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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 11:03:18 GMT -5
I'm reminded of how much I hate Cersei. Everything that's happened is her fault. Cersei and Jaime's getting caught screwing in the tower was just the catalyst that propelled the train forward ... the engine was already running if you remember. Littlefinger convincing Lysa to kill Jon Arryn is really what I consider "everything that's happened is his/her fault" in the story. His chaos theory started the pot boiling and Robert and Ned were really just pawns in that as Littlefinger knew Robert would get Ned involved. So yes, it's Cersei and her incestuous relationship with Jaime that caused Jon Arryn's death (because he knew the truth) but only indirectly after someone else started the ball rolling. I know, I know, it's LF's fault for his need to gain more power obviously. I just believe that if there was no incestuous relationship to begin with, then LF wouldn't have been able to gain as much power as he did.
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 11:12:10 GMT -5
Cersei and Jaime's getting caught screwing in the tower was just the catalyst that propelled the train forward ... the engine was already running if you remember. Littlefinger convincing Lysa to kill Jon Arryn is really what I consider "everything that's happened is his/her fault" in the story. His chaos theory started the pot boiling and Robert and Ned were really just pawns in that as Littlefinger knew Robert would get Ned involved. So yes, it's Cersei and her incestuous relationship with Jaime that caused Jon Arryn's death (because he knew the truth) but only indirectly after someone else started the ball rolling. I know, I know, it's LF's fault for his need to gain more power obviously. I just believe that if there was no incestuous relationship to begin with, then LF wouldn't have been able to gain as much power as he did. Well we haven't even met Littlefinger yet in the show, so at this point I completely agree with you it's Cersei who is the main one to blame. I don't think Jaime would have shoved Bran out of that window without Cersei's look and fear in that moment. He asked how old Bran was and looked at Cersei as if he were beseeching her not to force it. They're twins though, so I'm guessing they knew what the other was thinking and wanting in that moment. I have to blame them both in Episode 1!
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Post by Maesteress on Jul 17, 2016 11:33:56 GMT -5
I never noticed the way Benjen said (paraphrasing) "you should father sons, so you know what that means" that sounded really sad. I'm still holding out hope that he still may..... (Well, Jon at least...poor Benjen) I couldn't expect her to enlighten about her husband's infidelity I agree....but she never makes Jon feel loved or an actual part of the family and it's not his "fault". Her displeasure and anger should have been aimed at Ned, not Jon. And she's pretty awful to him (The scene where he's just trying to say goodbye to Bran and she tells him to leave; and her disgusted looks do not go unnoticed by Jon). I think motherhood is what has me so against her. I cannot even fathom treating a child like that...before I had a kid, I might have felt differently, I don't know. Don't get me wrong - she is a terrific character. But for me, she's a great character to despise.
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Post by stannisforking299al on Jul 17, 2016 12:42:42 GMT -5
Love this idea people ok, roberts arrival has to be one of the most idealistic scenes in the show, and one of the best soundtracks, which also lay the groundwork for both stannis' and Joffreys themes. Oh and that slap. Perfect
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Post by stannisforking299al on Jul 17, 2016 12:44:20 GMT -5
Benjen's like, "You're always welcome in the Night's Watch, Jon." Jon's like, "Okay." And Benjen's like, "Nah, it's actually pretty shitty. I know I just said you should join but maybe wait a bit." You know, they did kind of kill Jon, so maybe he was right?
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 12:48:50 GMT -5
Love this idea people ok, roberts arrival has to be one of the most idealistic scenes in the show, and one of the best soundtracks, which also lay the groundwork for both stannis' and Joffreys themes. Oh and that slap. Perfect Joffrey doesn't get slapped in Episode 1 though, that's coming next in episode 2 (we watch that one Wednesday 7/20) so be sure you save the gif so we can enjoy it again there.
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Post by stannisforking299al on Jul 17, 2016 13:05:24 GMT -5
Love this idea people ok, roberts arrival has to be one of the most idealistic scenes in the show, and one of the best soundtracks, which also lay the groundwork for both stannis' and Joffreys themes. Oh and that slap. Perfect Joffrey doesn't get slapped in Episode 1 though, that's coming next in episode 2 (we watch that one Wednesday 7/20) so be sure you save the gif so we can enjoy it again there. I thought the slap was ep 1? As you can see, I am yet to rewatch. Are you doing this all the way till 6x10? If so, count me in!
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 13:19:42 GMT -5
Joffrey doesn't get slapped in Episode 1 though, that's coming next in episode 2 (we watch that one Wednesday 7/20) so be sure you save the gif so we can enjoy it again there. I thought the slap was ep 1? As you can see, I am yet to rewatch. Are you doing this all the way till 6x10? If so, count me in! Yes we're doing the ENTIRE 6 Seasons for the next 30 weeks! Here's the post where I outline the dates for Season 1. We'll follow it immediately with Season 2 and so on and so forth. There's a corresponding forum for each episode as well. Watch Dates & Forum posts: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/4768
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 13:36:37 GMT -5
I couldn't expect her to enlighten about her husband's infidelity I agree....but she never makes Jon feel loved or an actual part of the family and it's not his "fault". Her displeasure and anger should have been aimed at Ned, not Jon. And she's pretty awful to him (The scene where he's just trying to say goodbye to Bran and she tells him to leave; and her disgusted looks do not go unnoticed by Jon). I think motherhood is what has me so against her. I cannot even fathom treating a child like that...before I had a kid, I might have felt differently, I don't know. Don't get me wrong - she is a terrific character. But for me, she's a great character to despise. Jon was not part of her family, she had no obligations towards him. None. She was a highborn lady, he was her husband's bastard, his mere existence was a dishonor to her. I think it's problematic and a little bit unfair to apply real life moral standards to this situation. Catelyn never liked Jon, she could never swallow her pride, she couldn't even force herself to be nice to him. But Jon was not Cinderella and Cat was not the evil stepmother, she didn't actively seek ways to be cruel to him, she avoided and ignored him most of the times. Jon still recieved the same privileges as his trueborn siblings did, food, clothing, education, freedom. For a bastard in Westeros, he had a pretty great life. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was cold and distant, but it wasn't evil, we have no reason to believe that she was ever cruel to him or that she abused him in any way. She simply did not love him and she never tried to hide her feelings. And let's not forget that from Cat's perspective, Jon posed a legitimate threat to her children's inheritance rights.
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 13:49:25 GMT -5
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 14:05:53 GMT -5
I agree....but she never makes Jon feel loved or an actual part of the family and it's not his "fault". Her displeasure and anger should have been aimed at Ned, not Jon. And she's pretty awful to him (The scene where he's just trying to say goodbye to Bran and she tells him to leave; and her disgusted looks do not go unnoticed by Jon). I think motherhood is what has me so against her. I cannot even fathom treating a child like that...before I had a kid, I might have felt differently, I don't know. Don't get me wrong - she is a terrific character. But for me, she's a great character to despise. Jon was not part of her family, she had no obligations towards him. None. She was a highborn lady, he was her husband's bastard, his mere existence was a dishonor to her. I think it's problematic and a little bit unfair to apply real life moral standards to this situation. Catelyn never liked Jon, she could never swallow her pride, she couldn't even force herself to be nice to him. But Jon was not Cinderella and Cat was not the evil stepmother, she didn't actively seek ways to be cruel to him, she avoided and ignored him most of the times. Jon still recieved the same privileges as his trueborn siblings did, food, clothing, education, freedom. For a bastard in Westeros, he had a pretty great life. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was cold and distant, but it wasn't evil, we have no reason to believe that she was ever cruel to him or that she abused him in any way. She simply did not love him and she never tried to hide her feelings. And let's not forget that from Cat's perspective, Jon posed a legitimate threat to her children's inheritance rights. I really agree it's difficult to try and force our modern social moral standards to this situation and to hate Catelyn for it. I do empathize with those who disliked her for how she treated Jon though. She yelled at him to get out later on in Bran's room when he came to say Goodbye, don't forget that part, which was pretty harsh. I have never blamed Catelyn for her reaction to Jon, nor do I blame Ned for hiding it from her who Jon really was all along. They did what they had to do (or thought they had to do), and later we hear from Catelyn that she carries a lot of guilt for despising Jon and wishing him dead when he was a baby and caught the pox. I think it's a very human reaction to resent a child that was brought into your home not as a typical modern-day step child from a previous marriage, but as a child supposedly born from you cheating on your spouse. Would any of us be able to love a child forced into our home by a cheating wife or husband the same way? It's easy to judge when it's not you yourself in that position.
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Post by Maesteress on Jul 17, 2016 14:14:13 GMT -5
I think it's problematic and a little bit unfair to apply real life moral standards to this situation I think everyone relates to stories and characters based on their own experiences/dreams/desires, though. We don't have to love every character. We don't have to loathe the "bad guy". Some people relate to the bad guy more than the good guy - doesn't make them bad people. I know actual people like Cat. Yes, in real life. In fact, I know one who did the exact same thing to her step kid. Makes her character MORE real for me (this isn't a BAD thing!). She's a fantastically written character and I love that LSH is the epitome of everything she has been trying to repress as a "highborn" lady. Some will see her absolute devotion to her children as noble and great; some will see it as self-centered and closed minded. None of these opinions are wrong ones - it's all in how each of us relate to the character based on our own experiences and feelings.
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Post by Maesteress on Jul 17, 2016 14:16:46 GMT -5
I really agree it's difficult to try and force our modern social moral standards to this situation and to hate Catelyn for it. Ok, you guys have me confused? What modern moral standard is being forced on the characters? I think I lost y'all somewhere....
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2016 14:22:25 GMT -5
I really agree it's difficult to try and force our modern social moral standards to this situation and to hate Catelyn for it. Ok, you guys have me confused? What modern moral standard is being forced on the characters? I think I lost y'all somewhere.... I think we have a different perspective in our culture now about how 'bastards' should be treated is what I was taking this for in comparison. We don't call children that born out of wedlock and we don't treat them any differently but in the times Westeros was set, it was a much bigger issue particularly for noble families. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was likely similar to many of us would feel regardless of modern standards regarding bastard born children and I agree with you that it's not wrong to dislike her at all. It doesn't make her a bad person either. There's often a lot of criticism of Catelyn as a character, much of it above and beyond how she treated Jon too. I try to see both sides of the coin in that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 14:26:44 GMT -5
I really agree it's difficult to try and force our modern social moral standards to this situation and to hate Catelyn for it. I do empathize with those who disliked her for how she treated Jon though. She yelled at him to get out later on in Bran's room when he came to say Goodbye, don't forget that part, which was pretty harsh. I have never blamed Catelyn for her reaction to Jon, nor do I blame Ned for hiding it from her who Jon really was all along. They did what they had to do (or thought they had to do), and later we hear from Catelyn that she carries a lot of guilt for despising Jon and wishing him dead when he was a baby and caught the pox. I think it's a very human reaction to resent a child that was brought into your home not as a typical modern-day step child from a previous marriage, but as a child supposedly born from you cheating on your spouse. Would any of us be able to love a child forced into our home by a cheating wife or husband the same way? It's easy to judge when it's not you yourself in that position. She said something much worse in the books, but I think this should be treated as a seperated incident and not the norm. Cat hadn't slept for days, she was under immense mental and physical stress, she was exhausted, she was grieving - and she said something that she probably wouldn't have said under normal circumstances. It was a vile thing to say to a teenage boy, but this was not the way Cat usually talked to Jon, it was a unique situation caused by stress and grief. Catelyn is my favourite character, but Jon is also among my favourites. I don't think her treatment of him makes her a bad person, or someone worthy of hate, it makes her flawed and human, and I love her for it. It would have been so easy for Martin to write Catelyn as the perfect motherly stereotype, who accepted Jon into her family with open arms, but he didn't go there and I'm grateful for it. He made her deeply flawed, somewhat arrogant and resentful, but also proud, caring and smart with a genuinely good heart, someone who embodies the Tully words Family, Duty, Honor. In my opinion she is the most complex of Martin's creations. I think it's sad that so many people hate her purely based on her treatment of Jon. There is so much more to this character than just that.
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