is that it doesn't really matter, it could have come about either way. ETA: I definitely agree about the 'we will meet again part' -- that was significant and loaded with portent from the very beginning, I think.
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