The House of the Undying

izzue
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The House of the Undying Jul 11, 2016 17:24:18 GMT -5 stannisforking299al and khaella like this

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Post by izzue on Jul 11, 2016 17:24:18 GMT -5

For me, the House of the Undying is one of the more mystifying sections of the books (ACOK, Daenerys IV, Chpt. 48). It's a long, complicated chapter, and there may only be one small part of it, one vision, that interests you. Please do not feel compelled to wade through this whole looooooong OP before you latch onto an item and respond, if you like.

Despite the advice of Ser Jorah and her three blood riders, Dany chooses to enter the HOTU. Pyat Pree tells her she must enter alone, that "the front way leads in, but never out again", that if she values her soul she will follow his instructions to always take the door to her right and, where there is a stairwell, always to go up, never down. Dany asks if she should then do the opposite when leaving, but Pree tells her, "Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right."

He tells her "Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers . . . may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber. . . . When you come to the chamber of the Undying, be patient. Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them. Listen well, and write each word upon your heart."

Before she enters, Pree has her drink just enough of the thick blue shade of the evening to "unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you." Dany enters with Drogon.

Each vision can be viewed as separate and apart from the others, and each is numbered for ease of reference in your discussion. Which vision(s) stands out for you, what meanings do you find?

#1 A beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men with rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands crawled over her, raping her

#2 A feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood . . . In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

#3 A room she remembered with a lemon tree outside the window. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. Old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are. Come. Come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." . . . Dany wanted to run and kiss his hand, but then she thought, "He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago." She backed away and ran.

#4 Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes."

#5 A man who looked like Viserys, had the same hair but was taller and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a King?" "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond his door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind.

#6 In still another dank stone chamber the door opposite was round, shaped like an open mouth, and Pyat Pree stood outside in the grass beneath the trees. "Can it be that the Undying are done with you so soon?" he asked in disbelief when he saw her. She was confused, said she'd walked for hours and still not found them. "You have taken a wrong turn. Come, I will lead you." Plat Pree held out his hand but Dany hesitated. There was a door to her right, still closed. "That's not the way," Pyat Pree said firmly, his blue lips prim with disapproval. "The Undying Ones will not wait forever." Dany remembered what Pree had said before she entered, "Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them." Pyat Pree said "Stubborn child. You will be lost, and never found." When Dany walked away he screeched, "No, no, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee," and his face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike. Stairs opened and she left.

#7 A great hall with richly robed people, and a kingly man in rich robes welcomes her to "come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth." A woman beside him says they have awaited Dany for a long time but knew that she would come. "A thousand years we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way." A knight in emerald armor said, "We have knowledge to share with you, and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered." Then Drogon flew from her shoulder to the great door, doubt seized Dany and she was finally able to lift the heavy door and leave.

#8 Dany finally reaches the room where the 'real' Undying are, merely shadows, unbreathing, with a corrupted blue heart floating over them. When Dany asks for the gift of truth, she hears their whispers, "mother of dragons, child of three . . .three heads has the dragon. Mother of dragons, child of storm . . .three fires must you light, one for life and one for death and one to love. Three mounts must you ride, one to bed and one to dread and one to love. Three treasons will you know, once for blood and once for gold and once for love." Then she sees visions in her head, floating faster and faster, as follows:

#9 Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth

#10 A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him

#11 Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and as he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

#12 Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of blue-eyed king who cast no shadow

#13 A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd

#14 From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

#15 Her Silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars

#16 A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly

#17 A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

#18 Shadows swirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible

#19 A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door

#20 Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow

#21 Behind a silver horse a bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged

#22 A white lion ran through grass taller than a man

#23 Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed

#24 Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her Silver, riding like the wind. "Mother," they cried. "Mother, Mother." They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them. . .

Then there was a scream of fury and black wings buffeted her round the head. The visions ceased and the Undying were all around her, attacking, and she could not move. But she was saved by Drogon, who burned them, and then she and Drogon escaped into the sunlight, whereupon Pyat Pree tried to attack Dany with a knife, but Drogon and her blood riders killed him.

moiaf
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The House of the Undying Jul 11, 2016 18:09:08 GMT -5 izzue, khaella, and 1 more like this

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Post by moiaf on Jul 11, 2016 18:09:08 GMT -5

I love the House of the Undying, it truly is one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. A few years back while we were all still in Westeros. org we were doing a Dany re-read and I was assigned this chapter, I'll post my review which includes my interpretation of each vision. Also, I'm working on another essay based this time on the Undying themselves.

Daenerys IV - ACoK

The House of the Undying

SUMMARY

We begin the chapter with Dany’s arrival at the House of the Undying. After trying and failing to gather support from the Pureborn and Xaro she now seeks the help of the Undying in order to help her conquer Westeros. The House is nothing like Dany imagined instead of encountering a beautiful building to match the spenders of Qarth, she encounters a decaying ruin. The House is so rounded by black trees with blue leaves, from these trees the Undying make the shades of the evening drink that turns their lips blue.

She is warned by Xaro, Jorah, and her blood riders not to go in and even Drogon is disquieted by the place. However, Dany dismisses there concerns, she know that the only way she can speak to the Undying is if she enters the House by herself. Pyat Pree appears and leads Dany towards the HOTU. When they reach the entrance they turn towards the back, Pyat tells her the the front entrance only allows people in, not out. As they walk towards the back door he gives her strict instructions and a warning she must follow, should she ever wish to ever leave the HOTU. She can only ever take the first door to the right and can only ever go up.

Pyat tells her what she might see through the open doors which she cannot enter: “Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go.” Once they reach the back door she is met there by a tiny dwarf who offers Dany a glass of shades of the evening, the warlock says she must drink it in order to open her mind to what she will see. Once she finishes drinking the wizards wine she enter the HOTU. While in there she experiences many visions she then enters the audience chamber where the Undying are, they try to take her and keep her there. She is able to escape with the help of Drogon and the HOTU is set on fire. As she makes her way out Pyat tries to attack her but is stopped by Drogon and Jhogo.

OBSERVATIONS

* Dany refers to herself as a khal: “Some places even a khal must walk alone,” Dany said.

* Jorah’s possessiveness of Dany is growing. He becomes very irritated when Xaro mentions the pleasure barge.

* Dany prays to both the Seven and the Horse God: “The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength.”

* Shades of the evening is referred to as the warlocks wine this made me think of Euron and what unknown powers might he have.

* The magic we see in the HOTU is different from what we had previously seen (i.e. MMD).

* Day is given answer but she doesn’t have the appropriate knowledge to understand what the visions mean.

ANALYSIS

The Nature of Magic

“Ser Jorah Mormont gave the merchant prince a sour look. “Your Grace, remember Mirri Maz Duur.”

Dany is warned by her bloodriders, Xaro and Ser Jorah of the danger of entering the House of the Undying. After what happened with Mirri, Dany doesn’t exactly trust the Undying, however, she feels like she needs their knowledge in order to guide her on her journey. She did exhaust her other options and in reality this was the last option left to her. Her resolve seems intuitive, she is being guided by instincts once again.

Even with Dany’s need to find direction, I do wonder why she would decide to go into the HOTU, as her first encounter with magic and maegi did not go well. Could it be perhaps that she sees the birth of her dragons as her conquering over the magic that was done against her?

Rotten on the Outside, Rotten ow the Inside

“The mold-eaten carpet under her feet had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green.”

The facade of the HOTU is a true representation of what the Undying have become. From the descriptions we get from the inside they must have been once a very powerful and wealthily group, the decorations were once beautiful and expensive yet now they are decaying just like their House.

Reading the descriptions of the now decaying glory of the HOTU, I wonder if their fate was tied to that of the dragons / fire magic. If the dragons have been gone for 150 years that would explain the amount of decay we see in the HOTU. If the birth of the dragons then brought the magic back full force it would explain why they were so interested in Dany and her dragons.

Drogon

“Drogon lashed against her back, urging her on, and Dany ran until she could run no more.”

Dany brining Drogon with her was a very good idea. From the beginning he does not trust the Undying, hissing at the house. He manages to keep Dany on track as well as saving her life. He demonstrates and intelligence and intuition greater than expected for a dragon, I think.

After she hatched her dragons this is the first time we see Dany and Drogon’s bond at work. His understands the threat against her and does everything he can to guide her and later save her life.

Ebony & Weirwood

“To her right , a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening.”

The is the second time we’ve encountered the combination of ebony and weirwood in doors, the first time was in the home of Tobbo Mott the blacksmith:

“The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn.”

The third time in in the House of Black and White:

“At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell.”

An interesting combination, it makes me wonder what kind of magical properties are brought together by combining these two woods. Later in the series will see Dany seated in an ebony bench which she uses as a throne, her magical counterpart a Bran will later sit in a weirwood throne.

The Blue Heart

“Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light.”

Could this heart be the only remaining source of the power and life left of the Undying? The color blue has a very prominent role in this chapter. It is used to representative the Undying. It’s funny because the color blue can also be considered representative of the Others (ice) and the WW (blue eyes). and perhaps the Heart of Winter. However, like with most things in the series there are two sides to it. We have the ice dragons the skies which helps guide those in the North, and the blue roses which Lyanna loved.

They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them …

“…the fire, the life..” This must be the true reason they wanted Dany, they are cold and dying and Dany has the fire and the life within her. The dragons might be a representation (manifestation?) of this.

“Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot.”

“the indigo turned to organ” Ice turned to Fire (ASoIaF!). Here we see again that fire is life, what the Undying crave the most (life & Fire) is what eventually destroys them.

Shades of the Evening & Weirwood Paste

“Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed, it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue the taste was like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was like all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them … and then the glass was empty.”

“It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as the acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the floor.”

I just wanted to point out how similar these descriptions are. What at firs tasted bitter and spoiled becomes rich and sweet enough to taste like honey. Both of these substances are meant to allow both Dany and Bran to expand their sensesin order to understand what they are about to see and experience.

The Visions

Now to discuss the meaty part of the chapter.

“In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing…”

Many believe this is a representation of the four remaining kings of Westeros savaging the land in order to get the Throne. Balon crowned himself after Renly died so there were only ever four kings vying for the throne at any one time.

“Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons , roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.”

This is foreshadowing of the Red Wedding. I wondered why would Dany be shown this particular vision as she has no connection to what happened. At first I thought GRRM was putting the scene there to give the readers the foreshadowing. However, after reading the chapter again the last sentence caught my eye: “… and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.” what is he appealing to her for? Might Dany help give the Starks right that wrong?

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.” His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He’s dead, he’s dead , the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

This is a vision of Dany;s time in Braavos, in the House with the Red Doors. More than a vision of the past it most like was temptation by the Undying in order for Dany to forget the rules. Dany, however, remembers that Darry is dead and is able to keep herself on track.

The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked , his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on.”

Here we see King Aerys (Dany’s father) in King’s Landing, the war has been lost and it looks like he is plotting to blow up King’s Landing. I think the “he” King Aerys is speaking of is Robert.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

Here we see what is apparently a vision of Dany’s oldest brother Rhaegar, his wife Elia and their newborn son Aegon. For the first time we hear the title of the series and we hear for the first time the phrase the dragon has three heads.

At this point in her journey through the HOTU the vision become more vague in nature. We know the characters in this scene, however, we are introduced to concepts that as of now we don’t quite understand. The Song of Ice and Fire we’re told has many meaning, some we have been able to decipher others not so much. Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that was Promise prophecy and seemed to want to replicate the trio of Aegon the Conqueror. Perhaps believing or interpreting something in the text that it would be a “union” or “partnership” that would represent the idea of the dragon has three heads.

Rhaegar looks at Dany when he says “there must be one more” as part of the instructions given to her by Pyat Pree he said that some of the vision will interact with her, it seems like Rhaegar was indeed interacting with her. I believe it will be Dany’s job to assemble the three heads of the dragon.

The number three plays a prominent role in this chapter as well as in Dany’s arc, GRRM has associate the number with Dany throughout the series and, I imagine that her her arc might be divided in three acts.

“… mother of dragons … came a voice, part whisper and part moan … dragons … dragons … dragons … other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child.”

Male, female, child, hmmm….

“… the shape of shadows … morrows not yet made … drink from the cup of ice … drink from the cup of fire … … mother of dragons … child of three … “Three?” She did not understand. … three heads has the dragon …"

Again we see the concept of ice and fire mentioned in unison. The Undying tell Dany that she must drink from both of them, this gives me the impression that to drink from both cups is to find balance. The Undying call her “mother of dragons…child of three…” when Dany tells them she doesn’t understand they repeat the phrase she had just heard Rhaegar say “…three head has the dragon…” I think this clearly indicates that Dany is part of the “three heads of the dragons” she is after all the “child of three”.

“… three fires must you light … one for life and one for death and one to love …

… three mounts must you ride … one to bed and one to dread and one to love … three treasons will you know … once for blood and once for gold and once for love…”

Some of these I believe have come to pass, some I don’t believe we have seen yet. They are all on whole quite vague.

Fires: The fire for life I believe was the lighting of the pyre where the dragons were born. For death, I’m unsure if we have already seen this one come to pass, however, it could be the sacking of Astapor although I’m unsure of that. The fire to love seems to indicate that it my be a fire that will guide her to love.

Mounts: These can either be literal or metaphorical, I’m not sure we can tell either way. If they are literal mounts, then the first one was her silver who she rode to her wedding consummation, The second one was Drogon who is often compared to Balerion the Black Dread. I don’t think we know what / who the third mount will be although I’m include to believe it’s Ghost. Her silver (gray), Drogon (black) and Ghost (white).

Treasons: The treason for blood I believe it was Mirri, whether you believe Mirri was justified in her revenge, Dany felt breathed. As for the other two treasons I’m not sure we have seen either of them happen. Dany herself speculated it might have been Jorah who betrayed her for gold, but Jorah didn’t betray her for gold, he did it for a pardon.

“I don’t understand,” she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? “Help me. Show me.” … help her … the whispers mocked. … show her …"

Dany doesn’t understand, the oh so obvious words (/sarcasm) they have spoken to her. She asked for clarification and the Undying oblige. I think there is a connection between what they have just told her and what they are about to show her. She asked for clarification and they are giving it to her. However, I don’t know how the two might be connected.

“Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. … mother of dragons, daughter of death …"

The first vision is the death of Viserys at the hands of Khal Drogo, the second vision seems to be of her son Rhaego, this of course will never come to pass, the third vision is the death of her brother Rhaegar at the Trident, the name he murmured was Lyanna (I’m told this is confirm in the app). At the end they call her “daughter of death” all three of these deaths played an important role in Dany’s life, shaping the woman she has and will become.

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. … mother of dragons, slayer of lies …”

The first vision is almost surely a representation of Stannis, he has blue eyes, he has no shadow, and his sword has been described as being as bright as the sun. The second vision seems to either indicate Aegon and/or Varys/Illyrio. The third vision is a bit harder to decipher, I’m inclined to believe it must be another kind of pretender. At the end of the set the Undying call Dany “slayer of lies”, Stannis is pretending to be Azor Ahai, Aegon and Varys/Illyrio are pretending that Aegon is the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Some believe that the third vision might be Jon, however, I don’t believe it is. When Dany slays the first two lies it will be a fall from grace for both Stannis and Aegon (Varys & Illyrio), I believe that whoever is being represented int he third vision will also fall from grace when Dany slays their lie.

“Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. … mother of dragons, bride of fire …”

The final set of three pared visions seem to represent Dany’s husbands. The first vision describes her first night with Drogo on her wedding day. The second and third vision are a bit more tricky. There is a lot of debate about who the second vision represents, some believe it might be Victarion, I however, believe it is Hizface. I think that what we are seeing is Hizface being tied to a Greyjoy ship as a figurehead by Victarion who we know wants to kill Hizface. The third and final vision is most likely a representation of Jon as his mother (if R+L=J is true) loved blue winter roses, and his father once gave her a crowned of them.

The “filled the air with sweetness” indicates that this will be a source of happiness for Dany. If we look at the vision as a whole we can see that it symbolizes hope and perseverance. The imagine of a flower growing out of concrete or any harsh environment is commonly used to represent perseverance against the odds, as well as hope. Another interpretation could be the coming of Spring, a blower growing after the long, harsh winter finally making it’s way out onto the surface. As this is the last vision Dany sees from the large grouping it makes me think of the finally title of the series A Dream of Spring. Surviving after the Long Night, persevering, seeing signs that spring might come, giving hope, that indeed would be sweet.

Now, I’m inclined to believe in a Dany and Jon union, however, I would not be surprised if this merely means Dany will find happiness in having found a member of her family.

“Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other , until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible."

These are the final vision Dany receives from the Undying. This is of the night Mirri worked her magic in the tent with Drogo.

"A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. ”

A vision of Dany’s past.

“Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. ”

A vision of the pyre when Dany burned Mirri and the dragon hatched.

“Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged."

When Drogo tied the wine seller to Dnay’s silver after the wine seller tried to poison Dany.

"A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.”

Some think this might be representing a Lanister, although, it could be a representation of the lion Drogo hunts for Dany.

“Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. ”

If Dany is names the Stallion who Mounts the World (as I suspect) this would show us the crones bowing down to her and accepting her as the Khal of Khals.

“Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them …”

This is a vision of the slaves of Yunkai after Dany frees them.

CONCLUSION

This is a jam-packed chapter with all kinds of foreshadowing and symbolism. it’s probably my favorite chapter in the book, closely followed by the birth of the dragons. Dany and the readers receive a lot of information and we are left with more questions than answers. GRRM gives us the information but like Dany we don’t have the key to understanding what it really means.

Last Edit: Jul 11, 2016 18:15:49 GMT -5 by moiaf

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The House of the Undying Jul 11, 2016 22:10:54 GMT -5

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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 11, 2016 22:10:54 GMT -5

Jul 11, 2016 18:09:08 GMT -5 moiaf said:

I love the House of the Undying, it truly is one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. A few years back while we were all still in Westeros. org we were doing a Dany re-read and I was assigned this chapter, I'll post my review which includes my interpretation of each vision. Also, I'm working on another essay based this time on the Undying themselves.

Daenerys IV - ACoK

The House of the Undying

SUMMARY

The Visions

Now to discuss the meaty part of the chapter.

“In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing…”

Many believe this is a representation of the four remaining kings of Westeros savaging the land in order to get the Throne. Balon crowned himself after Renly died so there were only ever four kings vying for the throne at any one time. I agreed. The woman is Westeros, the men the four kings.

“Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons , roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.”

This is foreshadowing of the Red Wedding. I wondered why would Dany be shown this particular vision as she has no connection to what happened. At first I thought GRRM was putting the scene there to give the readers the foreshadowing. However, after reading the chapter again the last sentence caught my eye: “… and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.” what is he appealing to her for? Might Dany help give the Starks right that wrong? The man has to be Robb Stark. They sewed his direwolf's head to his body after they were dead. I think the 'mute appeal' is for justice in the name of all the wrongs that Westeros has gone through in recent years.

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.” His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He’s dead, he’s dead , the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

This is a vision of Dany;s time in Braavos, in the House with the Red Doors. More than a vision of the past it most like was temptation by the Undying in order for Dany to forget the rules. Dany, however, remembers that Darry is dead and is able to keep herself on track. Agreed. This was to tempt her with what she could never have again - the simplicity of childhood along with its carefree innocence.

The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked , his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on.”

Here we see King Aerys (Dany’s father) in King’s Landing, the war has been lost and it looks like he is plotting to blow up King’s Landing. I think the “he” King Aerys is speaking of is Robert. This is most likely Aerys speaking to Jamie shortly before his death. The 'he' could be Robert, or it could be Tywin Lannister who was marching toward the city. Aerys had been suspicious of Tywin's ambitions.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

Here we see what is apparently a vision of Dany’s oldest brother Rhaegar, his wife Elia and their newborn son Aegon. For the first time we hear the title of the series and we hear for the first time the phrase the dragon has three heads. My favorite part of this scene. Elia, Rhaegar and Aegon. I do think he was speaking to Dany as well as himself when the 'dragon has three heads' is mentioned. Both for himself and for her. She is the third of Aerys' children. She must identify the other two, now that the obvious choices are gone.

At this point in her journey through the HOTU the vision become more vague in nature. We know the characters in this scene, however, we are introduced to concepts that as of now we don’t quite understand. The Song of Ice and Fire we’re told has many meaning, some we have been able to decipher others not so much. Rhaegar was obsessed with the Prince that was Promise prophecy and seemed to want to replicate the trio of Aegon the Conqueror. Perhaps believing or interpreting something in the text that it would be a “union” or “partnership” that would represent the idea of the dragon has three heads.

Rhaegar looks at Dany when he says “there must be one more” as part of the instructions given to her by Pyat Pree he said that some of the vision will interact with her, it seems like Rhaegar was indeed interacting with her. I believe it will be Dany’s job to assemble the three heads of the dragon.

The number three plays a prominent role in this chapter as well as in Dany’s arc, GRRM has associate the number with Dany throughout the series and, I imagine that her her arc might be divided in three acts.

“… mother of dragons … came a voice, part whisper and part moan … dragons … dragons … dragons … other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child.”

Male, female, child, hmmm….

“… the shape of shadows … morrows not yet made … drink from the cup of ice … drink from the cup of fire … … mother of dragons … child of three … “Three?” She did not understand. … three heads has the dragon …"

Again we see the concept of ice and fire mentioned in unison. The Undying tell Dany that she must drink from both of them, this gives me the impression that to drink from both cups is to find balance. The Undying call her “mother of dragons…child of three…” when Dany tells them she doesn’t understand they repeat the phrase she had just heard Rhaegar say “…three head has the dragon…” I think this clearly indicates that Dany is part of the “three heads of the dragons” she is after all the “child of three”.

“… three fires must you light … one for life and one for death and one to love …

… three mounts must you ride … one to bed and one to dread and one to love … three treasons will you know … once for blood and once for gold and once for love…”

Some of these I believe have come to pass, some I don’t believe we have seen yet. They are all on whole quite vague.

Fires: The fire for life I believe was the lighting of the pyre where the dragons were born. For death, I’m unsure if we have already seen this one come to pass, however, it could be the sacking of Astapor although I’m unsure of that. The fire to love seems to indicate that it my be a fire that will guide her to love. The fire for life was the funeral pyre of Drogo, which birthed the dragons. The fire for death was Dany locking the khals in Vas Khaleen and burning them to death, thus becoming the Khal of Khals. The fire for love is to come. Which I think will be the fire to destroy the White Walkers. I don't know if it will be dragon fire or wildfire.

Mounts: These can either be literal or metaphorical, I’m not sure we can tell either way. If they are literal mounts, then the first one was her silver who she rode to her wedding consummation, The second one was Drogon who is often compared to Balerion the Black Dread. I don’t think we know what / who the third mount will be although I’m include to believe it’s Ghost. Her silver (gray), Drogon (black) and Ghost (white). Agree - the Silver is to bed; Drogon is to dread, the danger than comes from the sky; and one to love? Could be riding the ships to Westeros, which she has loved yet never seen.

Treasons: The treason for blood I believe it was Mirri, whether you believe Mirri was justified in her revenge, Dany felt breathed. As for the other two treasons I’m not sure we have seen either of them happen. Dany herself speculated it might have been Jorah who betrayed her for gold, but Jorah didn’t betray her for gold, he did it for a pardon. The first treason was Mirri who wanted revenge. The second was the seige of Meereen, where she is betrayed for gold. Could Jorah be considered the treason for love?

“I don’t understand,” she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? “Help me. Show me.” … help her … the whispers mocked. … show her …"

Dany doesn’t understand, the oh so obvious words (/sarcasm) they have spoken to her. She asked for clarification and the Undying oblige. I think there is a connection between what they have just told her and what they are about to show her. She asked for clarification and they are giving it to her. However, I don’t know how the two might be connected.

“Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. … mother of dragons, daughter of death …"

The first vision is the death of Viserys at the hands of Khal Drogo, the second vision seems to be of her son Rhaego, this of course will never come to pass, the third vision is the death of her brother Rhaegar at the Trident, the name he murmured was Lyanna (I’m told this is confirm in the app). At the end they call her “daughter of death” all three of these deaths played an important role in Dany’s life, shaping the woman she has and will become.

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. … mother of dragons, slayer of lies …”

The first vision is almost surely a representation of Stannis, he has blue eyes, he has no shadow, and his sword has been described as being as bright as the sun. The second vision seems to either indicate Aegon and/or Varys/Illyrio. The third vision is a bit harder to decipher, I’m inclined to believe it must be another kind of pretender. At the end of the set the Undying call Dany “slayer of lies”, Stannis is pretending to be Azor Ahai, Aegon and Varys/Illyrio are pretending that Aegon is the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Some believe that the third vision might be Jon, however, I don’t believe it is. When Dany slays the first two lies it will be a fall from grace for both Stannis and Aegon (Varys & Illyrio), I believe that whoever is being represented int he third vision will also fall from grace when Dany slays their lie. I thought the blue-eyed king with no shadow might be the Night King. the great stone beast might represent the dragons returning from stone eggs.

“Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. … mother of dragons, bride of fire …”

The final set of three pared visions seem to represent Dany’s husbands. The first vision describes her first night with Drogo on her wedding day. The second and third vision are a bit more tricky. There is a lot of debate about who the second vision represents, some believe it might be Victarion, I however, believe it is Hizface. I think that what we are seeing is Hizface being tied to a Greyjoy ship as a figurehead by Victarion who we know wants to kill Hizface. The third and final vision is most likely a representation of Jon as his mother (if R+L=J is true) loved blue winter roses, and his father once gave her a crowned of them.

The “filled the air with sweetness” indicates that this will be a source of happiness for Dany. If we look at the vision as a whole we can see that it symbolizes hope and perseverance. The imagine of a flower growing out of concrete or any harsh environment is commonly used to represent perseverance against the odds, as well as hope. Another interpretation could be the coming of Spring, a blower growing after the long, harsh winter finally making it’s way out onto the surface. As this is the last vision Dany sees from the large grouping it makes me think of the finally title of the series A Dream of Spring. Surviving after the Long Night, persevering, seeing signs that spring might come, giving hope, that indeed would be sweet.

Now, I’m inclined to believe in a Dany and Jon union, however, I would not be surprised if this merely means Dany will find happiness in having found a member of her family.

“Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other , until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible."

These are the final vision Dany receives from the Undying. This is of the night Mirri worked her magic in the tent with Drogo.

"A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. ”

A vision of Dany’s past.

“Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. ”

A vision of the pyre when Dany burned Mirri and the dragon hatched.

“Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged."

When Drogo tied the wine seller to Dnay’s silver after the wine seller tried to poison Dany.

"A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.”

Some think this might be representing a Lanister, although, it could be a representation of the lion Drogo hunts for Dany.

“Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. ”

If Dany is names the Stallion who Mounts the World (as I suspect) this would show us the crones bowing down to her and accepting her as the Khal of Khals. I think this is after they Khals are burned and Dany emerges alone.

“Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them …”

This is a vision of the slaves of Yunkai after Dany frees them.

CONCLUSION

This is a jam-packed chapter with all kinds of foreshadowing and symbolism. it’s probably my favorite chapter in the book, closely followed by the birth of the dragons. Dany and the readers receive a lot of information and we are left with more questions than answers. GRRM gives us the information but like Dany we don’t have the key to understanding what it really means.

I love this! So much of this is exactly what I had come to as well. The amazing clues given to her during this scene.

moiaf
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The House of the Undying Jul 12, 2016 8:28:16 GMT -5 izzue and Lady Sansa's Direwolf like this

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Post by moiaf on Jul 12, 2016 8:28:16 GMT -5

Lady Sansa's Direwolf - it's amazing how many clues and foreshadowing there are in that chapter. There is always something new to explore every time you read it.

A quick update to my initial interpretations, for the Slayer of lies, I now think they will be Stannis (he's not AAR, that will be Dany and Jon), Aegon (he's not the true king, that will be Dany and Jon) and Euron is the beast breathing shadow fire. There is a really excellent blogger called prooquentyn that has written extensively about Euron. He's Dany's foil and she will have to slay him good.

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The House of the Undying Jul 15, 2016 12:21:07 GMT -5 izzue likes this

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Post by khaella on Jul 15, 2016 12:21:07 GMT -5

This is probably one of my favorite chapters! So much information, symbolism, and foreshadowing is in this chapter. My main interest (right now) in this chapter are the black-barked trees outside of the HotUD. We know that they have black bark and the blue leaves that are used to make the shade of the evening. I've wondered if they are the mysterious hard black bark ironwood trees that we hear about occasionally. If so, would they be similar, or the opposite of the weirwoods? Black/white (life/death) red/blue (fire/ice). It would make sense since the theme of opposites run deep. I also wonder if instead of ebony, as Dany thinks it is, the black wood on the door there and at the HoBaW is actually ironwood.

Ironwood is only mentioned 12 times throughout the series, but I have a nagging feeling that they are important. Now I know the Telltale game and other games aren't canon, but they do mention ironwoods. In one game I used to play, they used an ironwood paste to help a character see. We also know that the Others hate iron thanks to Old Nan. The Starks use an ironwood stump for executions and they have to cross a bridge made of ironwood to get to the stump. There are also a few ironwoods in their godswood. I think that I might start a thread about ironwoods

moiaf, very thorough post! I will need to read over it again

You mention how the color blue is prominent throughout this chapter. I've been thinking that blue may symbolize death. Clearly we see that in this chapter with the Undying, but there are other instances. The Others' eyes is an obvious one. The most recent one that I have noticed is in the Sansa chapter where Lysa is pushed. Lysa and Sansa are both wearing blue, and it actually sounds like they are dressed like one another. Sapphires represent lies so I wonder if there is a connection between the blue of sapphires and death. Seems like I have 2 possible threads here

There are a lot of parallels between Bran and Dany in this chapter. She sees Pyat Pree standing through a door way that looks like a mouth. Bran and Co. have to go through the Black Gate in the Wall which was also a mouth. There is also the experience of drinking/eating the shade of the evening and the weirwood paste. Both hate the taste and then the taste turns into things they love. Then we have the Undying telling Dany that they have been waiting for her for a 1000 years, just as Bloodraven tells Bran that he has been waiting for him (in the show he says a "1000 years", but we know it hasn't been that long in the books, but it's still an interesting parallel.

#14 is the most curious vision to me. Very ambiguous and confusing to me. I feel like most of them I know, though I'm sure that I will be proven wrong lol, but #14 draws me in and makes my brain run in circles. It could be a few things.

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The House of the Undying Jul 16, 2016 11:13:56 GMT -5 izzue and khaella like this

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Post by blisscraft on Jul 16, 2016 11:13:56 GMT -5

Izzue _ Thank you for creating this thread. It is one of the most interesting chapters in the series.

moif - Fantastic analysis! Below I will address some of your insights.

Khaella - I completely agree about ironwood. When it is mentioned, it has relevance because it is exceptional and ought to be noted as you have done, especially when it connects to the old gods and the old ways,as in Winterfell's godswood, and any connection to the children of the forest.

A caveat before you read any further - I enjoy Martin's books because he constantly uses symbols and archetypes. I link his use of them to enhance my understanding of characters and plot development. Back in Westeros, this was greeted, more often then not, with mocking and derisiveness. Part of this was probably due to the fact that each of us has a tendency to look at symbols and archetypes through our own personal lens. There is nothing wrong with this. However, there are certain universal meanings which I will bring up and discuss. If you find this sort of thing boring; then read no further. If you enjoy not only finding breadcrumbs, but also examining their nature, (i.e. is it rye or whole wheat?), then have a look with me below.

moiaf - The Nature of Magic - This is such a tricky thing. I find your question "Could it be perhaps that she sees the birth of her dragons as her conquering over the magic that was done against her?" Wow! How insightful this is!

Your question took me to Von Franz'z book, The Feminine in Fairy Tales. In her discussion of the story of Vasilisa, the Beautiful, Von Franz notes that institutionalized magic, something that has been "codified" by rote learning and/or "book learned" is powerless against natural, instinctual magic, as represented by an animal friend, a horse, in the fairy tale. Dany, like Vasilisa, has a need to enter the HOTU and brings her animal friend, Drogon with her. This is significant because Drogon embodies the power of the instinctual magic over something that MMD undoubtedly had to learn by rote, or the institutional magic represented by the HOTU. Dany with Drogon ultimately destroys the HOTU because their natural magic is "living wisdom." It does not belong to the past or future, but is eternally present; it doesn't age or decay.

This leads to the idea of rotten inside and out. This dried decaying place with its dried and decaying inhabitants reveals the sterility of their institutional power. It is all about its past and is striving for a revitalized future through the use of Dany and Drogon. Martin skillfully employs this rotten and decaying institution in juxtaposition with its name, The House of the Undying. They may never die, but there is little life left in them because of their obsession with the past and desire for a future.

This, of course leads me to the Blue Heart which Martin uses both literally and figuratively the HOTU's collective center. The heart is our organ associated, under normal circumstances, with the color red, as it pumps blood. Here, Martin plays with "normal". Yes, it is at the seeming center of this body, as it would be in any human body, but it floats and is blue. Floating suggests that this heart is fading, as in floating away, like dust motes or puffs of smoke. It seems to transcend the ground without complete transcendence. The color blue is a rare color. The ocean and the sky are just about the only things we can see on a daily basis that are blue without assistance of dye. Blue is rare and in the HOTU's case, perhaps rarefied. Blue is the color of eternity, beyond the earth or deep in the ocean. Consequently, the color blue is associated with the highest value, such as the blue ribbon or blue blood or a blue plate special. But the color blue is also associated with sadness, such as "feeling blue" or the color of a bruise, or singing the blues. A blue note is a flat dropped into a major key. It changes the tone from the straightforward .to the complex with its addition in a major melody. The blue heart here is just such a change, to quote Cole Porter, "But how strange the change from major to minor. . . "(Every Time We Say Goodbye). Porter matches the quoted lyric with a dropped flat in the melody and the result is haunting. The effect achieved by Martin with this symbol is similar with the blue heart.

Which brings me to the number three. The number three, interestingly enough is associated with the heart. In less modern times, the heart was one of three organs in the vertical scheme of the body: the brain, the heart, and the sexual organs. The heart is the center of the three. As it is in the center it partakes some meaning of the other two organs, the brain and the genitals. From poetry to greeting cards, the heart aligns the head and the private parts. It becomes a "living symbol" rather than just an organ with a vital job. We may say or hear, "I love you with all my heart." The heart and/or the number three can represent spiritual synthesis, a solution to the conflicts in dualism.

I must end here as I am out of time.

Last Edit: Jul 16, 2016 11:14:21 GMT -5 by blisscraft

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The House of the Undying Jul 16, 2016 12:49:31 GMT -5 blisscraft likes this

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Post by izzue on Jul 16, 2016 12:49:31 GMT -5

There are so many parts of HOTU that seem to have been pretty much universally accepted, then dismissed, as if "Yeah, that's it. That's what it means. Now, moving on to something else." It's so nice to have fresh insights and discussions.

moiaf , thank you for your very comprehensive, in-depth analysis. Your insights are amazing, though I know I will need to go back and reread it, too.

khaella , I love your very interesting information about ironwood, and I think that it will be playing a vital role in the books to come. I'd love to see a thread on this, and maybe the lore/significance surrounding other woods and metals in ASOIAF as well. I don't think Martin threw in any references haphazardly, I think they're inextricably tied together. I'd love to discover what link there might be to HOBAW.

blisscraft , I love your work with the symbols in the passage. My nephew was tragically born without a strong, solid wall between the left ventricle and the right ventricle of his heart; consequently his blood didn't get pumped in a proper figure 8 pattern and traveled primarily from heart to body to heart to body without going to the lungs nearly often enough. The point is that he always literally 'looked blue' without all the fresh blood and life-sustaining oxygen he needed. Your discussion of the blue heart brings back that vivid memory and rings so true.

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The House of the Undying Jul 16, 2016 12:50:49 GMT -5 blisscraft likes this

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Post by khaella on Jul 16, 2016 12:50:49 GMT -5

blisscraft, Great post! I never knew that 3 was connected to the brain, heart, and genitals. It's making my wheels turn though and I'm starting to get some ideas about this chapter that I hadn't before I read this. A lot to think about here.

khaella Rhaegal @khaella Posts: 260 Likes: 135 khaella inherit Female 74 0 Nov 7, 2016 14:54:22 GMT -5 135 khaella 260 Rhaegal Jul 14, 2016 12:23:50 GMT -5 July 2016 khaella	The House of the Undying Jul 16, 2016 12:52:16 GMT -5 izzue likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by khaella on Jul 16, 2016 12:52:16 GMT -5 izzue, thank you I am actually working on an ironwood thread at the moment. I have also been working on something about a few metals, but it isn't ready yet. As soon as it is, I will post it though!

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The House of the Undying Jul 17, 2016 11:23:33 GMT -5 izzue and khaella like this

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Post by blisscraft on Jul 17, 2016 11:23:33 GMT -5

Thank you, izzue and khaella for you acknowledgement and kind words. Izzue - so sorry to hear about your nephew.

I wanted to get back, briefly, to the number three. It is an important number in Martin's world and is associated not only with Dany, but also Jon and Tyrion. First of all, it seems that Martin's grouping of the number three with these three, repeats itself again and again. For example, all three have lost their mothers at their respective births. Martin emphasizes this tragic loss only with these three characters. The consequence of this powerful and profound loss molds each into the "adult" (I use the word "adult" in quotations because Dany and Jon are both so young at this point in the story) they become. With Dany in this particular chapter, we see the echo of this loss in the house with the red door. (Izzue's noted #19). I don't want to get too clinical, but the house with the red door can easily symbolize a place of birth from which we have exited, but cannot reenter as much as we might desire it, as the child in her vision. It is the past.

Moiaf - has fully elaborated all of the "threes" in Dany's vision and I think her analysis is worth noting as a reader progresses through the text. It is a little mystery Martin has planted as neatly and as intriguingly as the identity of Jon's mother.

Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, will be the three heads of the dragon, in my opinion. The main reason I have come to this conclusion has to do with the fact noted above to the loss of their mothers at birth. Generally, in myth and fairy tale when one loses their physical mother to death, the hero or heroine acquires, usually through some mystical or magical means, a protector, in the form of an animal. The animal is either supernaturally gifted, like a horse that speaks (and I don't mean "Mr. Ed.") or an other worldly creature, as in this case, a dragon or three. I would elaborate further on this, but I would like to stick with the thread's topic and the acquisition of the animal (in this case the three dragons) remains to unfold in the main story. So it isn't quite ripe.

Briefly back to the number three, (please bear with me). I wrote above that the number three is a solution the the problem of dualism. The conflict inherent in a union of opposites, female and male, black and white, day and night, etc. . . can be overcome by the "transcendent third." Note that the final third in each of these three couplings, at izzue's #8, in each is love. It is love that solves the problem and antagonism in dualism and creates transcendence and/or ascendance above the struggle.

Finally, just a couple of notes about gold and silver; rubies and sapphires. Beginning with gold, like the color blue, it is rare in nature. Consequently, it, like blue is highly prized, think of " the gold ring," "the golden egg," "the golden crown." Of course, Martin throws the value on its head again in this chapter by referring to the "crown of gold" given to Viserys. Like Midas's touch, what is golden may carry disaster and death. Especially, if one, like Viserys, is striving only for gold because he feels entitled to it. (The Greyjoys, use this to devalue gold, as in their culture, paying the "gold price" has less value than paying the "iron price.")

Silver is an interesting metal because, though less valuable than gold, it has a superior value chemically. Silver has natural antibiotic properties and was used in the past to fight infection. Some still use it as you can find it in your nearest relaxed and groovy health food store. However, like anything else, too much of it can cause poisoning. The result of silver poisoning it to literally turn blue. I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.

Gold is the color associated with the sun, silver with the moon. These colors seem, once again to refer to dualism in this chapter, like the weirwood and ebony, white and black etc. . .

As to rubies and sapphires - Rubies and their red color is part of Dany's sigil and a powerful textual reference to Dany's brother Rhaegar. Also, according to the ancient Greeks, the "mother of all gemstones." Rome supplied the origin of our word "ruby" meaning red in Latin (rubeus). Also, the Romans called the ruby a "flower among gemstones." Because of their red color, rubies are associated with the genitals and the heart. You can see why "mother," and "flower," are references to the ruby. All of this redness suggests once again the heart. The red heart, like the lotus and the rose, represent the hidden enfolded center beneath the surface of the outside world. You see this in religious iconography, like the "sacred heart."

Sapphires may come in other colors, but the most highly valued color is blue. I cannot find a reference to sapphires being associate with lying. Most of the material I have in my notes involves sapphires' high status and value, but the second to ruby in value. Also, sapphires are associated with the crown of the head, and became a favorite stone to put in royals' crowns. There is a parallel here with the colors red and blue, as well as with gold, the highest in value, and silver, second in value to gold. This is a little off topic, but the "true blue" aspect of sapphires is one of the reasons I think Martin chose it as the home of Brienne.

One last thing, the line, "Grey lips smiling sadly" has always seemed to be Greyjoy. The color grey combined with a sad smile: Greyjoy. Maybe this is too obvious for Martin's writing. :cheers:

Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016 11:45:03 GMT -5 by blisscraft

moiaf
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The House of the Undying Jul 18, 2016 8:10:27 GMT -5 izzue and khaella like this

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Post by moiaf on Jul 18, 2016 8:10:27 GMT -5

Sorry about the late replies, I just needed some time to collect my thoughts on these fine observations.

Jul 15, 2016 12:21:07 GMT -5 khaella said:

This is probably one of my favorite chapters! So much information, symbolism, and foreshadowing is in this chapter. My main interest (right now) in this chapter are the black-barked trees outside of the HotUD. We know that they have black bark and the blue leaves that are used to make the shade of the evening. I've wondered if they are the mysterious hard black bark ironwood trees that we hear about occasionally. If so, would they be similar, or the opposite of the weirwoods? Black/white (life/death) red/blue (fire/ice). It would make sense since the theme of opposites run deep. I also wonder if instead of ebony, as Dany thinks it is, the black wood on the door there and at the HoBaW is actually ironwood.

Ironwood is only mentioned 12 times throughout the series, but I have a nagging feeling that they are important. Now I know the Telltale game and other games aren't canon, but they do mention ironwoods. In one game I used to play, they used an ironwood paste to help a character see. We also know that the Others hate iron thanks to Old Nan. The Starks use an ironwood stump for executions and they have to cross a bridge made of ironwood to get to the stump. There are also a few ironwoods in their godswood. I think that I might start a thread about ironwoods

moiaf , very thorough post! I will need to read over it again

You mention how the color blue is prominent throughout this chapter. I've been thinking that blue may symbolize death. Clearly we see that in this chapter with the Undying, but there are other instances. The Others' eyes is an obvious one. The most recent one that I have noticed is in the Sansa chapter where Lysa is pushed. Lysa and Sansa are both wearing blue, and it actually sounds like they are dressed like one another. Sapphires represent lies so I wonder if there is a connection between the blue of sapphires and death. Seems like I have 2 possible threads here

There are a lot of parallels between Bran and Dany in this chapter. She sees Pyat Pree standing through a door way that looks like a mouth. Bran and Co. have to go through the Black Gate in the Wall which was also a mouth. There is also the experience of drinking/eating the shade of the evening and the weirwood paste. Both hate the taste and then the taste turns into things they love. Then we have the Undying telling Dany that they have been waiting for her for a 1000 years, just as Bloodraven tells Bran that he has been waiting for him (in the show he says a "1000 years", but we know it hasn't been that long in the books, but it's still an interesting parallel.

#14 is the most curious vision to me. Very ambiguous and confusing to me. I feel like most of them I know, though I'm sure that I will be proven wrong lol, but #14 draws me in and makes my brain run in circles. It could be a few things.

Yes, I believe that blue in general is representative of death in ASoIaF. I really like the other instances you have noted and I'm sure there are more of them. Interestingly, when Dany see the blue flower growing out of a chink of ice, we associate this with Jon because of Lyanna's love for blue flowers and the crown Rhaegar gave her. However, now that we are further ahead in the series in the show

SPOILER: Click to show

we know that Jon has in fact died so the blue flower not only represents his heritage but it is also an accurate description of Jon's condition.

Jul 16, 2016 11:13:56 GMT -5 blisscraft said:

Izzue _ Thank you for creating this thread. It is one of the most interesting chapters in the series.

moif - Fantastic analysis! Below I will address some of your insights.

Khaella - I completely agree about ironwood. When it is mentioned, it has relevance because it is exceptional and ought to be noted as you have done, especially when it connects to the old gods and the old ways,as in Winterfell's godswood, and any connection to the children of the forest.

A caveat before you read any further - I enjoy Martin's books because he constantly uses symbols and archetypes. I link his use of them to enhance my understanding of characters and plot development. Back in Westeros, this was greeted, more often then not, with mocking and derisiveness. Part of this was probably due to the fact that each of us has a tendency to look at symbols and archetypes through our own personal lens. There is nothing wrong with this. However, there are certain universal meanings which I will bring up and discuss. If you find this sort of thing boring; then read no further. If you enjoy not only finding breadcrumbs, but also examining their nature, (i.e. is it rye or whole wheat?), then have a look with me below.

moiaf - The Nature of Magic - This is such a tricky thing. I find your question "Could it be perhaps that she sees the birth of her dragons as her conquering over the magic that was done against her?" Wow! How insightful this is!

Your question took me to Von Franz'z book, The Feminine in Fairy Tales. In her discussion of the story of Vasilisa, the Beautiful, Von Franz notes that institutionalized magic, something that has been "codified" by rote learning and/or "book learned" is powerless against natural, instinctual magic, as represented by an animal friend, a horse, in the fairy tale. Dany, like Vasilisa, has a need to enter the HOTU and brings her animal friend, Drogon with her. This is significant because Drogon embodies the power of the instinctual magic over something that MMD undoubtedly had to learn by rote, or the institutional magic represented by the HOTU. Dany with Drogon ultimately destroys the HOTU because their natural magic is "living wisdom." It does not belong to the past or future, but is eternally present; it doesn't age or decay.

This leads to the idea of rotten inside and out. This dried decaying place with its dried and decaying inhabitants reveals the sterility of their institutional power. It is all about its past and is striving for a revitalized future through the use of Dany and Drogon. Martin skillfully employs this rotten and decaying institution in juxtaposition with its name, The House of the Undying. They may never die, but there is little life left in them because of their obsession with the past and desire for a future.

This, of course leads me to the Blue Heart which Martin uses both literally and figuratively the HOTU's collective center. The heart is our organ associated, under normal circumstances, with the color red, as it pumps blood. Here, Martin plays with "normal". Yes, it is at the seeming center of this body, as it would be in any human body, but it floats and is blue. Floating suggests that this heart is fading, as in floating away, like dust motes or puffs of smoke. It seems to transcend the ground without complete transcendence. The color blue is a rare color. The ocean and the sky are just about the only things we can see on a daily basis that are blue without assistance of dye. Blue is rare and in the HOTU's case, perhaps rarefied. Blue is the color of eternity, beyond the earth or deep in the ocean. Consequently, the color blue is associated with the highest value, such as the blue ribbon or blue blood or a blue plate special. But the color blue is also associated with sadness, such as "feeling blue" or the color of a bruise, or singing the blues. A blue note is a flat dropped into a major key. It changes the tone from the straightforward .to the complex with its addition in a major melody. The blue heart here is just such a change, to quote Cole Porter, "But how strange the change from major to minor. . . "(Every Time We Say Goodbye). Porter matches the quoted lyric with a dropped flat in the melody and the result is haunting. The effect achieved by Martin with this symbol is similar with the blue heart.

Which brings me to the number three. The number three, interestingly enough is associated with the heart. In less modern times, the heart was one of three organs in the vertical scheme of the body: the brain, the heart, and the sexual organs. The heart is the center of the three. As it is in the center it partakes some meaning of the other two organs, the brain and the genitals. From poetry to greeting cards, the heart aligns the head and the private parts. It becomes a "living symbol" rather than just an organ with a vital job. We may say or hear, "I love you with all my heart." The heart and/or the number three can represent spiritual synthesis, a solution to the conflicts in dualism.

I must end here as I am out of time.

Wow - I love this, thank you for sharing. I'm going to tag my friend sercreighton because him and I have been discussing this chapter in detail for a long time.

Re: Nature of Magic

I haven't read Von Franz' book but I love the idea of natural magic vs. learned magic. I would consider both Bran and Dany naturally magic, Bran has had some teaching but the magic is all his. On the other hand you have people like Mirri and Mel are learned in magic but I don't think they were born with it.

Love this:

"Dany with Drogon ultimately destroys the HOTU because their natural magic is "living wisdom." It does not belong to the past or future, but is eternally present; it doesn't age or decay."

Dany's destruction of the HOTU is very thematic within her story arc. Dany is seen as someone who is helping to do away with the old and decaying practices of the Planetos. This of course is more obviously representative of her war against slaver. Dany in many ways is the antithesis to the decay world, she is most certainly an anthithesis to the Old Valyrians who once use their dragons to enslave people, while Dany now uses the to free people. Note: that Jon parallels Dany in this in his arc with the Wildlings, he is also trying to break the old and archaic ways of doing things.

So, I've come to believe that the rotting blue heart Dany sees in the HOTU is a representation of the Heart of Winter. If you think about it throughout Dany's arc she has been metaphorically preparing to fight the Others (while Jon parallels her by literally fighting the others).

In the HOTU the Undying are seeking to consume Dany's life force, the fire and the life within her. They are trying to tear her apart as the Wights do with people. They are death and decay the way the Others are. I've refer to the Others as Slavers of the Dead and if you note when the Undying try to tear Dany apart it's in the moment where she feels ecstatic about freeing the slavers of Yunkai (although she won't know that for another book). In the show we see this more literally when Pyat literally chains Dany to the House of the Undying and it is her dragons that set her (and eventually will set others) free. Throughout her journey she encounters the dead, the Undying and the slaver of Slaver's Bay and like I said GRRM has been metaphorically preparing her to fight the Others and the Others as Slaver's of the Dead. Additionally, Dany's next enemy or foil will probably be Euron, a man both connected to slavery and the Undying.

Regarding your amazing observation about the heart and the number three. Remember in Drogo's pyre how Dany aranged the eggs? She places one next to his head, one next to his heart and one in between his legs.

I think GRRM was thinking what you were thinking.

Jul 16, 2016 12:49:31 GMT -5 izzue said:

There are so many parts of HOTU that seem to have been pretty much universally accepted, then dismissed, as if "Yeah, that's it. That's what it means. Now, moving on to something else." It's so nice to have fresh insights and discussions.

moiaf , thank you for your very comprehensive, in-depth analysis. Your insights are amazing, though I know I will need to go back and reread it, too.

khaella , I love your very interesting information about ironwood, and I think that it will be playing a vital role in the books to come. I'd love to see a thread on this, and maybe the lore/significance surrounding other woods and metals in ASOIAF as well. I don't think Martin threw in any references haphazardly, I think they're inextricably tied together. I'd love to discover what link there might be to HOBAW.

blisscraft , I love your work with the symbols in the passage. My nephew was tragically born without a strong, solid wall between the left ventricle and the right ventricle of his heart; consequently his blood didn't get pumped in a proper figure 8 pattern and traveled primarily from heart to body to heart to body without going to the lungs nearly often enough. The point is that he always literally 'looked blue' without all the fresh blood and life-sustaining oxygen he needed. Your discussion of the blue heart brings back that vivid memory and rings so true.

You're very welcome!

Jul 17, 2016 11:23:33 GMT -5 blisscraft said:

Thank you, izzue and khaella for you acknowledgement and kind words. Izzue - so sorry to hear about your nephew.

I wanted to get back, briefly, to the number three. It is an important number in Martin's world and is associated not only with Dany, but also Jon and Tyrion. First of all, it seems that Martin's grouping of the number three with these three, repeats itself again and again. For example, all three have lost their mothers at their respective births. Martin emphasizes this tragic loss only with these three characters. The consequence of this powerful and profound loss molds each into the "adult" (I use the word "adult" in quotations because Dany and Jon are both so young at this point in the story) they become. With Dany in this particular chapter, we see the echo of this loss in the house with the red door. (Izzue's noted #19). I don't want to get too clinical, but the house with the red door can easily symbolize a place of birth from which we have exited, but cannot reenter as much as we might desire it, as the child in her vision. It is the past.

Moiaf - has fully elaborated all of the "threes" in Dany's vision and I think her analysis is worth noting as a reader progresses through the text. It is a little mystery Martin has planted as neatly and as intriguingly as the identity of Jon's mother.

Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, will be the three heads of the dragon, in my opinion. The main reason I have come to this conclusion has to do with the fact noted above to the loss of their mothers at birth. Generally, in myth and fairy tale when one loses their physical mother to death, the hero or heroine acquires, usually through some mystical or magical means, a protector, in the form of an animal. The animal is either supernaturally gifted, like a horse that speaks (and I don't mean "Mr. Ed.") or an other worldly creature, as in this case, a dragon or three. I would elaborate further on this, but I would like to stick with the thread's topic and the acquisition of the animal (in this case the three dragons) remains to unfold in the main story. So it isn't quite ripe.

Briefly back to the number three, (please bear with me). I wrote above that the number three is a solution the the problem of dualism. The conflict inherent in a union of opposites, female and male, black and white, day and night, etc. . . can be overcome by the "transcendent third." Note that the final third in each of these three couplings, at izzue's #8, in each is love. It is love that solves the problem and antagonism in dualism and creates transcendence and/or ascendance above the struggle.

Finally, just a couple of notes about gold and silver; rubies and sapphires. Beginning with gold, like the color blue, it is rare in nature. Consequently, it, like blue is highly prized, think of " the gold ring," "the golden egg," "the golden crown." Of course, Martin throws the value on its head again in this chapter by referring to the "crown of gold" given to Viserys. Like Midas's touch, what is golden may carry disaster and death. Especially, if one, like Viserys, is striving only for gold because he feels entitled to it. (The Greyjoys, use this to devalue gold, as in their culture, paying the "gold price" has less value than paying the "iron price.")

Silver is an interesting metal because, though less valuable than gold, it has a superior value chemically. Silver has natural antibiotic properties and was used in the past to fight infection. Some still use it as you can find it in your nearest relaxed and groovy health food store. However, like anything else, too much of it can cause poisoning. The result of silver poisoning it to literally turn blue. I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.

Gold is the color associated with the sun, silver with the moon. These colors seem, once again to refer to dualism in this chapter, like the weirwood and ebony, white and black etc. . .

As to rubies and sapphires - Rubies and their red color is part of Dany's sigil and a powerful textual reference to Dany's brother Rhaegar. Also, according to the ancient Greeks, the "mother of all gemstones." Rome supplied the origin of our word "ruby" meaning red in Latin (rubeus). Also, the Romans called the ruby a "flower among gemstones." Because of their red color, rubies are associated with the genitals and the heart. You can see why "mother," and "flower," are references to the ruby. All of this redness suggests once again the heart. The red heart, like the lotus and the rose, represent the hidden enfolded center beneath the surface of the outside world. You see this in religious iconography, like the "sacred heart."

Sapphires may come in other colors, but the most highly valued color is blue. I cannot find a reference to sapphires being associate with lying. Most of the material I have in my notes involves sapphires' high status and value, but the second to ruby in value. Also, sapphires are associated with the crown of the head, and became a favorite stone to put in royals' crowns. There is a parallel here with the colors red and blue, as well as with gold, the highest in value, and silver, second in value to gold. This is a little off topic, but the "true blue" aspect of sapphires is one of the reasons I think Martin chose it as the home of Brienne.

One last thing, the line, "Grey lips smiling sadly" has always seemed to be Greyjoy. The color grey combined with a sad smile: Greyjoy. Maybe this is too obvious for Martin's writing. :cheers:

Speaking of dualism in the number three, in the HOTU we see that Dany hear the voices calling out to her and what she hears is:

“… mother of dragons … came a voice, part whisper and part moan … dragons … dragons … dragons … other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child.”

Male, female, child, hmmm….

Also, Dany herself is trying to find balance between her role as a mother and her role as a dragon. She is constantly struggling with these two sides of herself. I wrote an essay about this. I'll post it today if I have time.

blisscraft
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The House of the Undying Jul 18, 2016 9:33:46 GMT -5 moiaf and khaella like this

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Post by blisscraft on Jul 18, 2016 9:33:46 GMT -5

moiaf - Thank you, too, for your appreciation of my contribution. As for Martin and the nature of magic you refer to throughout your analysis, especially your fantastic observation about Dany's placement of the eggs at Drogo's head, heart, and genitals, his story seems filled with this theme. It's one of the most fascinating aspects of the books. As I'm sure you know, Martin was raised Roman Catholic. As a person who, like Martin, was inculcated at an early age with the Roman Church's religious iconography, the Church's power lies in the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Martin is attuned to this idea and he constantly uses that power to reinforce one of his other themes which you also noted: usurpation or, more bluntly, "out with the old and in with the new." He seems to be a proponent of revolution and all the ways that you cited are apart of that idea: the old; slavers, vs. the new; Dany, and the old; NW vs. Wildings, against the new; Jon's fight to save human beings, including the Wildings, from the WW.

I also agree with you about the natural magic within other characters like Bran. I believe Arya possesses this living power, as well. Her Nymeria dreams, come to mind in this regard. Bran seems to learning, less by rote or rhetoric, to tap into his natural abilities, rather than to simply be a student of magic. After all, if the TV show has taught us anything as to what awaits Bran and his relationship with the 3ER, it's that Bran is called to his "guru." He does not seek a guru out as a student would. Bran is compelled, like Dany is to erect the pyre and place the three dragons eggs, just so. The power seeking all of them, including Jon, is alive, present and irresistible.

One other thing having to do with the HOTU. The members' blue lips, seem to be blue because they are cold. As, khaella noted above, blue is also associated with the cold, like the WW and their preternaturally blue eyes. In this regard, it reminds me of an absence of passion. Cold and calculating, if you will. Frozen, and consequently, without feeling. This reminds me of Maeter Aemon's comment that "cold preserves." It does, indeed. But, cold inhibits life and only seems to preserve the remains. The material as opposed to the spiritual.

A side note about silver poisoning turning a person blue, I forgot to add that if one is so poisoned, although it is not fatal, the color blue is permanent.

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The House of the Undying Jul 18, 2016 15:51:36 GMT -5 moiaf and blisscraft like this

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Post by khaella on Jul 18, 2016 15:51:36 GMT -5

blisscraft, That was an excellent post, and once again you have given me so much to think about. You mentioned that you don't have any references to sapphires being associated with lying, I don't know if it is 100% but it is what I've noticed so far. There is one mention that has been spinning me in circles, but I will get to that. Here are the passages where I have noticed sapphires leading to lies:

-The very first mention of sapphires is when Ned goes into Tobho Mott's place, in Eddard VI, AGOT. Tobho wears a sapphire that is as large as a pigeon's egg, which makes me wonder if there is more going on with him since large gems usually means a glamour is being used. Tobho also has the black and white doors which is very interesting. Tobho claims that he doesn't know who funded Gendry, but we know he does. There could be a few different lies here. Tobho himself could be the lie, or it could just be about Gendry (I need to re-read this chapter). Now, I don't know if Tobho will ever come back into the story, but it seems likely that he will since he is the only man in Westeros who knows how to re-work Valyrian steel and we know that there is going to be a HUGE demand for that. I'm sure Gendry learned some things, but Tobho will be more useful here.

-Joffrey is wearing a crown with sapphires in it when he has dinner with Sansa at the Hand's Tourney for the first time since the incident with Nymeria and Lady. Sansa thinks that he is acting like a perfect prince when we know that he is anything but.

-Loras has sapphires in his breast plate at the Tourney of the Hand. This is when he knowingly uses a mare in heat to distract the Mountain's horse.

-Lysa is wearing sapphires when Tyrion's "trial" happens. Lysa blames Tyrion for poisoning Jon Arryn, but in truth, it's her.

-Jon compares Othor's eyes to sapphires when he finds his body, but he isn't really dead.

-Jaime uses sapphires to save Brienne's honor. Brienne uses the same lie later to try and save Pod.

-When Sansa is talking with Olenna and Margaery about wedding a Tyrell, Sansa immediately thinks of Loras and his sapphires, which would be a sham of a marriage.

-Lysa wears sapphires when she confronts Sansa about "stealing her man". Lysa accuses Sansa of having kissed Petyr, but if she was watching, like she said she was, then she would have known that Petyr kissed Sansa. This was something that Lysa didn't want to see and of course blamed the "other woman".

-Every time we see Ilyrio his sapphire ring(s) are always mentioned, and we know he is always lying.

-My favorite one, and the one that makes my mind spin in circles, is when Jon asks Mance if he is a true king and Mance replied with: "I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."

What is Mance's lie? I have read the theory that Mance is Rhaegar, but I don't know if I can believe that. Though in truth I haven't read that theory thoroughly, so it could have some good points (they do both inspire loyalty, sing, play the harp, and fight fiercly). But what I wonder the most is, what would Mance be lying about? There is always the chance that sapphires could mean something else to other characters, or I am completely wrong with this theory of sapphires. Maybe there is a connection between the blue of sapphires and the blue of death. Jon letting the Wildlings through led to Mance's "death" and when Jon sees Othor's eyes and compares them to sapphires it could be using both death and lies. This could also have some death meaning in the chapter where Ned meets Tobho Mott. Ned hunting down Robert's bastards led to his death so the sapphire there could be telling us that Ned's death is coming soon. Either way, I still think that there is more to Tobho Mott.

There are many more mentions of sapphires, but theses are the ones that I have really looked into so far.

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The House of the Undying Jul 19, 2016 0:07:57 GMT -5 khaella likes this

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Post by izzue on Jul 19, 2016 0:07:57 GMT -5

Wonderful research on sapphires, khaella ! I wonder how the Sapphire Isle fits into it all, though we know its name has nothing to do with sapphires, as Jaime told Locke, but the deep blue of the sea. Still, I don't think Martin would create strong symbolism around an element, then throw in one other instance of that element/symbol that has nothing to do with the rest of it. Tarth could have been called anything but the Sapphire Isle.

So many good insights from everyone, and I've been given so much to think about! I'm adding some info on the Natural Magic that blisscraft mentioned, just haven't had a chance to put it together yet.

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The House of the Undying Jul 19, 2016 7:08:19 GMT -5 blisscraft and khaella like this

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Post by moiaf on Jul 19, 2016 7:08:19 GMT -5

Jul 18, 2016 9:33:46 GMT -5 blisscraft said:

One other thing having to do with the HOTU. The members' blue lips, seem to be blue because they are cold. As, khaella noted above, blue is also associated with the cold, like the WW and their preternaturally blue eyes. In this regard, it reminds me of an absence of passion. Cold and calculating, if you will. Frozen, and consequently, without feeling. This reminds me of Maeter Aemon's comment that "cold preserves." It does, indeed. But, cold inhibits life and only seems to preserve the remains. The material as opposed to the spiritual.

When I was a newby in the fandom that quote by Maester Aemon was being used a lot to show how Jon was the "good guy" (preserve) and Dany was the "bad guy" (destroy) but this never rang true to me.

To preserve something is to keep it stagnant or in stasis, to keep something in place forever never to change. This doesn't seem like a good thing to me, of course there are things that we preserve in theory such democracy. But even that evolves with time, it isn't the same as it was two hundred years ago.

While on the other hand destruction can also be bad, it's also actually good, because when you destroy something you also create something else by default. I think of things like volcanoes, which are incredibly destructive, but their lava is what create land mass which is important. Or on a more fantastical sense you have the Phoenix, who from it's on destruction it is reborn again. So it's a bit more nuanced, I think.

A side note about silver poisoning turning a person blue, I forgot to add that if one is so poisoned, although it is not fatal, the color blue is permanent.

That is so freaky, note to self, do not get silver poisoning.

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$[user.badges]	User's list of badges.
$[user.birthday]	User's date of birth (if visible to you).
$[user.color]	Hex color of user's group. If user is not in a group this will return inherit.
$[user.custom_title]	User's custom title.
$[user.email]	User's email (if visible to you).
$[user.gender.image]	Image associated with the gender selected in the user's profile (if available).
$[user.gender.text]	Name of gender selected in the user's profile (if available).
$[user.group.name]	Name of user's current display group.
$[user.group.stars]	Star images associated with user's current display group.
$[user.id]	User's numerical ID.
$[user.instant_messenger]	User's list of instant messengers specified in their profile (if available).
$[user.invisible]	Returns 1 if a user is invisible. More useful for Javascript.
$[user.ip]	User's IP address (if visible to you).
$[user.is_online]	Returns Member is Online if user is currently online.
$[user.is_staff]	Returns 1 if a user is designated as staff. More useful for Javascript.
$[user.last_online]	Timestamp showing when user was last online.
$[user.likes]	Number of likes this user's posts have received.
$[user.location]	Location specified in user's profile.
$[user.name]	User's display name in plain text.
$[user.personal_text]	User's most recent status.
$[user.posts]	User's post count.
$[user.rank.name]	User's current posting rank.
$[user.rank.stars]	Star images associated with user's current posting rank.
$[user.registered_on]	Timestamp showing the date/time the user registered on the forum.
$[user.registered_on_short]	Condensed version of user's registration date.
$[user.social_network]	User's list of social networks specified in their profile (if available).
$[user.username]	Outputs the user's login username in plain text.
$[user.warning.bar]	User's warning bar (if it exists).
$[user.warning.level]	User's current warning level (if visible to you).
$[user.website]	Website specified in user's profile.

Post by izzue on Jul 11, 2016 17:24:18 GMT -5

Post by moiaf on Jul 11, 2016 18:09:08 GMT -5

Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 11, 2016 22:10:54 GMT -5

Post by moiaf on Jul 12, 2016 8:28:16 GMT -5

Post by khaella on Jul 15, 2016 12:21:07 GMT -5

Post by blisscraft on Jul 16, 2016 11:13:56 GMT -5

Post by izzue on Jul 16, 2016 12:49:31 GMT -5

Post by khaella on Jul 16, 2016 12:50:49 GMT -5

Post by khaella on Jul 16, 2016 12:52:16 GMT -5

Post by blisscraft on Jul 17, 2016 11:23:33 GMT -5

Post by moiaf on Jul 18, 2016 8:10:27 GMT -5

Post by blisscraft on Jul 18, 2016 9:33:46 GMT -5

Post by khaella on Jul 18, 2016 15:51:36 GMT -5

Post by izzue on Jul 19, 2016 0:07:57 GMT -5

Post by moiaf on Jul 19, 2016 7:08:19 GMT -5

Shoutbox