Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 4, 2019 20:36:00 GMT -5
After Kit gave that interview to EW, it's been on my mind off and on. What exactly does he mean by twisted and uncomfortable? And is he referring to Shakespeare's themes as a concept or literally referring to the characteristic of Shakespearian dialogue? After talking to my partner on this extensively today in anticipation of tomorrow's episode (and our newly revised predictions since we were completely wrong about 803!), he believes Kit meant it from an actor's perspective, especially since Kit has himself performed in plays recently. Here's that quote again: In analyzing what Kit's remark may reveal, the first thing we should recall is that GRRM has always said this story is most historically similar to The War of The Roses. Well who wrote something like 8 plays all about that historic period? Shakespeare. From Richard II, to the King Henry series, we can find many references to some of the common themes in GoT regarding rulership, conquest, heirs, political betrayal and many others. But I am starting to believe in this case, Kit was definitely referring to one thing in particular from the Shakespearian War of Roses plays: royal drama. Not tragedy - though GoT does have a lot of that and we expect it. What is the main royal drama? What make a king (or queen) a king? Who has the 'right' to rule? The person who's butt is on the Iron Throne, or the person who takes it from them? That's what we suspect, after taking Kit's words "twisted" and "uncomfortable" into account. He's probably talking from internal reference, not external. As Jon/Aegon, he now has to face his destiny. What will he do with that destiny and how does it affect his relationship with Daenerys? Suddenly, Daenerys' belief, her whole life, that she's the last rightful heir to the throne is twisted into denial and disbelief. She is now the one having an existential crisis, not Jon. Jon seems to have fully embraced his Targaryen heritage and didn't hesitate at all when he told Dany his real name and he didn't hesitate to ride Rhaegal into battle even if it wasn't where he was most comfortable fighting. He understands what his Targaryen side means and is accepting it now. This is going to be shocking to others but he's already there. But just because Jon's the most 'eligible' Targaryen does not mean he has the 'right' to claim the Iron Throne. We have had this hammered over our heads throughout the entire series. Robert Baratheon took the throne by force. Cersei Lannister took it by exerting political power and eliminating her enemies one by one (and both her sons dying in the process). Daenerys intends to take it back by conquest and force as Robert took it from her Father. Jon is now being thrown into the middle of all that, the reluctant heir. Here's a great article we found that goes into great detail about how Game of Thrones is thematically similar to a lot of Shakespeare's themes of power, rulership and legitimacy: (I'd love to hear your feedback on this article if you have time to read it) themillions.com/2017/07/shakespearean-echoes-game-thrones-history-play.htmlHere's a particularly good piece that supports my theory about Kit's quote and how that fits into GoT in parallel to Shakespeare: In summary, I think episode 804 is going to draw this question to a head and that's the uncomfortable bit Kit was referring to from Jon's POV. I'm really looking forward to this aftermath episode ... what do you think?
|
|
mattpeto
Rhaegal
@mattpeto
Posts: 429
Likes: 705
inherit
37
0
Apr 19, 2024 18:24:06 GMT -5
705
mattpeto
429
Jun 30, 2016 15:37:43 GMT -5
June 2016
mattpeto
|
Post by mattpeto on May 4, 2019 20:50:24 GMT -5
I’m very curious on the Northerns’s perspective now. The Great War is over and I would imagine that Jon is conflicted about what’s next. Nobody respects Cersei but she’s a little threat to Winterfell, if we are honest.
I think the Shakespearion comment may have to do with a pregnant Daenerys. She is so hungry for the throne nothing will stop her resolve. This will piss Jon off.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 4, 2019 20:55:39 GMT -5
I think the Shakespearion comment may have to do with a pregnant Daenerys. She is so hungry for the throne nothing will stop her resolve. This will piss Jon off. The pregnancy wildcard is definitely there and who knows which way it could go if true. Obviously, the best way to resolve all of this is for them to marry, which I'm quite sure Tyrion, Varys and Davos will all urge them to do ASAP. That was pointed out, particularly, when the three of them talked from atop the Winterfell walls and looking down at the couple-in-question back in 801. Foreshadowing there for sure.
|
|
izzue
Moondancer
@izzue
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 1,003
inherit
25
0
Mar 22, 2024 2:50:50 GMT -5
1,003
izzue
1,546
Jun 23, 2016 9:13:38 GMT -5
June 2016
izzue
|
Post by izzue on May 4, 2019 20:59:22 GMT -5
I like this. I've been wondering when other people will find out who Jon really is and what their reaction will be. There's 'way too much other stuff that will be going on in 8.05, and then of course 8.06 is the finale (which I still can't believe). So it's gotta come up tomorrow night.
It also touches on that conversation Tyrion tried to have with Dany last season, to consider the necessity of having or designating an heir, which she dismissed until she'd won the IT.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 4, 2019 21:03:19 GMT -5
I've been wondering when other people will find out who Jon really is and what their reaction will be. Well this also plays into the 'uncomfortable' part Kit said too if we speculate, like many Shakespeare plays, we the audience are in the know about something along with Jon/Dany while the rest of the characters are not ... until of course that's exposed. And you're right, tomorrow is when this has to happen for the plot to move along as swiftly as it needs to go. I think it will be quite uncomfortable for Jon, for sure, and probably for Daenerys as well.
|
|
izzue
Moondancer
@izzue
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 1,003
inherit
25
0
Mar 22, 2024 2:50:50 GMT -5
1,003
izzue
1,546
Jun 23, 2016 9:13:38 GMT -5
June 2016
izzue
|
Post by izzue on May 4, 2019 21:16:47 GMT -5
You said "uncomfortable for Jon" -- that makes perfect sense. I like the way he's [pretty] quickly embraced who he really is, unapologetically. But the implications of that - specifically in light of the IT - will be very uncomfortable. From that last scene in 8.02 when he told Dany, he opened his mouth to reply when she said, "You'll have claim [or "a" claim, I can't remember which] and turned away, but the horn blared then. It has to be that he was getting ready to say that he didn't intend to make a claim, right?
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 4, 2019 23:13:05 GMT -5
It has to be that he was getting ready to say that he didn't intend to make a claim, right? Well, whatever he was about to say, they left it awkwardly hanging between them and now that has to be addressed in tomorrow night's episode. Is he going to tell her he doesn't want the Iron Throne and then everything's ok between them? Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen as the preview seems to hint at high tension and drama. Jon's legitimacy is one thing - it means a lot to him. His right to claim the throne, not so much. Jon's done the mission he set out to do - defeat the Night King and army of the dead (thanks Arya!) and now he has to face what comes next. He's sworn to Daenerys already and I don't see him going back on that. I just have no idea how this gets unraveled between Daenerys, the northerners, and his Stark family. This is where the twisted tension Kit's talking about is going to kick into high gear. I sort of wonder if Bran doesn't just blurt it out in front of everyone - or Sam pulls a move similar to the one he did when he got Jon elected to Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That's definitely going to be awkward!
|
|
nox
Egg
Is it better to be satisfied or happy?
@nox
Posts: 12
Likes: 30
inherit
198
0
May 8, 2019 9:22:46 GMT -5
30
nox
Is it better to be satisfied or happy?
12
May 4, 2019 23:27:59 GMT -5
May 2019
nox
|
Post by nox on May 5, 2019 0:08:15 GMT -5
As an actor, I would think that KH would have an invested take on Shakespeare as that is studied from an actor's perspective with an acute appreciation of the tension that is being established, and how that tension leads to resolution which is really what drives the narrative.
I thought that was a pointed comment, but I don't think that it refers to a specific thing. I think it is more that we're about to go into a situation where three people have a claim on the throne. One because she's sitting on it, one because she's sought it as her birthright and now the unexpected and extremely unwelcome surprise claimant - who is generally liked but also has the legitimate claim to the succession of House T.
That begs so many questions. First, what makes D's claim to the throne legit? House T lost that claim and was believed legally eradicated. If that doesn't eliminate any current standing claim then nothing does. House T won the claim by force of arms. If they assert that having a claim upon it trumps any current sitting claimant, then doesn't house Baratheon have a more recent claim on the same terms? If not, then wouldn't the previous house have greater claim? Either way, Dany's claim was tenuous before, and now it's evaporated with the reveal of Jon's heritage.
House B's heir could be legitimatized, thereby challenging the opacity of Dany's claim.
Then there's Jon, who is actually the Heir Apparent, *if* the House T claim is considered the rightful claim but I don't know honestly if that's how it would land.
That's the lovely mess of Dramatic Regency we're thrust into - which is pure Shakespeare all the way. There are bits and pieces of everything from Macbeth to Henry VI and Richard III. The war of the roses Lancasters and the Yorks fighting their internecine wars under the shadow of the throne being an ear cuffingly close parallel to the Lannisters and the Starks.
I have to admit I was a little discouraged going into S8E4 after the huge and sudden ending. As Envie says, I had forseen and imagined a very different set of circumstances but I am warming up to the beautiful mess that is about to come.
Shakespearean regent drama indeed. A little more game of thrones and a little less zombie apocalypse would suit me right now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
122
0
Apr 23, 2024 22:49:43 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 23, 2024 22:49:43 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 5:19:12 GMT -5
After Kit gave that interview to EW, it's been on my mind off and on. What exactly does he mean by twisted and uncomfortable? And is he referring to Shakespeare's themes as a concept or literally referring to the characteristic of Shakespearian dialogue? After talking to my partner on this extensively today in anticipation of tomorrow's episode (and our newly revised predictions since we were completely wrong about 803!), he believes Kit meant it from an actor's perspective, especially since Kit has himself performed in plays recently. Here's that quote again: In analyzing what Kit's remark may reveal, the first thing we should recall is that GRRM has always said this story is most historically similar to The War of The Roses. Well who wrote something like 8 plays all about that historic period? Shakespeare. From Richard II, to the King Henry series, we can find many references to some of the common themes in GoT regarding rulership, conquest, heirs, political betrayal and many others. But I am starting to believe in this case, Kit was definitely referring to one thing in particular from the Shakespearian War of Roses plays: royal drama. Not tragedy - though GoT does have a lot of that and we expect it. What is the main royal drama? What make a king (or queen) a king? Who has the 'right' to rule? The person who's butt is on the Iron Throne, or the person who takes it from them? That's what we suspect, after taking Kit's words "twisted" and "uncomfortable" into account. He's probably talking from internal reference, not external. As Jon/Aegon, he now has to face his destiny. What will he do with that destiny and how does it affect his relationship with Daenerys? Suddenly, Daenerys' belief, her whole life, that she's the last rightful heir to the throne is twisted into denial and disbelief. She is now the one having an existential crisis, not Jon. Jon seems to have fully embraced his Targaryen heritage and didn't hesitate at all when he told Dany his real name and he didn't hesitate to ride Rhaegal into battle even if it wasn't where he was most comfortable fighting. He understands what his Targaryen side means and is accepting it now. This is going to be shocking to others but he's already there. But just because Jon's the most 'eligible' Targaryen does not mean he has the 'right' to claim the Iron Throne. We have had this hammered over our heads throughout the entire series. Robert Baratheon took the throne by force. Cersei Lannister took it by exerting political power and eliminating her enemies one by one (and both her sons dying in the process). Daenerys intends to take it back by conquest and force as Robert took it from her Father. Jon is now being thrown into the middle of all that, the reluctant heir. Here's a great article we found that goes into great detail about how Game of Thrones is thematically similar to a lot of Shakespeare's themes of power, rulership and legitimacy: (I'd love to hear your feedback on this article if you have time to read it) themillions.com/2017/07/shakespearean-echoes-game-thrones-history-play.htmlHere's a particularly good piece that supports my theory about Kit's quote and how that fits into GoT in parallel to Shakespeare: In summary, I think episode 804 is going to draw this question to a head and that's the uncomfortable bit Kit was referring to from Jon's POV. I'm really looking forward to this aftermath episode ... what do you think? And this is the problem. It's not supposed to be Dany's existential crisis but Jon's to a large degree. It's supposed to be a huge deal for his character who grew up to be a bastard, thinking Ned is his dad only to find out that's not the case. This is one of the few examples of how Weiss and Benioff do not fully understand some of their characters he is like just 'nah, I'm cool Targaryen' etc. Of course, he can embrace it at some point but there is a road to that as well. That's just dumbing down on the important aspect of his character and it's a secret about him that has been here since season/book 1. Whoever kills NK is irrelevant in comparison to this. It's not so much about the crisis for Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran or anyone else. They should react to it in their own way but Jon is the one that this is mostly concerning to. As for KH Shakesperian comment. It's bound to be partially about his heritage and how that affects his relationship with others, how that affects the whole Team Dany. I said it before that Jon will not use this claim as he already gave his word to Dany and would be ooc to pursue IT but others might want to use it such as Varys or Sansa to further their own goals. Varys is loyal to smallfolk and Sansa wants independence for the North. Northerners, as I mentioned in other thread seems to be with Dany and Sansa, might not fully be with her and try to exploit a way to get what she wants.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 5, 2019 9:03:18 GMT -5
That begs so many questions. First, what makes D's claim to the throne legit? House T lost that claim and was believed legally eradicated. If that doesn't eliminate any current standing claim then nothing does. House T won the claim by force of arms. If they assert that having a claim upon it trumps any current sitting claimant, then doesn't house Baratheon have a more recent claim on the same terms? If not, then wouldn't the previous house have greater claim? Either way, Dany's claim was tenuous before, and now it's evaporated with the reveal of Jon's heritage. House B's heir could be legitimatized, thereby challenging the opacity of Dany's claim. You know, I never even considered this possibility. I have long hoped for Gendry to return from his loooong rowing trip and somehow enter the game as a player, which they granted us in Season 7. Now I hope for him to survive the story and be legitimized as Lord Baratheon to revive that grand house as he's the last of his name. I never actually thought about the implications that could have as a throne contender! I don't see Gendry being the type to do that, despite being impulsively quick to react and a great fighter like his Dad. Would he want to push for conquering it for himself? Doubtful. Like Jon, he's more of a commoner's kind of leader. A man of simple ideals and a desire to go out and adventure and fight the good fight for life - which is why he was so eager to go with Jon north of the wall. But, he does have his Father's blood and you're right... if we're going to start discussing how the throne is claimed, he could be pointed out as a potential claimant. We have learned in GoT that whoever is strong enough to take the throne and hold it is the one with the claim. Robert broke the Targaryen dynasty. Cersei's children were bastards too with even less claim than Gendry since they had no Baratheon blood, but still both Joffrey and Tommen took the throne because of lies and popular belief that they were the rightful heirs. Now Cersei has it because there's no one left in the Baratheon line. It would be a really unique twist if Robert's trueblood son were to actually challenge her for it! But, back to Jon and Daenerys and the Targaryen half - we can only hope whatever uncomfortably twisted drama is in store for us tonight (as Kit worded it) plays out beautifully and makes sense. I'm sure we'll be debating it like crazy tomorrow! It's supposed to be a huge deal for his character who grew up to be a bastard, thinking Ned is his dad only to find out that's not the case. This is one of the few examples of how Weiss and Benioff do not fully understand some of their characters he is like just 'nah, I'm cool Targaryen' etc. Of course, he can embrace it at some point but there is a road to that as well. That's just dumbing down on the important aspect of his character and it's a secret about him that has been here since season/book 1. Well, for what it's worth, I do think D&D understand Jon's character as they have played him out beautifully for the past 7 seasons and Kit has portrayed him perfectly as well. Plus, we don't actually know, yet, if Jon's ok with this big reveal or if he's still in personal crisis over it. I think he is harboring a lot of anxiety about it that we haven't yet seen. If D&D are guilty of anything, it's that they have dragged this out for a long time since the end of Season 6 when we finally got the big R+L=J reveal. They dragged it out all through Season 7 (revealing that he's legitimate), and now in the final 6 episodes, it may feel a bit rushed for some of us. I know I really wanted to savor Jon's identity reveal and see how he personally worked through that - and perhaps we'll get some more of it in the final 4 hours ahead. That's probably the Shakespeare reference from Kit, as you say... how will Jon navigate this hot mess between his Stark family, the northerners, Daenerys, Cersei ... all of it? That's a lot for him to absorb and while his mind was solely on defeating the Night King... now that's done and he has to face the music of his song (of Ice and Fire!) ...
|
|
izzue
Moondancer
@izzue
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 1,003
inherit
25
0
Mar 22, 2024 2:50:50 GMT -5
1,003
izzue
1,546
Jun 23, 2016 9:13:38 GMT -5
June 2016
izzue
|
Post by izzue on May 5, 2019 10:09:51 GMT -5
That begs so many questions. First, what makes D's claim to the throne legit? House T lost that claim and was believed legally eradicated. If that doesn't eliminate any current standing claim then nothing does. House T won the claim by force of arms. If they assert that having a claim upon it trumps any current sitting claimant, then doesn't house Baratheon have a more recent claim on the same terms? If not, then wouldn't the previous house have greater claim? Either way, Dany's claim was tenuous before, and now it's evaporated with the reveal of Jon's heritage. Now I hope for him to survive the story and be legitimized as Lord Baratheon to revive that grand house as he's the last of his name. I never actually thought about the implications that could have as a throne contender! I don't see Gendry being the type to do that, despite being impulsively quick to react and a great fighter like his Dad. Would he want to push for conquering it for himself? Doubtful. Like Jon, he's more of a commoner's kind of leader. A man of simple ideals and a desire to go out and adventure and fight the good fight for life - which is why he was so eager to go with Jon north of the wall. But, he does have his Father's blood and you're right... if we're going to start discussing how the throne is claimed, he could be pointed out as a potential claimant. After all, he was the only one of Robert's bastards that escaped the 'purge' that Joffrey set in motion in S2. I was glad to see Gendry reveal his Baratheon 'bastardship' to Arya in 8.02 - I wonder if she's had the chance to connect it back to the S2 episode where she was convinced the Goldcloaks were coming for her when a subsequent episode revealed that they were coming for him. Well, for what it's worth, I do think D&D understand Jon's character as they have played him out beautifully for the past 7 seasons and Kit has portrayed him perfectly as well. Plus, we don't actually know, yet, if Jon's ok with this big reveal or if he's still in personal crisis over it. I think he is harboring a lot of anxiety about it that we haven't yet seen. If D&D are guilty of anything, it's that they have dragged this out for a long time since the end of Season 6 when we finally got the big R+L=J reveal. They dragged it out all through Season 7 (revealing that he's legitimate), and now in the final 6 episodes, it may feel a bit rushed for some of us. I know I really wanted to savor Jon's identity reveal and see how he personally worked through that - and perhaps we'll get some more of it in the final 4 hours ahead. That's probably the Shakespeare reference from Kit, as you say... how will Jon navigate this hot mess between his Stark family, the northerners, Daenerys, Cersei ... all of it? That's a lot for him to absorb and while his mind was solely on defeating the Night King... now that's done and he has to face the music of his song (of Ice and Fire!) ... Agree wholeheartedly! Here we are, many of us, speculating about the impact the reveal has on Dany when ... duh ... it's Jon's identity and his sense of it that is core.
|
|
izzue
Moondancer
@izzue
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 1,003
inherit
25
0
Mar 22, 2024 2:50:50 GMT -5
1,003
izzue
1,546
Jun 23, 2016 9:13:38 GMT -5
June 2016
izzue
|
Post by izzue on May 5, 2019 10:41:13 GMT -5
Don't mean to bombard this thread ... but just discussed this aspect with my daughter (an actor who studied at the Royal Shakespeare Academy in Stratford, UK and has performed in #ous S. plays). I thought her response was worth posting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
122
0
Apr 23, 2024 22:49:43 GMT -5
Deleted
0
Apr 23, 2024 22:49:43 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 11:20:28 GMT -5
That begs so many questions. First, what makes D's claim to the throne legit? House T lost that claim and was believed legally eradicated. If that doesn't eliminate any current standing claim then nothing does. House T won the claim by force of arms. If they assert that having a claim upon it trumps any current sitting claimant, then doesn't house Baratheon have a more recent claim on the same terms? If not, then wouldn't the previous house have greater claim? Either way, Dany's claim was tenuous before, and now it's evaporated with the reveal of Jon's heritage. House B's heir could be legitimatized, thereby challenging the opacity of Dany's claim. You know, I never even considered this possibility. I have long hoped for Gendry to return from his loooong rowing trip and somehow enter the game as a player, which they granted us in Season 7. Now I hope for him to survive the story and be legitimized as Lord Baratheon to revive that grand house as he's the last of his name. I never actually thought about the implications that could have as a throne contender! I don't see Gendry being the type to do that, despite being impulsively quick to react and a great fighter like his Dad. Would he want to push for conquering it for himself? Doubtful. Like Jon, he's more of a commoner's kind of leader. A man of simple ideals and a desire to go out and adventure and fight the good fight for life - which is why he was so eager to go with Jon north of the wall. But, he does have his Father's blood and you're right... if we're going to start discussing how the throne is claimed, he could be pointed out as a potential claimant. We have learned in GoT that whoever is strong enough to take the throne and hold it is the one with the claim. Robert broke the Targaryen dynasty. Cersei's children were bastards too with even less claim than Gendry since they had no Baratheon blood, but still both Joffrey and Tommen took the throne because of lies and popular belief that they were the rightful heirs. Now Cersei has it because there's no one left in the Baratheon line. It would be a really unique twist if Robert's trueblood son were to actually challenge her for it! But, back to Jon and Daenerys and the Targaryen half - we can only hope whatever uncomfortably twisted drama is in store for us tonight (as Kit worded it) plays out beautifully and makes sense. I'm sure we'll be debating it like crazy tomorrow! It's supposed to be a huge deal for his character who grew up to be a bastard, thinking Ned is his dad only to find out that's not the case. This is one of the few examples of how Weiss and Benioff do not fully understand some of their characters he is like just 'nah, I'm cool Targaryen' etc. Of course, he can embrace it at some point but there is a road to that as well. That's just dumbing down on the important aspect of his character and it's a secret about him that has been here since season/book 1. Well, for what it's worth, I do think D&D understand Jon's character as they have played him out beautifully for the past 7 seasons and Kit has portrayed him perfectly as well. Plus, we don't actually know, yet, if Jon's ok with this big reveal or if he's still in personal crisis over it. I think he is harboring a lot of anxiety about it that we haven't yet seen. If D&D are guilty of anything, it's that they have dragged this out for a long time since the end of Season 6 when we finally got the big R+L=J reveal. They dragged it out all through Season 7 (revealing that he's legitimate), and now in the final 6 episodes, it may feel a bit rushed for some of us. I know I really wanted to savor Jon's identity reveal and see how he personally worked through that - and perhaps we'll get some more of it in the final 4 hours ahead. That's probably the Shakespeare reference from Kit, as you say... how will Jon navigate this hot mess between his Stark family, the northerners, Daenerys, Cersei ... all of it? That's a lot for him to absorb and while his mind was solely on defeating the Night King... now that's done and he has to face the music of his song (of Ice and Fire!) ... Dragging this reveal isn't so much of a problem imo considering they had to introduce Dany and Jon before that so it has some angst, tension between two of the main characters to each other, to let it play out. Before that NK and his invasion, politics. Jon's controversial moments in the books were omitted. His abilities as a ruler also were put said for time reasons while in NW and let's not forget that he has a direwolf that he's not even noticing. Some aspects of his story as a reader that I found interesting are missing. Weiss and Benioff at times are being criticized by fans from what I saw far more for Tyrion and Dany in terms of their adaptations but that is for another debate.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 5, 2019 12:16:12 GMT -5
Dragging this reveal isn't so much of a problem imo considering they had to introduce Dany and Jon before that so it has some angst, tension between two of the main characters to each other, to let it play out. Before that NK and his invasion, politics. Sure, I'm just saying I don't generally have any problems with the show-writer's decisions so far with it other than a few minor nitpicks. It's not perfect but I do like where it's gone so far and I'm here to see it through to the ending - whatever that is they've chosen to go with. I thought I would be a lot more upset about the Night King being destroyed well before the ending of the story, but I'm not that upset and that's why I started this thread, to explore the Shakespeare elements of episode 804 and the ending in general. From what I can tell... this whole political "Right To Rule" theme is going to boil to the surface in tonight's episode 4 and from here on out just gather intensity all the way to King's Landing.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on May 5, 2019 12:26:58 GMT -5
Don't mean to bombard this thread ... but just discussed this aspect with my daughter (an actor who studied at the Royal Shakespeare Academy in Stratford, UK and has performed in #ous S. plays). I thought her response was worth posting. It's perfectly ok to bombard this thread, that's why I made it a separate thread from the 804 Early Discussion / Preview Thread! I wanted people to have a place to discuss the political angle of this story in regards to Kit's Shakespeare comment and what that means for Jon, Daenerys, Cersei and everyone else that's left. And I agree with your daughter, tell her that was a great bit of feedback! That's what I wanted to hear and talk about from people because I think some might be misinterpreting what Kit meant by "It's so Shakespearian" and how pop culture adapts to what the people want to watch and hear. Game of Thrones as a pop culture icon, is definitely giving us that in spades. Shakespeare was so popular because everyone could relate to the story, even if it was about kings and queens and royal politics. I think Game of Thrones writers are doing a pretty good job of that overall. I don't agree with all of their choices and didn't like all of the storylines we were given over the years but as a whole, it's a great story and very popular so it's working and doesn't need to cater only to book fanatics and literary geniuses.
|
|