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Post by konradsmith on Jun 6, 2019 19:45:48 GMT -5
Also, for what it's worth with Daenerys threatening to turn their cities to the dirt ... we had numerous occasions where Cersei threatened to "Burn this city to the ground" which many of us took to be foreshadowing she would use wildfire on the city (and maybe Jaime would try to stop her)... So you guys tell me, if someone says they're going to do something, that's foreshadowing they ARE going to do it, or they aren't? Which is it, because so far I've seen you guys arguing it both ways and I'm sorry you can't have it both ways. Jon was given Longclaw by Jorah with comment on how it should go to his heirs/children after him, and he in turn pointed out to Daenerys that her belief in not being able to have children might be flawed, along with Dany repeating many times that the dragons were here only children. Yet still, many people after Season 7 said this was clearly foreshadowing that Daenerys would be pregnant. But she wasn't. That foreshadowing meant nothing. You guys are saying that foreshadowing was strong that Daenerys would burn down King's Landing... but I've given you examples where something foreshadowed DID NOT happen. Is it not foreshadowing if it doesn't happen then and is real foreshadowing if it does? There have always been lines that allude to things which end up happening and ones that suggest things that don't occur. If one didn't know the books' events before s1 they might hope Greatjon Umber saying they'll kill Tywin and go to the Red Keep and free Ned was foreshadowing. We try and guess which lines are which and are often mistaken in our certainty. But we can only know after the fact when the events alluded to occur or don't. So the fact that there were false leads and purposefully misleading lines here and there doesn't invalidate the actual groundwork laid about an ending they've known about for a long time. Whether the groundwork laid was insufficient or not is a different issue.
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Post by nikma on Jun 6, 2019 19:47:25 GMT -5
It's not foreshadowing. It's her character development that people wanted to ignore. She wanted to burn 2 cities at the end of S6. It's not just threat. It was her plan. Until Tyrion convinced her otherwise.
"Foreshadowing is not character development" is something that sounds smart but means nothing in this case. That argument could be used if only set up for burning of KL was Bran's visions or something like that.
But this was the person that wanted to burn Red Keep in S7, wanted to burn Astapor and Yunkai in S6 and in S5 told that maybe Meereen should burn and all people that will die there will die for a good reason. All of that happened before all the tragedies she faced in S7 and S8.
What more people need to believe that this person is capable of burning city if she believes there is a good reason for that? Did D&D need to write her burning a small village first?
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Post by Envie on Jun 6, 2019 19:57:08 GMT -5
Whether the groundwork laid was insufficient or not is a different issue. Exactly. Except, people keep going back to the 'foreshadowing' issue as their argument for why it made sense to them. And that's what I'm trying to point out many of us are not buying. You can't keep pushing one issue over onto the other and say they're one and the same and then using the straw man argument that Dany fans are just 'butthurt' they didn't get the ending they wanted. And let me clarify. Not you specifically, but there are those here who are saying that and again, it's flat out wrong. Plenty of non-Dany fans (including the two videos I linked) have made a case for why it was badly written in how they brought Daenerys to the ending she got. Nezzer has argued it quite a few times here and he's one of the biggest non-Dany fans I know in our group. Basil was never a huge fan either that I'm aware of, but they seem to understand what the primary issue really is and that's in not giving the character arc the time it needed to go down that path. Not even close. Again, my primary write-up in the Season 8 general forum explains far better, overall as a whole story why I ended up unhappy with the way they ended Game of Thrones. For me, it's not JUST about Daenerys. It really isn't. In fact I'd say I was just as upset by the way they played out the Night King, Jon, Jaime/Cersei and even Varys. I'm no more likely to convince you guys it's not all about Dany and being 'butthurt' for many fans (not just me) than you are to convince me the ending was laid out clearly and made sense for all of the characters I listed. It just flat out wasn't. I explained all of that in my Final Thoughts essay.
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Post by Envie on Jun 6, 2019 21:51:17 GMT -5
What more people need to believe that this person is capable of burning city if she believes there is a good reason for that?FINALLY. Amen R'hllor you finally answered your own question. I am glad I looked at the reply after all. I figured in one of your responses you would eventually circle back around to the same argument and make a valid point while trying to argue against mine. Yes, please tell me, what city or people did Dany burn because she believed there was a good reason to do so?
Did I emphasize that for you enough? a good reason to do so... She didn't. She had absolutely NO GOOD REASON to burn King's Landing. They rang the damn bells. The city was surrendering! All she had to do was fly up to the Red Keep and take it. Who is going to stand in her way there, The Mountain? He was soon to be busy fighting his own brother after he tossed his creator aside like a doll. Cersei had to peace out of that one and was completely alone in an abandoned castle so I highly doubt Dany would have had any trouble taking the castle or the city without burning it down first. Daenerys suddenly decided to burn down King's Landing anyway. She had absolutely no good reason. Because ... they didn't write one. That's the whole problem. The writers knew they had to get Daenerys to the point she was going to burn King's Landing so that the finale events would play out correctly. They built their ending first (because that's all they had to go on) and then they wound up the yo-yo of plot strings backwards to get to a place each character was in the right place to make that happen. It's like watching a movie in reverse. That's why people are so upset with how they ended Varys, and Cersei and Jaime... those characters became irrelevant once the show writers had to simply eliminate them because they no longer served the plot ending they had to get to - don't you even see that? People are furious that both Varys and Tyrion spent all of seasons 7 and 8 essentially being useless and saying stupid things. These were two of the most clever men in all of Westeros aside from Littlefinger who is now dead and yet both of them suddenly seemed to lose all ability to do anything good for the characters they represented. That's because they couldn't. Logical writing would have had them figure out a way to make Daenerys and Jon work out. It was even suggested they marry - but no, that couldn't work because then how would we get Jon to betray her?? (this is not a Jonerys plug) This is the butterfly effect GRRM was talking about. Change one small thing and the ripples of that change radiate out into 20 other things that would have gone differently had you not changed it. When you start to paint characters into a corner, and they cannot rely on logical character development anymore, it begins to affect all of the other characters around them who needed it for their own story arcs! THAT is what I think happened. Dan and Dave were pretty good when they had George's writing to fall back on even when they decided to change the story in certain ways like having Sansa take the place of fArya and the Bolton story, or keeping Beric alive instead of killing him off to bring Catelyn back. Or having Jorah get grayscale instead of Jon Connington. Those were decisions they made that worked for the show and the story we had at the time. But what of all those little changes (and there are many others not just the ones I listed) somehow altered the story just enough that it suddenly changes the path to the ending? What if GRRM didn't give them enough details (because he hasn't written it himself yet) about how Bran actually GETS to becoming king, or Jon kills Dany and why? What if they had to rely on their own storytelling ability to fill in all the gaps and wrote backwards from the ending they were given to do that backfill? Characters like Stannis, or Mance Rayder, or Stoneheart, or Euron or Victarion or numerous others could exist in ways in the books that are actually necessary to getting to a logical conclusion like Daenerys being killed by Jon or Bran becoming king. We have no idea what's missing and neither did Dan and Dave, it seems. Instead of trying so hard to go back in time to all the episodes and pull out references to 'make it fit' (sort of like they did with the blue eyes line for Arya) why don't you stop and actually listen to any of the logical arguments we've given (and the videos of logical people really explaining it more carefully than I could) and realize that yes, in fact, the writing was just bad for season 8. It was bad. But please, don't just take my word for it and continue to argue against me (or others here) in this very limited venue. Actually go out there with an open mind and listen to the intelligent people analyzing the final season (and comparing it to previous ones) to actually examine in detail where things began to fall apart and no longer make sense for the character development and progression of the story as a whole. Here's another well thought out example: At around 11 minutes into this 18 minute analysis video of the final season, he will quote 'The Anatomy of a Story' by John Truby regarding story arcs: Walter White's transformation in Breaking Bad is used as an excellent example of how character development and progression can be done in a way that doesn't make the character 'good' or overcoming their obstacles in the end but can still be incredibly powerful and satisfying for it's audience. But that's not what we got with Daenerys. People are trying to explain that effective character change is slow and methodical. We got a drastic character change in Daenerys in two episodes. Two. Most of Dany's ' descent' into depression and ultimately her ' madness' is done mostly off screen like many other bits were annoyingly done throughout the season. Jon arrives at Dragonstone to be told by Varys that Dany has stayed alone in her room refusing all contact with others and not eating. This is all we got. It's all we got for Jaime too... while important characters like Jon Snow and Cersei were mostly sidelined as characters entirely throughout season 8. Is it any wonder so many fans are pissed? Were there really THAT many butthurt Daenerys fans out there? No. You know what it really is but you refuse to admit it. So you continue to tell me that foreshadowing not equaling character development is just a clever saying that doesn't really mean anything? It means everything. They failed at character development in their final act. Period. Seasons 7 and 8 were sprinting to the finish line. They failed to resolve the character arcs that actually meant something important to the story. Jon Snow, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Varys, Bran Stark... all of them became cardboard cutouts of the characters they should have been in the end. Keep telling me it's just about Daenerys ...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 0:53:13 GMT -5
I would say it's fine that people's opinions differ, but I find it a bit irritating that we get accused of strawman arguments and not having explained Dany's motivations beyond just saying "it was foreshadowed". That is not true. Many of us have explained how it was not only foreshadowed but how Dany's character development made sense on top of that. I tried to do that here for example: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/73005I'd say at this point we can only agree to disagree, to be honest. But I will not lie, I'm a bit bothered by how certain fans complain about people who are overall happy with S8 and who were not surprised by Dany's development. Who is trying to convince who here? : lol:
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 3:11:40 GMT -5
The reason is - let it be fear. That's the reason. She will rule through fear. And also a punishment for those who didn't want to be saved.
We saw in the very first scene of this season how she enjoyed people being affraid of her dragons. We saw it the moment her brother died. And since that moment in every season she had a scene where she enjoyed the power of fear.
And do you really want us to take seriously video with title "The moment GoT died". So that's the reasonable criticism? I don't want to support that outrage culture in any way. Didn't with TLJ and nonsense that Rian killed Star Wars and I won't here.
Daenerys wanted to burn Yunkai and Astapor in S6 even before all the tragedies she faced in later season. You can't ignore that. It's not only foreshadowing,it's what her plan was. What good reason really existed there? People ignored that becauae they don't really care for those cuties but that't the point
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 3:39:24 GMT -5
I'd say at this point we can only agree to disagree, to be honest. But this is the problem. They don't want to let us to agree to disagree. All over the internet. We have to accept that S8 is bad, that the way they wrote some characters is bad. There is no room for disagreement. There is no "I think this is bad, but if you like it, fine". No, you are show apologist, dishonest person, you don't what to see "legitimate criticism". This whole discussIon started when one person asked us to try to defend the show. So now we have to apologize for our taste? We are only allowed to like S8 if we accept that's bad and we love bad writing . We are not allowed to like the way things are written, because... it offends them? It's really strange. We explain many times why we buy Dany'a development. And I even said you either buy it or not. There is nothing you can do there. We don't have her POV. It's different way people see things. But it seems we are not allowed to like it. We have to see the Truth. It's objectively bad. Because YT videos said that.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 7, 2019 4:04:15 GMT -5
Hey, at least people are posting again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 4:10:56 GMT -5
That was kind of the point of that line though. In general in the show when the characters say some eventuality or another will never come to pass, it does. Which is exactly what people took from that line at the time. They just expected her to be Queen of the Ashes because Cersei nuked the city, not Dany herself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 4:12:04 GMT -5
The reason is - let it be fear. That's the reason. She will rule through fear. And also a punishment for those who didn't want to be saved. We saw in the very first scene of this season how she enjoyed people being affraid of her dragons. We saw it the moment her brother died. And since that moment in every season she had a scene where she enjoyed the power of fear. And do you really want us to take seriously video with title "The moment GoT died". So that's the reasonable criticism? I don't want to support that outrage culture in any way. Didn't with TLJ and nonsense that Rian killed Star Wars and I won't here. Daenerys wanted to burn Yunkai and Astapor in S6 even before all the tragedies she faced in later season. You can't ignore that. It's not only foreshadowing,it's what her plan was. What good reason really existed there? People ignored that becauae they don't really care for those cuties but that't the point Maybe actually watch the fucking video instead of nitpicking the title (it’s a series btw he’s done The Office, The Simpson’s, etc not just your precious GoT). But you continue to be insufferable when it comes to an all out defense of everything those two ever put on screen, so why should we expect any objectivity now...
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 4:16:32 GMT -5
I watched (I think) every video you put here. It's just the same argument we heard here. It's the same idea that there is only one way to write that type of character decisions. That it has to happen very slow and so on. I disagree.
Accepted that and move on.
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 4:25:19 GMT -5
And this level of aggression and almost ad hominem attacks towards people who like the show is really scary. I feel like I'm defending some war crimes and not writing of TV show.
Not to offend anyone, but I find really creepy parallels between Daenerys and her fans. The same attitude. The same black and white perspective. We know what is good and you don't get to choose.
Not a singe "the writing was really bad, but I respect your opinion".
Bend the knee or burn.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 4:32:15 GMT -5
The reason is - let it be fear. That's the reason. She will rule through fear. And also a punishment for those who didn't want to be saved. We saw in the very first scene of this season how she enjoyed people being affraid of her dragons. We saw it the moment her brother died. And since that moment in every season she had a scene where she enjoyed the power of fear. And do you really want us to take seriously video with title "The moment GoT died". So that's the reasonable criticism? I don't want to support that outrage culture in any way. Didn't with TLJ and nonsense that Rian killed Star Wars and I won't here. Daenerys wanted to burn Yunkai and Astapor in S6 even before all the tragedies she faced in later season. You can't ignore that. It's not only foreshadowing,it's what her plan was. What good reason really existed there? People ignored that becauae they don't really care for those cuties but that't the point I would add another reason: Dany has, in the past, shown support for killing innocents for the "greater good" (aforementioned examples of her plan to burn the slave cities, which she'd previously justified by saying collateral damage victims would have died for a "good reason"), which is something she reinforced in 805. I think she reached a stage where she thought it better that Cersei-supporting innocents die so they can't pass Cersei-supporting notions on to future generations. To build a new world, you have to almost start from scratch.
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 4:43:49 GMT -5
And what kind of victory it would be if she accepted Cersei's surrender? The woman who already had 2 chances to make peace.
Sansa is still against her. Jon still rejects her. She can't trust Tyrion. She lost so much and people in the North seem ungrateful to her. People in KL, unlike those in Meereen, didn't rebel against Cersei.
So what kind of rule that would be? Just waiting for more betrayals.
So it had to be fear. When they see what she did in KL no one would dare to refuse her rule. It would be her version of Harenhall or Field of Fire.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 5:07:06 GMT -5
Like curbstomping the Golden Company, incinerating the entire Iron fleet, and taking KL in about 30 seconds wouldn’t have been enough to make people fear her? Not to mention she previously beat the best commander in Westeros in Randyll Tarly in the field. Also completely one-sided.
Completely asinine argument.
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