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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 18:43:34 GMT -5
I wonder if Varys was still counting on Viserys to come with the Dothraki hoard. I mean there was no way knowing that khal Drogo would kill Viserys. Which still makes me question some of Varys' motives. Had he just intended for a Targaryen to rule? Or did he have something different in mind? Was he already looking into Dany and planned to get rid of Viserys' in some other way? I don't know. I've always wondered about Varys' true motives as well, especially in the book when fAegon was in play as well. I sort of think maybe he was juggling all the potential Targaryen restoration candidates in play to find out which one would end up working out the best. Maybe sending Viserys and Dany out in the wild with the Dothraki was a test of sorts? If they survive out there and manage to actually get the Dothraki 'tamed' then they are true conquerors like their ancestors. I also think it's possible Illyrio has been keeping Varys well informed of what an ass Viserys really is and so Varys turned his attention to Daenerys and the marriage to Khal Drogo as a better option. No one could have predicted Daenerys would hatch those eggs though, nor that she would actually end up being a true Targaryen and not one of the defective terrible ones. Perhaps fAegon was simply "Plan B" if Viserys and Daenerys ended up not working out. I'm sure that once Varys found out how awful Viserys was treating Dany and she bore a son to Drogo (if Drogo hadn't died too) he would have found a way for Viserys to be removed anyways. *edit: fAegon conveniently being left out of the show simply reinforces my suspicion that he was just a fake back up plan who will meet some sort of untimely end in the book once Varys is supporting Daenerys fully. I disagree with the bolded. I think it's quite the opposite, in the books anyway. I'm onboard with the "fAegon is Illyrio's son" theory (maybe even Varys' nephew? though that's a bit tinfoil-y) so I think that Viserys and Dany were his cover plan. Hence the reason he was so willing to send his little birds to have them killed in season/book 1. FAegon's absense from the show is just a simplification IMO. Without the rich expositional backstory the book provides, the general audience would definitely be like "Aegon who? What's a Blackfyre?" As for the assassination attempt organised by Varys, I think that's just an oversight in which D&D were trying to adapt the first book and not considering any plot simplifying for future seasons. As far as they knew back in season one, they weren't going to cut fAegon IMO so they left Varys' intentions more ambiguous.
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Post by Envie on Aug 1, 2016 18:51:38 GMT -5
I've always wondered about Varys' true motives as well, especially in the book when fAegon was in play as well. I sort of think maybe he was juggling all the potential Targaryen restoration candidates in play to find out which one would end up working out the best. Maybe sending Viserys and Dany out in the wild with the Dothraki was a test of sorts? If they survive out there and manage to actually get the Dothraki 'tamed' then they are true conquerors like their ancestors. I also think it's possible Illyrio has been keeping Varys well informed of what an ass Viserys really is and so Varys turned his attention to Daenerys and the marriage to Khal Drogo as a better option. No one could have predicted Daenerys would hatch those eggs though, nor that she would actually end up being a true Targaryen and not one of the defective terrible ones. Perhaps fAegon was simply "Plan B" if Viserys and Daenerys ended up not working out. I'm sure that once Varys found out how awful Viserys was treating Dany and she bore a son to Drogo (if Drogo hadn't died too) he would have found a way for Viserys to be removed anyways. *edit: fAegon conveniently being left out of the show simply reinforces my suspicion that he was just a fake back up plan who will meet some sort of untimely end in the book once Varys is supporting Daenerys fully. I disagree with the bolded. I think it's quite the opposite, in the books anyway. I'm onboard with the "fAegon is Illyrio's son" theory (maybe even Varys' nephew? though that's a bit tinfoil-y) so I think that Viserys and Dany were his cover plan. Hence the reason he was so willing to send his little birds to have them killed in season/book 1. FAegon's absense from the show is just a simplification IMO. Without the rich expositional backstory the book provides, the general audience would definitely be like "Aegon who? What's a Blackfyre?" As for the assassination attempt organised by Varys, I think that's just an oversight in which D&D were trying to adapt the first book and not considering any plot simplifying for future seasons. As far as they knew back in season one, they weren't going to cut fAegon IMO so they left Varys' intentions more ambiguous. I'm completely ok with it being the other way around in the books as you said. The fact that Aegon was far more well prepared and landed first in Westeros definitely supports your take on it that he was the main player they were hoping for and Viserys/Daenerys were the backup plan. I still think that likely has everything to do with Illyrio realizing (and thus Varys) early on - well before the Khal Drogo marriage, that Viserys was going to make a useless king to promote taking back Westeros... he was his father's son through and through at a much younger age than his Father started doing terrible things. As for the inconsistencies on the show, I'm still not sure yet what that's all about. It may be entirely possible Varys organized the assassination attempts as fakes but that seems a bit tinfoil-y too so I don't know. As you said, they may not have made all their plot decisions until after they started Season 1. Maybe they were trying to get final end-game answers out of George before deciding if Aegon should be included in the show.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 1, 2016 20:18:57 GMT -5
When Varys first sends the message to assassinate Dany, I think he knew Robert would send other messages too. If Varys controlled the messenger he could control the results. I think they were watching Dany after her marriage to see what would happen with the Dothraki and Viserys. I don't think they were surprised when Khal Drogo crowned the last dragon. I do think Dany and her resilience won them to her. No matter what everyone has thrown at her, she's managed to pull through. Her love for Drogo took what could have been a nightmare and turned to the greatest learning experience she could have had.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 1, 2016 20:35:25 GMT -5
I don't think D and D ever intended to include fAegon. But there may still have been some retconning going on surrounding Varys's motives. The closest we have to a definitive answer at this point is what Tyrion said to Dany in 508, that he suspects all the attempts on her and her brother's lives as they were growing up and moving from city to city around Essos, were deliberately incompetent. So basically Varys was assigned by Robert with various attempts on their lives and he botched them deliberately again and again. He wanted them to live but he wasn't going to argue against Robert or anything, so he took the middle route. Which I think is probably true to some extent in the books too. That wineseller plot seemed needlessly elaborate, even with no weapons being allowed in Vaes Dothrak. So it stands to reason imo that it was never meant to succeed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 4:19:12 GMT -5
When Varys first sends the message to assassinate Dany, I think he knew Robert would send other messages too. If Varys controlled the messenger he could control the results. I think they were watching Dany after her marriage to see what would happen with the Dothraki and Viserys. I don't think they were surprised when Khal Drogo crowned the last dragon. I do think Dany and her resilience won them to her. No matter what everyone has thrown at her, she's managed to pull through. Her love for Drogo took what could have been a nightmare and turned to the greatest learning experience she could have had. I don't think D and D ever intended to include fAegon. But there may still have been some retconning going on surrounding Varys's motives. The closest we have to a definitive answer at this point is what Tyrion said to Dany in 508, that he suspects all the attempts on her and her brother's lives as they were growing up and moving from city to city around Essos, were deliberately incompetent. So basically Varys was assigned by Robert with various attempts on their lives and he botched them deliberately again and again. He wanted them to live but he wasn't going to argue against Robert or anything, so he took the middle route. Which I think is probably true to some extent in the books too. That wineseller plot seemed needlessly elaborate, even with no weapons being allowed in Vaes Dothrak. So it stands to reason imo that it was never meant to succeed. The failure of the wine assassination was entirely dependent on Jorah's feelings for Dany, and unless he outright told Varys in his messages I don't see how he would have known Jorah would save her. In fact I think it's quite tinfoil-y to suggest Varys knew about Jorah's affections all along. So if he hadn't stepped in, Dany and her child would be dead alongside Viserys. That said, we'll probably never hear about it again so it's best to just move on. But I'm getting ahead of myself; it's only episode 5!
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Post by moiaf on Aug 2, 2016 6:51:28 GMT -5
When Varys first sends the message to assassinate Dany, I think he knew Robert would send other messages too. If Varys controlled the messenger he could control the results. I think they were watching Dany after her marriage to see what would happen with the Dothraki and Viserys. I don't think they were surprised when Khal Drogo crowned the last dragon. I do think Dany and her resilience won them to her. No matter what everyone has thrown at her, she's managed to pull through. Her love for Drogo took what could have been a nightmare and turned to the greatest learning experience she could have had. I don't think D and D ever intended to include fAegon. But there may still have been some retconning going on surrounding Varys's motives. The closest we have to a definitive answer at this point is what Tyrion said to Dany in 508, that he suspects all the attempts on her and her brother's lives as they were growing up and moving from city to city around Essos, were deliberately incompetent. So basically Varys was assigned by Robert with various attempts on their lives and he botched them deliberately again and again. He wanted them to live but he wasn't going to argue against Robert or anything, so he took the middle route. Which I think is probably true to some extent in the books too. That wineseller plot seemed needlessly elaborate, even with no weapons being allowed in Vaes Dothrak. So it stands to reason imo that it was never meant to succeed. The failure of the wine assassination was entirely dependent on Jorah's feelings for Dany, and unless he outright told Varys in his messages I don't see how he would have known Jorah would save her. In fact I think it's quite tinfoil-y to suggest Varys knew about Jorah's affections all along. So if he hadn't stepped in, Dany and her child would be dead alongside Viserys. That said, we'll probably never hear about it again so it's best to just move on. But I'm getting ahead of myself; it's only episode 5! Well, Varys could have sent a message to Jorah warning him that Robert had hired assassins to kill Dany at Vaes Dothrak. This would have had Jorah on high alert. He would have been expecting an attempt on Dany's life at any moment and would have been suspicious of any stranger trying to ingratiate themselves with Dany. I think it's quite possible that Varys both sent the assassin and warned Jorah the assassin was coming.
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Post by Envie on Aug 2, 2016 12:52:07 GMT -5
The failure of the wine assassination was entirely dependent on Jorah's feelings for Dany, and unless he outright told Varys in his messages I don't see how he would have known Jorah would save her. In fact I think it's quite tinfoil-y to suggest Varys knew about Jorah's affections all along. So if he hadn't stepped in, Dany and her child would be dead alongside Viserys. That said, we'll probably never hear about it again so it's best to just move on. But I'm getting ahead of myself; it's only episode 5! Well, Varys could have sent a message to Jorah warning him that Robert had hired assassins to kill Dany at Vaes Dothrak. This would have had Jorah on high alert. He would have been expecting an attempt on Dany's life at any moment and would have been suspicious of any stranger trying to ingratiate themselves with Dany. I think it's quite possible that Varys both sent the assassin and warned Jorah the assassin was coming. Oh I like this idea and have never thought of that. Varys is just that good at the manipulation game. He could have warned Jorah ahead of time, knowing already (maybe by how Jorah talks about her in the messages?) that he's starting to grow attached to her and thus Varys knew he had an easy way to keep up the assassination ruse going without actually putting Dany in a lot of danger. But as @fatherofdragons said, we may never know on that account for sure and it does sound a bit tin-foil like to think Varys was going through elaborate set-ups when honestly he could have just lied to Robert all along and had letters forged and never actually tried to assassinate her. Robert wouldn't have known the difference though perhaps Littlefinger would. We'll talk a lot more about this when we get to this part of the story in the show I'm sure!
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Post by Envie on Aug 2, 2016 15:05:23 GMT -5
I don't think D and D ever intended to include fAegon. But there may still have been some retconning going on surrounding Varys's motives. The closest we have to a definitive answer at this point is what Tyrion said to Dany in 508, that he suspects all the attempts on her and her brother's lives as they were growing up and moving from city to city around Essos, were deliberately incompetent. So basically Varys was assigned by Robert with various attempts on their lives and he botched them deliberately again and again. He wanted them to live but he wasn't going to argue against Robert or anything, so he took the middle route. Which I think is probably true to some extent in the books too. That wineseller plot seemed needlessly elaborate, even with no weapons being allowed in Vaes Dothrak. So it stands to reason imo that it was never meant to succeed. Meant to multi-quote earlier and forgot! Your reminder of what Tyrion says later is definitely a good clue too about how Varys may have purposely tried to keep the assassinations from working. It's also possible he wasn't entirely sure about Daenerys yet back then. Would she end up being her Father but with dragons? Bad idea. They already knew Viserys was a lose, so after Drogo crowns him, they have keep an eye on Dany. This early in the show we don't really know much more than Robert is obsessed with having her killed and Ned refuses to go along with it. The scene where he finally goes off on Robert and says: "Then we're no better than the mad king" when Robert yells it's fear and blood that keeps the seven kingdoms in line is brilliant and so true. Robert hates being king, he only liked the challenge of fighting a war to become the king. There's some telling warning here for all future kings in the story as well. Becoming king and being king are two entirely different things. In the case of Daenerys, being a conqueror doesn't make her a great ruler and that's the criticism her character often gets when I read arguments about it. Varys knows this and so did everyone in that small council who spoke out in favor of having Daenerys assassinated. Her coming to Westeros with a Dothraki army and three dragons (not yet known or born at this point though) would be a devastating massacre and still could be, we just don't know what direction it's going to go until she gets there! I do strongly believe Dany has the right team backing her up to keep her conqueror ancestry in line and she actually trusts and listens to Tyrion so I think she's going to be ok.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 15:18:52 GMT -5
I don't think D and D ever intended to include fAegon. But there may still have been some retconning going on surrounding Varys's motives. The closest we have to a definitive answer at this point is what Tyrion said to Dany in 508, that he suspects all the attempts on her and her brother's lives as they were growing up and moving from city to city around Essos, were deliberately incompetent. So basically Varys was assigned by Robert with various attempts on their lives and he botched them deliberately again and again. He wanted them to live but he wasn't going to argue against Robert or anything, so he took the middle route. Which I think is probably true to some extent in the books too. That wineseller plot seemed needlessly elaborate, even with no weapons being allowed in Vaes Dothrak. So it stands to reason imo that it was never meant to succeed. Meant to multi-quote earlier and forgot! Your reminder of what Tyrion says later is definitely a good clue too about how Varys may have purposely tried to keep the assassinations from working. It's also possible he wasn't entirely sure about Daenerys yet back then. Would she end up being her Father but with dragons? Bad idea. They already knew Viserys was a lose, so after Drogo crowns him, they have keep an eye on Dany. This early in the show we don't really know much more than Robert is obsessed with having her killed and Ned refuses to go along with it. The scene where he finally goes off on Robert and says: "Then we're no better than the mad king" when Robert yells it's fear and blood that keeps the seven kingdoms in line is brilliant and so true. Robert hates being king, he only liked the challenge of fighting a war to become the king. There's some telling warning here for all future kings in the story as well. Becoming king and being king are two entirely different things. In the case of Daenerys, being a conqueror doesn't make her a great ruler and that's the criticism her character often gets when I read arguments about it. Varys knows this and so did everyone in that small council who spoke out in favor of having Daenerys assassinated. Her coming to Westeros with a Dothraki army and three dragons (not yet known or born at this point though) would be a devastating massacre and still could be, we just don't know what direction it's going to go until she gets there! I do strongly believe Dany has the right team backing her up to keep her conqueror ancestry in line and she actually trusts and listens to Tyrion so I think she's going to be ok. Well he enjoyed fighting, but he never specifically fought against Aerys and Rhaegar to become king or usurp the throne. He fought to free Lyanna and avenge the Starks. He was just the preferable option to Tywin becoming king.
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Post by Envie on Aug 2, 2016 15:53:53 GMT -5
Meant to multi-quote earlier and forgot! Your reminder of what Tyrion says later is definitely a good clue too about how Varys may have purposely tried to keep the assassinations from working. It's also possible he wasn't entirely sure about Daenerys yet back then. Would she end up being her Father but with dragons? Bad idea. They already knew Viserys was a lose, so after Drogo crowns him, they have keep an eye on Dany. This early in the show we don't really know much more than Robert is obsessed with having her killed and Ned refuses to go along with it. The scene where he finally goes off on Robert and says: "Then we're no better than the mad king" when Robert yells it's fear and blood that keeps the seven kingdoms in line is brilliant and so true. Robert hates being king, he only liked the challenge of fighting a war to become the king. There's some telling warning here for all future kings in the story as well. Becoming king and being king are two entirely different things. In the case of Daenerys, being a conqueror doesn't make her a great ruler and that's the criticism her character often gets when I read arguments about it. Varys knows this and so did everyone in that small council who spoke out in favor of having Daenerys assassinated. Her coming to Westeros with a Dothraki army and three dragons (not yet known or born at this point though) would be a devastating massacre and still could be, we just don't know what direction it's going to go until she gets there! I do strongly believe Dany has the right team backing her up to keep her conqueror ancestry in line and she actually trusts and listens to Tyrion so I think she's going to be ok. Well he enjoyed fighting, but he never specifically fought against Aerys and Rhaegar to become king or usurp the throne. He fought to free Lyanna and avenge the Starks. He was just the preferable option to Tywin becoming king. Well that's probably a small point to argue over in a way. Avenging Ned's Father and brother being burned alive by Aerys in court was also just as much a part of Robert's motivation to start the war too. He hated all the Targaryens for what they'd done to those he loved. Also, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Aerys order the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon both in his craziness and Jon Arryn refused the order and raised his banners? One could argue it was Jon Arryn who went to war with Aerys to defend Ned/Robert and Robert's desire to smash Rhaegar because of Lyanna. I think the becoming king part was an afterthought to Robert for sure.
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Post by izzue on Aug 2, 2016 22:09:27 GMT -5
Hey izzue those were some fantastic moments of subtle symbolism and foreshadowing you pointed out in your summary -- would you like to take a stab at writing a full episode 5 symbolism essay as myself and moiaf have done? I have notes but you caught some nice things I hadn't considered and I wont' be able to write one up until tomorrow when I'm off all day. Oh and it was Jaime's own personal Lannister guard who stabbed Ned through the back of his leg, not the City Watch. They don't betray Ned until the end of this season (paid by Littlefinger). I did love that look of disappointment and anger Jaime gave just before he walked over and punched out that Lannister guard for doing such a 'dishonorable' thing ... which @fatherofdragons pointed out too is a fantastic parallel to how Ned's friend Howland Reed attacked Arthur Dayne from behind as well. Maybe Father of Dragons would do a symbolism/parallel/foreshadowing essay? I'm trying to get more of you involved in that part of the project. Oh, didn't realize it was Jaime's guard, just knew it was a guard - I watch half of those fight scenes with my hands in front of my eyes and just sort of peek around from time to time! Wow, thank you for your confidence, Envie! I am flattered . . . would that I had the time! A moot point, I guess, since I've just now gotten back online almost 24 hours after I made that post! :-/ My life-long hope has been to one day be 'caught-up'! I actually thought I was catching up with the re-watch, but now unexpected company is coming in tomorrow, so I'm behind again. Aarrrgh!
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Post by dje on Aug 3, 2016 8:03:57 GMT -5
Another solid episode, I loved the Jaime/Ned fight, although IIRC, he and Ned didn't fight in the books, Jaime just had his men killed.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 3, 2016 11:51:26 GMT -5
I forgot to mentioned that I'd forgotten how fucking batshit crazy Lysa is/was.
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Post by day dreamer on Aug 3, 2016 12:16:04 GMT -5
I finally got around to watching this. Solid episode. I forgot this was the one with Theon's dick. Bran and Maester Luwin going over the houses was my favorite scene. Followed by Arya mouthing off to the guards, and Varys and Littlefinger's amusing pissing match. God, I hated Jaime so much back then.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 3, 2016 14:30:24 GMT -5
I finally got around to watching this. Solid episode. I forgot this was the one with Theon's dick. If it was Friends that's what the episode would be called.
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