The order of royal succession (aka how to give yourself ...)
Jun 30, 2016 6:58:47 GMT -5
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Post by moiaf on Jun 30, 2016 6:58:47 GMT -5
Enjoy!
The order of royal succession (aka how to give yourself a headache) (click on this link if you want to see active links within the text)
anon submitted a really long post (part 2):
The “Right of Conquest” is a bit like the “real” Golden Rule (“he who has the gold, makes the rules”). It’s not a “law”, it just says whoever has the best army and wins the battles and conquers the country and takes the throne is the ruler, “rightful” or not. And anyone who doesn’t accept this ruler will be killed by said army or flamed by dragons, depending. Might makes right, basically.
This was Renly’s argument – the Targaryens had no “right” to Westeros, they conquered it. Robert had no “right” to the throne, he won it with his warhammer when he killed Rhaegar at the Trident. Primogeniture didn’t matter, the fact that Robert had a Targaryen grandmother didn’t matter, he won it with force. And that’s what Renly was intending to do, and probably would have done, had he not been killed by sorcery and his army dispersed.
And Stannis, despite his claims of being Robert’s rightful heir, also intended to win by conquest. Else why would he have attacked King’s Landing? (Notably with a good portion of Renly’s former army.) If inheritance and “right” truly were the end-all-and-be-all, he would have stayed on Dragonstone and tried to make laws from there, a king in exile like Viserys. But he knows how fruitless that is – you need to hold the capital by force of arms to even have a chance of the people accepting you as the one in charge.
So it goes with the Targaryens. While there may be the occasional lord and/or peasant still grumbling about the Baratheon rule and supporting the Targaryens in secret, they don’t count. Dany or Aegon can’t just walk in and be acknowledged as ruler, they would have to conquer Westeros again. And that’s what the original plans were for Dany (with 40,000 Dothraki screamers), and what Aegon is trying to do right now (with the Golden Company).
Therefore there are multiple lines of succession depending on whose claim you follow.
Baratheon (currently on the throne): Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella1
Baratheon (Stannis’s claim): Robert > Stannis > Shireen > Renly3
Targaryen (assuming Aegon is really dead): Aerys II > Rhaegar > Aegon VI > Viserys III > Rhaenys > Daenerys4
Targaryen (assuming Aegon is alive or enough people believe Young Griff is Aegon): Aerys II > Rhaegar > Aegon VI > Viserys III > Rhaenys > Daenerys5
1. Stannis and Renly were stripped of lands and titles by Joffrey; so while Stannis is technically Myrcella’s heir,2 legally she has no heir. Note bastards are not in the line of succession unless legitimized. (So Gendry and Edric et al don’t count, sorry.)
2. It is uncertain if the Baratheon dynasty still follows the extreme agnatic primogeniture of the Targaryens or the standard cognatic primogeniture of (most of) the rest of Westeros, where a daughter comes before an uncle. If it were per the Targaryens, then Stannis and Renly would inherit before Myrcella. Presumably, it was understood it was cognatic, since when Arianne told Myrcella she was queen, she only asked if something had happened to Tommen. But even if it had been agnatic, Stannis had been disinherited well before Arianne’s queenmaking plot, so Myrcella probably wouldn’t have wondered about him anyway.
3. Stannis does not acknowledge Cersei’s children as Robert’s, so Shireen has no heir. Again, Robert’s bastards don’t count, unless Stannis decides to legitimize them, which he won’t. (A bastard ahead of himself, or his daughter? ha no. Although note it’s a question if legitimized bastards go among trueborn children by age/sex, or after the trueborn ones altogether.)
4. The Baratheons are technically Dany’s heirs, but the whole usurpation thing puts that in question. Also IIRC Aerys had them stripped of lands and titles when they rebelled (it’s a king thing), so Dany has no legal heir, unless she forgives and reinstates Stannis and/or Shireen. Note that had they not been disinherited the Baratheons would probably not come before her per agnatic succession, even if they are “collateral relations”, as they inherit from a female (Aerys’s aunt). It depends on if it’s semi-Salic or not, but either way there’s no previous examples in Westeros history for us to judge.
5. Jon Snow, if he is legitimate, would fit between Aegon and Viserys. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, then he’s still a bastard and out of any line of succession unless someone legitimizes him. If he were legitimized, again it’s questionable if he’s before or after Dany, but Targaryen extreme agnatic primogeniture would probably say before. Then again, if Dany is the one legitimizing Jon, she’s not going to do it to put him in front of her in the line of succession, so the Dance of the Dragons law can go blow. Also, remember that was a law established because of Aegon II’s “right of conquest” – if Rhaenyra had won, it would not have existed, and Targaryen inheritance rules would be absolute primogeniture. (By age alone, male or female, as in Dorne.)
edit: this last bit about Rhaenyra is not correct, as new info from TPATQ and TWOIAF has cleared up both her reason for claiming the throne and the fact that the Targaryen “no girls allowed” succession rules are not a law, merely a custom and a choice of various councils. Please see this post for more details.
Note that of course all these lines of succession can again be supplanted by someone else coming in with a bigger and more powerful army. That is, whether Aegon is legitimate or not, whether Tommen holds the throne through Robert’s “right of conquest” or not, dragons trump everything. As does plague (ask Valarr and Matarys Targaryen about that). And as GRRM says, “The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws…. inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.”
Hope that helps!
anon submitted a really long post (part 2):
Assuming “Aegon” is Aegon, R+L=J and Jon is legitimized, is Stannis still the rightful king? I’ve never been quite sure how the Right of Conquest applies. People could argue that Robert is a usurper, but then as Robert’s heir, Stannis’s ascent should be legitimate much like the case of Henry IV usurping Richard II and then Henry V is legitimate. Or so I thought…I’m not an expert anyway. Did the Targaryens lose their lawful claim to the throne when they lose the war? Sure the Targs would see Baratheons as usurpers, but their own kingship was built on the Right of Conquest by Aegon I, isn’t it a bit…wrong of them to dismiss this right when they’re on the receiving end? Since it’s now the Baratheon dynasty, should all Baratheon heirs be placed before Targaryen heirs in the line of succession, like Stannis > Renly > Shireen > Targs even considering the succession law modification after the Dance of the Dragons? And does this highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture apply only to House Targaryen or the Iron Throne in general? The wiki says “placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations”, just how far do the “collateral relations” go? If the Targaryens have no lawful claim to the throne of their own, can the remaining male Targs say they have a better claim than Shireen through the “collateral relations” to the Baratheons? Anyway…Personally I don’t think Dany or any of the Targs have lawful claims unless they win the throne through conquest. What’s your thoughts on the order of the succession?
The “Right of Conquest” is a bit like the “real” Golden Rule (“he who has the gold, makes the rules”). It’s not a “law”, it just says whoever has the best army and wins the battles and conquers the country and takes the throne is the ruler, “rightful” or not. And anyone who doesn’t accept this ruler will be killed by said army or flamed by dragons, depending. Might makes right, basically.
This was Renly’s argument – the Targaryens had no “right” to Westeros, they conquered it. Robert had no “right” to the throne, he won it with his warhammer when he killed Rhaegar at the Trident. Primogeniture didn’t matter, the fact that Robert had a Targaryen grandmother didn’t matter, he won it with force. And that’s what Renly was intending to do, and probably would have done, had he not been killed by sorcery and his army dispersed.
And Stannis, despite his claims of being Robert’s rightful heir, also intended to win by conquest. Else why would he have attacked King’s Landing? (Notably with a good portion of Renly’s former army.) If inheritance and “right” truly were the end-all-and-be-all, he would have stayed on Dragonstone and tried to make laws from there, a king in exile like Viserys. But he knows how fruitless that is – you need to hold the capital by force of arms to even have a chance of the people accepting you as the one in charge.
So it goes with the Targaryens. While there may be the occasional lord and/or peasant still grumbling about the Baratheon rule and supporting the Targaryens in secret, they don’t count. Dany or Aegon can’t just walk in and be acknowledged as ruler, they would have to conquer Westeros again. And that’s what the original plans were for Dany (with 40,000 Dothraki screamers), and what Aegon is trying to do right now (with the Golden Company).
Therefore there are multiple lines of succession depending on whose claim you follow.
Baratheon (currently on the throne): Robert > Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella1
Baratheon (Stannis’s claim): Robert > Stannis > Shireen > Renly3
Targaryen (assuming Aegon is really dead): Aerys II > Rhaegar > Aegon VI > Viserys III > Rhaenys > Daenerys4
Targaryen (assuming Aegon is alive or enough people believe Young Griff is Aegon): Aerys II > Rhaegar > Aegon VI > Viserys III > Rhaenys > Daenerys5
1. Stannis and Renly were stripped of lands and titles by Joffrey; so while Stannis is technically Myrcella’s heir,2 legally she has no heir. Note bastards are not in the line of succession unless legitimized. (So Gendry and Edric et al don’t count, sorry.)
2. It is uncertain if the Baratheon dynasty still follows the extreme agnatic primogeniture of the Targaryens or the standard cognatic primogeniture of (most of) the rest of Westeros, where a daughter comes before an uncle. If it were per the Targaryens, then Stannis and Renly would inherit before Myrcella. Presumably, it was understood it was cognatic, since when Arianne told Myrcella she was queen, she only asked if something had happened to Tommen. But even if it had been agnatic, Stannis had been disinherited well before Arianne’s queenmaking plot, so Myrcella probably wouldn’t have wondered about him anyway.
3. Stannis does not acknowledge Cersei’s children as Robert’s, so Shireen has no heir. Again, Robert’s bastards don’t count, unless Stannis decides to legitimize them, which he won’t. (A bastard ahead of himself, or his daughter? ha no. Although note it’s a question if legitimized bastards go among trueborn children by age/sex, or after the trueborn ones altogether.)
4. The Baratheons are technically Dany’s heirs, but the whole usurpation thing puts that in question. Also IIRC Aerys had them stripped of lands and titles when they rebelled (it’s a king thing), so Dany has no legal heir, unless she forgives and reinstates Stannis and/or Shireen. Note that had they not been disinherited the Baratheons would probably not come before her per agnatic succession, even if they are “collateral relations”, as they inherit from a female (Aerys’s aunt). It depends on if it’s semi-Salic or not, but either way there’s no previous examples in Westeros history for us to judge.
5. Jon Snow, if he is legitimate, would fit between Aegon and Viserys. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, then he’s still a bastard and out of any line of succession unless someone legitimizes him. If he were legitimized, again it’s questionable if he’s before or after Dany, but Targaryen extreme agnatic primogeniture would probably say before. Then again, if Dany is the one legitimizing Jon, she’s not going to do it to put him in front of her in the line of succession, so the Dance of the Dragons law can go blow. Also, remember that was a law established because of Aegon II’s “right of conquest” – if Rhaenyra had won, it would not have existed, and Targaryen inheritance rules would be absolute primogeniture. (By age alone, male or female, as in Dorne.)
edit: this last bit about Rhaenyra is not correct, as new info from TPATQ and TWOIAF has cleared up both her reason for claiming the throne and the fact that the Targaryen “no girls allowed” succession rules are not a law, merely a custom and a choice of various councils. Please see this post for more details.
Note that of course all these lines of succession can again be supplanted by someone else coming in with a bigger and more powerful army. That is, whether Aegon is legitimate or not, whether Tommen holds the throne through Robert’s “right of conquest” or not, dragons trump everything. As does plague (ask Valarr and Matarys Targaryen about that). And as GRRM says, “The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws…. inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.”
Hope that helps!
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