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Post by moiaf on Jun 21, 2016 20:13:44 GMT -5
One of the most controversial characters in the epic saga A song of Ice and Fire, Daenerys Targaryen is a women unlike most, a woman who wields power in her own right. Born as her family and her House were being brought down by the Lords of Winterfell, Daenerys grew up in exile in the free cities of Essos. She had a difficulty childhood, without the stability of a home and her only family was an unstable brother. But even with this tragic childhood, she would not let herself be defeated by life. Like a Phoenix or Dragon she rose from the ashes of her loved ones pyre to become the Dragon Queen we all love and fear. Here we can discuss her future, her motivations, and her acitions. Figuring out what makes our queen tick. @nictarion & Envie this is for you!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 20:19:42 GMT -5
That art is gorgeous.
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Post by Envie on Jun 21, 2016 21:29:09 GMT -5
Yes that's a beautiful piece of work!
I have been a long time fan of Daenerys and through the years have seen all sorts of responses to her character. Some have puzzled me with thinking she's as crazy as her Father. Others were outlandish with ridicule for her "failures" and still others put her on a pedestal as a perfect Goddess who could do no wrong. I never thought of her as any of those things. To me Daenerys is a girl who struggles to do the right thing against immense odds and very little guidance. That somehow, even without the Targaryen house to guide her, she still managed to become a conqueror as much or more as her blood lineage ancestors but in her own right, with no help and her own wits. She's far from perfect and continues to hold onto stubborn ideals that cause her no end of troubles but which force her to grow and overcome along the way.
I have also enjoyed the long journey she's been making with the singular goal of returning to Westeros as the rightful ruler because of the irony in that expectation. As we are learning from the show, everything in Westeros is quickly falling to pieces everywhere and by the time Daenerys actually reaches the shores of Westeros, there may not even be an Iron Throne for her to take or challenge. This forces the reader (or viewer) to examine the bigger picture, just as Jon Snow is experiencing in the North. It's not about the Night's Watch, or the Boltons, but something far worse. Daenerys does not know this yet and I look forward to seeing how she adapts and changes her ideals and thinking when the real enemy becomes apparent.
In the end, Daenerys is a savior even more than she's a conqueror. I think she will do the right thing and join forces with the North to defeat the coming of winter and the White Walkers.
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Post by moiaf on Jun 26, 2016 17:34:24 GMT -5
I'm reposting this here because it's one of my favorite Dany essays:
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Post by sercreighton on Jun 28, 2016 19:53:52 GMT -5
The shadow city, really? That's not a bad pick up. But I am not sure that is right. The story is cyclical in it's nature and we often see things repeat as history often does. In the case of that prophecy, Drogon was the shadow. It happened in the HotU, north, south, up and down she had to invert everything to get out. In order to get to the light she had to pass beneath Drogon who was sitting on the door guiding her out because he is a good little dragon who loves his mommy.
I like that picture of her with her Lion Fur.
Here is one for you, triangles. That's right geometry, I am going to do the geometry of Dany, and it has to do with that fur. Well not really geometry, but sort of. So. Assume most understand about Dany and 3's and her connection there, unlike Jon not the three heads of the dragon Snow. Though he is tied to this. There is of course the magical aspect, the trinity aspect, and the cyclical aspect. But what about love triangles. Martin always wanted to write a love triangle and it's doubtful it will be about 11 year old Arya.
Dany and threes are like peas and carrots, they always go together. When you meet her she gets wed to Drogo the slaver, and her brother a Targaryen King thinks she should be his bride. I think part of his breaking was that he may have been in love with her on some messed up level. It was in a sense almost a love triangle.
Next we come to her second husband also a slaver, Hiz, and she is also involved with Darrio a Crow who she feels could almost be Targaryen. Again we get slaver and Targaryen.
Now Tyrion was meant to be part of an original love triangle with Arya. It could happen with Dany and that would involve Jon as well. Now that is either double Targaryen or Targaryen and not slaver. Now both slavers were actualyl connected to Lions, Drogo gave her the pelt, and Hiz used them in the fighting pits, he wanted to actually set them lose on Penny and Tyrion.
So slaver marked by Lion and a Targaryen King Crow. Which leads you to wear?
Well Jon is one obvious answer, and the other is well an Other, The Nght's King, in a sense he is very much a slaver, the Wights are Thralls and a thrall is a slave. Second he is in fact a Lannister, and we get hints about that with the Lion of Night and so on. Now there are a lot of other clues about the Nght's King and Lannister but I am not going to write about them here.
There is also this idea that Dany tends to survive her men, Drogo and Viserys, Hiz and perhaps Darrio, the show has it's version but they don't always match the books but I look forward to finding out.
Now personally I don't doubt the Nght's King wants Dany to be his Queen or that she and Jon will fall in love. Parallels are tricky things in Martin's books and often times we see the clues and the juxtaposition. And it occures, it always happens something changes.
In one aspect we have Dany who survives her husbands, or the men of her life. You invert that and you end up with Jon and the Nght's King being alive which seems kind of odd. If anyone is not surviving it would be the Nght's King. That would be a huge problem for the world.
The other aspect is Dany's pregnancies, yes plural. The first child is a still born, and the second is a miscarriage we see at the end of Dance. There will be a third, now if things invert the way they should when she comes to Westeros the Child should live. I highly doubt it will be the Nght Kings. Now I also suspect that who she marries will also invert, instead of the slaver, she marries the Targ, or sort of Targ. Of course she could die, and they could all die, but it would seem awfully strange for Martin to go through all these parallels, and have these repetative pregnancies just to do 3 unborn children. 2 of which would have no impact on the story. And of course if you follow the theory that the Dragons contain the souls of Viserys, Drogo and her son, then her son was in fact a Dragon or a Targaryen. At least from a symbolic standpoint. Bt as a clue it would seem to indicate that she will have a child who is a dragon.
All three could pass away and the Child survives to be raised by Tyrion. Or Jon or the Dragons could sacrifice themselves for her. It's a bit curious. After all Dany is fire and desire and love. Even in the old stories the Maiden made of light was love. Yes she has an edge but Dany is love, after all love can hurt. It would just seem strange for an author so attatched to symbolism to kill off his primary symbol of love and motherhood. Of course the child could carry on her legacy, or perhaps even twins you never know.
It's probably the toughest thing to figure out with Jon and Dany, at least for me, do they make it? Does one make it? Do they sacrifice themselves? We may have a couple of years left in the story so it would seem enough time. And it's not like I doubt Dany and Jon would sacrifice themselves. It just doesn't explain the pregnancies and the point of them. Or her symbolism. Maybe Drogon throws Jon at the Night's King thus killing him and Dany, Drogon and little baby Daemon live happy ever after. Like Drogon being all "fuck this shit I have done way more than Jon, hell Sam has done more than Jon, fast ball special bastard you're going to save the world, it's going to be great."
Honestly the could both live and it could be the Dragons that are sacrificed, thus removing magic from the world or some such thing because Martin can't let anyone have any fun on their dragon.
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Post by sercreighton on Jun 28, 2016 22:30:32 GMT -5
Sorry I forgot one tiny little thing. It's both show and book related I hope that's okay if something needs to be in spoilers I am sure someone will let me know.
Jon dies already, right? He is brought back via fire, but you can basically consider him undead and reanimated by fire from a red priestess. Well the Night's King also undead, had his fire taken out which made him ice right? Fire and Ice. Two undead agents of fire and ice, two kings. Jon has always had the symbolic ice and fire aspect. But who had the literal aspect or will have the literal aspect? Who walks between them? Drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire.
Two Lord commanders, 2 Kings, two Crows, a cat and a canine the inversion between them, ice and fire. 1 Women, 1 Queen, but 2 aspects.
Lucky for her she is the Bride of fire. Lucky for Dany the Wolf has a secret.
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Post by sercreighton on Jun 28, 2016 22:54:30 GMT -5
That art is gorgeous. Have you sent that meme to Paperweaver yet? You know the one of Jon not riding 120ft long super awesome Drogon. Just curious, because I totally would have. You know it's Jon's dragon and it flew off to be with him. Oh wait it didn't. I sent it to Apple even though she went into hiding after she realized how very wrong she was. Very, very, very wrong. Oh the slavery thing didn't go the way some people thought did it? Oops. I really shouldn't be petty but I am. Those were really fun debates back in the day, over and over, and over, and over again. Hope your doing well man, you know during all those insane Dany debates, we dug coal together. Alright I won't right any more petty posts or get nostalgic about really annoying debates... here. Just wanted to say high.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 23:02:45 GMT -5
That art is gorgeous. Have you sent that meme to Paperweaver yet? You know the one of Jon not riding 120ft long super awesome Drogon. Just curious, because I totally would have. You know it's Jon's dragon and it flew off to be with him. Oh wait it didn't. I sent it to Apple even though she went into hiding after she realized how very wrong she was. Very, very, very wrong. Oh the slavery thing didn't go the way some people thought did it? Oops. I really shouldn't be petty but I am. Those were really fun debates back in the day, over and over, and over, and over again. Hope your doing well man, you know during all those insane Dany debates, we dug coal together. Alright I won't right any more petty posts or get nostalgic about really annoying debates... here. Just wanted to say high. I'm glad you're here man. If we ever get Winds of Winter you will be a valuable contributor to our books section. Which is something we really want to build up here. I was actually just talking to moiaf about all the broken records over at Westeros and how wrong they were about so many things regarding Dany. I'm not going to lie, it feels pretty good.
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Post by sercreighton on Jun 28, 2016 23:46:16 GMT -5
Have you sent that meme to Paperweaver yet? You know the one of Jon not riding 120ft long super awesome Drogon. Just curious, because I totally would have. You know it's Jon's dragon and it flew off to be with him. Oh wait it didn't. I sent it to Apple even though she went into hiding after she realized how very wrong she was. Very, very, very wrong. Oh the slavery thing didn't go the way some people thought did it? Oops. I really shouldn't be petty but I am. Those were really fun debates back in the day, over and over, and over, and over again. Hope your doing well man, you know during all those insane Dany debates, we dug coal together. Alright I won't right any more petty posts or get nostalgic about really annoying debates... here. Just wanted to say high. I'm glad you're here man. If we ever get Winds of Winter you will be a valuable contributor to our books section. Which is something we really want to build up here. I was actually just talking to moiaf about all the broken records over at Westeros and how wrong they were about so many things regarding Dany. I'm not going to lie, it feels pretty good. Winds is coming, at some point, in the future. I got something for the books section I have been sitting on for little bit now. Wanted the season to end first, didn't want any surprises where I had to adjust it. You were the first Dany fan I met when I came the board back then, so that was two of us. I was like what is wrong with this place are they reading the same books? Poor slavers? What the hell is going on here? Oh wait he thinks slavers are bad too no wonder they are angry at him. As for the broken records not all of them faded away, but man are they grasping at straws. JQC came back this week and has been spamming the hate, along with half a dozen new people who have 100 posts between them, but they only post were she posts. And it's all about Val, the entire series. I don't even bother anymore. I'll try to add what I can to the books section. I got something coming for those of us who still talk about the books, I hope it's good.
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Post by moiaf on Jun 29, 2016 13:28:13 GMT -5
You know, I was thinking about Dany and childbirth recently. Do you remember that discussion we had about a year and a half ago? Anyhow, it was the idea that Dany couldn’t have children because of the dragons, that the dragons require that she be their mother alone. When Dany was pregnant with Rhaego she use to hold the dragon eggs close to her and wished for her child to bond with their “brother” the dragon inside the egg. I think this could have caused some kind of transference from the child to the egg. Later in A Dance of Dragons, while Dany is in the Dothraki sea she miscarriages just before she embraces the dragons (i.e. Drogon) as her true children, instead of the Meereenes slavers. Inadvertently, she has chosen her dragons over her real life children. Anyhow, as we reach the ending of the series (at least on TV) I was thinking about whether or not Dany will have a child before the end. I think in the end Dany will sacrifice her dragon(s) for her children, whether it’ll be her own children or the children of the future. Going back to the ever talked about MMD prophecy I feel I should point out something we forget, what Dany actually asked MMD was, “When will he [Drogo] be as he was?” To which MMD’s response is never or at least I believe that’s what she was trying to say with her suppose “prophecy”. So, either GRRM changed what the “prophecy” is supposed to mean or we and Dany have been looking at this the wrong way. Which leads me to ask the question is Drogo suppose to be Dany’s only love, which I hope the answer is no, for two reasons. First, Dany was a child (13-14 years old) when she was with him, that should not be the love of your life and secondly Dany has yet to deal with who Drogo really was and I really hope that GRRM addresses this. She hasn’t been confronted with the fact that Drogo was a slaver a rapist and a pillager, he is everything she now stands against. Had he been alive he would have been one of the Khals she would have burned at Vaes Dothrak. I really feel like she needs to come to term with this. She can appreciate what he meant for her then, how having his love and some respect made her feel loved important for the first time in her life and that was good for her personal development. However, if she had known him now, he would be her enemy. I dono, that’s something that’s really bothered me, that Dany hasn’t really reflected on that and I think it’s because she still has Drogo love goggles on and I need someone to take them off. Regarding the threes, I like your idea about her being love and life. D&D recently gave an interview in which they said that the Night’s King is not really evil, he’s a force of destruction and death. He was made to bring death and that is what he is doing. It’s a lot more complicated and more simple that our beloved Sauron from LotR. Anyhow, this made me thing that Dany and Jon are the perfect opponents for this force of nature. Dany, herself, is a force of nature (Stormborn) but her “power” is life, motherhood, fire. In an interview GRRM discuss the poem of Fire and Ice by Frost and this is what he said: She is in direct opposition to the cold inhumanity coming towards Westeros. Jon is someone who was once dead and now is back alive. In the episode Battle of the Bastard they describe Jon clawing his way up from the dead as a rebirth. He too has chosen life over death. Dany rose from the ashes of her dead husband and child to not only live but also bring life, i.e. the dragons. What they represent and stand for is in direct opposition to the Night’s King and it’s not like other characters don’t stand for the same thing, they do, they also want to live. But these two characters have a pretty unique perspective and abilities that will be integral to this fight.
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Post by moiaf on Jun 29, 2016 20:06:12 GMT -5
I forgot to add that although I lean towards Dany dying in the end (sad) there is a possibility of her survival. She has been reborn twice in fire, I think we might see it for a third and final time before the dragons die (I think the reason she can survive the fire or resist it in the case of the books is her connection to the dragons(. We talked about the Others being the embodiment of death and Dany being one of the embodiments of life (and her symbolism as a mother) but also symbolic of love. Her third fire is "to love", which is interesting because the first two fires are FOR, yet this one is TO. What is GRRM trying to tells us? I honestly don't know but I think we might see Dany surviving and loosing her hair one more time as a symbol of rebirth as the new person she will be after the death of her dragons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 20:26:22 GMT -5
I forgot to add that although I lean towards Dany dying in the end (sad) there is a possibility of her survival. She has been reborn twice in fire, I think we might see it for a third and final time before the dragons die (I think the reason she can survive the fire or resist it in the case of the books is her connection to the dragons(. We talked about the Others being the embodiment of death and Dany being one of the embodiments of life (and her symbolism as a mother) but also symbolic of love. Her third fire is "to love", which is interesting because the first two fires are FOR, yet this one is TO. What is GRRM trying to tells us? I honestly don't know but I think we might see Dany surviving and loosing her hair one more time as a symbol of rebirth as the new person she will be after the death of her dragons. I so wish I believed she will survive. I don't how to interpret the show HotU vision any other way than foreshadowing her death beyond the Wall though.
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Post by moiaf on Jun 29, 2016 20:36:54 GMT -5
I forgot to add that although I lean towards Dany dying in the end (sad) there is a possibility of her survival. She has been reborn twice in fire, I think we might see it for a third and final time before the dragons die (I think the reason she can survive the fire or resist it in the case of the books is her connection to the dragons(. We talked about the Others being the embodiment of death and Dany being one of the embodiments of life (and her symbolism as a mother) but also symbolic of love. Her third fire is "to love", which is interesting because the first two fires are FOR, yet this one is TO. What is GRRM trying to tells us? I honestly don't know but I think we might see Dany surviving and loosing her hair one more time as a symbol of rebirth as the new person she will be after the death of her dragons. I so wish I believed she will survive. I don't how to interpret the show HotU vision any other way than foreshadowing her death beyond the Wall though. I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving.
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Post by Envie on Jul 5, 2016 11:01:36 GMT -5
Just posting so I can get subscribed to this thread, it's a great one. I skimmed over it and want to participate in much more detail once I've gotten back home and some time to relax and back into the groove of discusssions. I'm going to head up the show re-watch project, but I'm hoping to also start a book re-read project at some point over the long winter's wait for another show season or the next book.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 5, 2016 14:37:19 GMT -5
I so wish I believed she will survive. I don't how to interpret the show HotU vision any other way than foreshadowing her death beyond the Wall though. I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving. You know I think the three of us once spent half a week explaining the the imagery of the blue roses in KL and in that scene to a certain piece of angry fruit cocktail. I think you have to take the scene as inspiration from the books which clearly it is and cross interpret between them, because they are very different but they have some similarities. Blue is the primary color in both and with the Warlocks, D&D did not miss that or the cold, and we know they tie this blue rose symbolism to Dany at least twice in KL. Once when Ned speaks about her to Robert and you see Ned standing between Robert and the Rose when he speaks of killing children, and once in the undying scene. In the show undying scene they seem to be drawing a connection to the blue rose, Dany, her sun and stars and a child. We also get the wall and winter of course. Daario will later give her the famed bouquet of symbolism. Now going back to last season, and season five we get two parallels in prophecy. Maggy the frog gives a prophecy of Kings and Children, but in her case the children die, 3 to be exact. It's about Cersei and her self destructive future. Now Dany gets that prophecy from the Maegi, Maegi/Maggy, now in Dany's it's inverted. You get perspective, when something inverts, the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. If we take Dany as the Maiden made of light, her moving from Essos (The east) to Westeros the west fulfills this aspect. It's all symbolism. And with Dany it's about her sun and stars returning to her and a living child in her arms. 1 child and the numbers 1 and 3 are almost always Juxtaposed in Martins world. You can make a consideration for Jon in the role of the husband. Now look at the results of what Mirri did, why didn't she kill Dany? She had plenty of chances. She feared Rhaego and Drogo and what they would do, but if her prophecy is any suggestion she had an idea that Dany would still go west. And what if she knows what she is saying is true? She may only see the symbolism but she seems to have an idea and look at the results. Dany becomes the opposite of what she fears, Dany does not become a slaver, but the breaker of chains. She makes allies of the Lambs men in Dance. Now if you take those 2 prophecies and tie them together with the Undying from the show and books. You have kings, children or child, and a Queen. I can't speak to why D&D put a child and and husband in the scene but the books follow a pretty basic pattern of the Oroboros, cyclical nature. Ser Arthur Dayne, and so it begins. Ned Stark, now it ends. Well in the vision of a possible future what is Dany seeing? The past. So it begins and so it ends all at once. So Dany's past contains a possible future as Mirri points out, when he returns to her. I think we can get that far with it. Will she die? Will the Dragons die? Well if the magic goes as is often talked about which would suck. But if it goes I guess the Dragons, the Night's king, and Jon all die. Jon is undead, it's magic that has him up and walking around. In the books we have seen that last kiss people can't exist without the fire of life. Beric, he died without it. Probably the two most highly speculated characters to die, are Jon and Dany, and probably Arya also, oh and Sansa. Seems like it's unlikely they all die given the treatment. So I am going to go with Jon Dying, Sansa and Rickon, Rickon seems like a safe bet. But Martin said this was about a return of a house to it's glory basically. Well we need someone for that and since I killed Jon. We need the Wonder of her age and her dragons, because her house is all about the Dragons, and dump the ice magic because it's only good for AC and Dany is fine with the heat, and we need fire to cook, and light and stuff. So Dany, Drogon, little baby Ned or maybe Jaime, Tyrion as Hand. Tyrion without Dragons seems a hard sell for this world. But Hand which seems like his destiny seems a good fit. Don't want to seperate a baby from it's mother, that would be a dick move Martin and Martin is a mamma's boy we all know it. It would be very bitter sweet, first Stannis and then Jon and lets be honest and the show touched on this the Kings keep screwing up this place, we need a strong female ruler. We deserve a strong female ruler. Dany is all about the love, the middle class and lower class being risen up, the sharing of wealth, equal rights, women's rights, born in fire, forged by flame your next ruler of Westeros, Daenerys Dany Targaryen! Tyrion for Sec State and Drogon for Veep. What it will be great Drogon will be just like Selina, it will be an HBO spin off series. Drogon the Duke of Dragonstone. Or is it Duchess/ It's hard to tell with Dragons.
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