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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 9:00:09 GMT -5
We've all seen the Hooded Man threads on any number of aSoIaF communities and there are tons of opinions as to who the man Theon meets as he's walking in the snowstorm is. Many of these threads dissolve into crackpottery and tinfoil...but given the hints throughout the books, I've formed an opinion. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks on the subject without all of the hype that seems to follow this discussion around the web. Who is your candidate? Can you back it up with text? Even if it just a feeling...why do you think your character is correct? Even if I haven't named your choice in the poll, I'd like to hear from you. Convince me I've left your guy out unfairly. I'm in the Hallis Mollen camp myself. Theon, despite all of the torture and mental cruelty hasn't really had a psychotic episode. He seems to be fully aware of what is happening and his observations are accurate about what is going on around him. I can't see a mental break without some other indicators. He sees nuances in facial expressions and knows that there's secrets all around him. The title of the chapter is The Ghost in Winterfell....and I do think Theon is that Ghost, (capitilized) but with GRRM, things don't have just one meaning and there are multiple other 'ghosts' there too. My reasoning for it being Hallis... 1. Catelyn sent him north with Ned's bones and we've not heard a word from him since. 2. Little Walder was killed and Mance's women denied having a hand in it. It was said that the kid was dicing and won some money that he wanted to collect...10 year old kids winning dice money from hardened soldiers??? Sounds like a set up to me...and this means one less Frey in the world. In Catelyn's small corner of the camp, Shadd was slicing carrots into a kettle, Hal Mollen was dicing with three of his Winterfell men, and Lucas Blackwood sat sharpening his dagger. "Lady Stark," Lucas said when he saw her, "Mollen says it is to be battle at dawn.""Under that ruined keep, my lord," replied Big Walder. "The one with the old gargoyles." The boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood. "I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver."
"He never said, my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice." The Frey boy hesitated. "It was some White Harbor men who taught dice. I couldn't say which ones, but it was them."
White Harbor men? Well, there is a mummer's farce being played out, but it might just be Big Walder looking for someone to blame. Regardless, Mollen was a known dicer and Little Walder went to collect on a dice debt. 3. When Theon meets the hooded man, he's not afraid and even takes his glove off to show his maimed hand unbidden. Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." "I'm not. I never … I was ironborn." "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?" "The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me." The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then." It was shortly after that that he balked when Lady Dustin asked the same thing.
Lady Dustin spoke up. "Take off your gloves." Theon glanced up sharply. "Please, no. I … I …"Whoever it was, I think Theon thought he was seeing a ghost...someone who shouldn't be there and should probably be dead. Mollen would have had the know-how to make it north unseen...(Lady Dustin claimed she was keeping a watch) It could be that he went to White Harbor instead of Moat Cailin and Manderly brought him to Winterfell with his entourage. I also think that Lady Dustin is proclaiming her hatred of the Starks a bit too loudly and a bit too often to be entirely believable...but that is neither here nor there. 4. Catelyn thinks how HM always says obvious things. This seems in keeping with how the conversation goes between Theon and the hooded man ('hooded man' hm= HM..another clue?) "A tourney," Hal Mollen declared. He had a penchant for loudly announcing the obvious.
The HM called him a Turncloak and Kinslayer...Winterfell retainers would know about Theon's wenching habits...Manderly knows that Bran and Rickon live. GRRM has said that even kinslaying unknowingly is cursed...I do think one of the miller's boys might have been Theon's. So anyone who would be in Manderly's inner circle would know that Theon didn't kill the Starks. Harwin is my second choice. He was the last Winterfell man to see Arya alive and LSH could have sent him north when word of 'Arya's' wedding reached the Riverlands. It is either Hal or Harwin that is standing with LSH at Briennne's trial, so the other one could be headed north. My first choce is still Hallis, but Harwin is a possibility. Anyway, that's my take on the Hooded Man. I'd like to hear your theories.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 12:48:24 GMT -5
I lean more towards Harwin. I find it a little hard to believe that Lady Stoneheart wouldn't send someone North after hearing that "Arya" is now married (or soon to be married, if she sent him earlier) to the son of the man who murdered Robb in front of her. Seeing as how Harwin isn't with them at Brienne's meeting I think she'd send someone with experience in Winterfell. I also think if she's sent Tom off to Riverrun it makes sense if she sends someone to Winterfell.
My second choice would probably just be Theon himself. I find it quite interesting (as you pointed out) that he fearlessly and willingly takes off his glove to the strange figure, but is more shy when given a specific order to do so. There's definitely something odd there.
As for why not the others; - Glover, I suspect, is still at White Harbour waiting for Davos to return in case Manderly himself doesn't make it. He was a witness to that secret meeting, and so it would be more credible if he presented Rickon rather than just Davos himself doing it. (Of course, Davos might not go back to WH or he might not even get Rickon in the end, but that's another question)
- Howland Reed is still in Greywater Watch, and I think Hal has joined him there. It's probably one of the safest places in the North, and because it's south of Barrowton, Lady Dustin wouldn't know (I think she's got people watching the Kingsroad). There's also the fact that Winterfell is in control of the Boltons so it makes sense that Hal stops well before reaching there. I think Howland will go to Winterfell at the end of Winds along with Robb's will and Ned's bones and make Jon the King in the North.
- I think Benjen is still beyond the Wall, though I've got no idea what he's doing or what his future role will be.
- I also don't think there's been enough time for the Blackfish to get that far North since fleeing Riverrun. I think his role in Winds will be to ambush the forces taking Jeyne Westerling back to the Crag.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 13:14:37 GMT -5
There is a good chance Lady Stoneheart actually knows that fArya is fake, because she is still looking for her daughter in the Riverlands. She knew Arya was seen with Sandor Clegane near Saltpans not so long ago, and she sent her men there to track them down.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 13:17:44 GMT -5
There's a Northman translating for Cat at Brienne's trial...he can understand her. That's why I suspect Harwin was there, but ladygwynhyfvar has done the math and says that the timeline works for him to appear both places. That means that Harwin is a strong candidate too. Hal being in Greywater Watch with Howland, the will, and the rest of Robb's bannemen and women is very compelling as well. The dicing thing just seems like a set up to me. Soldiers teaching a kid to dice might let him win a few coppers to get him excited.... but silver???? I don't think so. There's more to that story and getting the Freys to explode might bring things to a head...which it did. The whole dicing incident smells of a set-up. GRRM likes to give us Easter eggs and hints...that's why his books take so long and why I'm personally not buying the Theon Durden theory. There isn't any indication that Theon has had a mental break, sure he has PTSD and been tortured within an inch of his life, but his inner monologue and how others interact with him gives me no hint of that...if someone has textural proof, I'll reconsider. Oh, and in my OP, I said that HM (Hooded Man/Hallis Mollen), but that connection isn't accurate. Fandom has tagged him the Hooded Man...not GRRM. So throw that out the window.
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Post by lordcarson on Jul 13, 2016 13:20:10 GMT -5
I'm loving all this book talk I never really gathered my own theory on this, but I do like the Hallis and Harwin ones. I'm also not sure it will ever be revealed, but those two have been the most persuasive I've read. I lean towards Hallis because of all the evidence that Balerion's Whiskers mentioned, plus I've always been intrigued by the fact that Theon has been mentioned to be terrible at remembering and recognizing faces. That, combined with everything that Ramsay has put him through, is the most convincing part for me. Basically take everything that was mentioned in BW's third point and add the fact that Theon has poor facial recognition and you get a perfect reason as to why it seems like the Hooded Man feels familiar, yet isn't recognized.
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Post by lordcarson on Jul 13, 2016 13:22:46 GMT -5
I'm in the Hallis Mollen camp myself. Theon, despite all of the torture and mental cruelty hasn't really had a psychotic episode. He seems to be fully aware of what is happening and his observations are accurate about what is going on around him. I can't see a mental break without some other indicators. He sees nuances in facial expressions and knows that there's secrets all around him. Also, this is one of the more interesting minor parts about Theon's character. He's not great at identifying faces (probably because he thinks he's too noble for them), but he's great at reading emotions and expressions on those faces. Just a little detail that makes Theon even more great.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 13:24:02 GMT -5
There is a good chance Lady Stoneheart actually knows that fArya is fake, because she is still looking for her daughter in the Riverlands. I think the orphan inn that Gendry is guarding has been established to draw Arya. Children hear of a place of safety and gather there. Gendry knows Arya....and she knows him. She would reveal herself if she saw him there. While it is a good thing for the Riverlands orphans, I do think it was established with Arya in mind. So, @basil has a point. The BWB and Cat may possibly know that fArya is a fake.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 13:33:28 GMT -5
I think Theon knows who he is talking to. If you read this carefully, there is no sign that he does not know the man. He does not give us a name...but he's not looking at a stranger. The man calls him Theon...only a Winterfell man would do that right now. I believe Theon may be thinking he's seeing a ghost (another ghost in Winterfell)This man should be dead...he either went south with Ned, or went South with Robb and here he is standing across from Theon. Now this guy may not matter a fig when it comes to the story...he may walk right out of the scene, never to return and we've made a mountain out of a molehill...but I personally think he has a part to play in the next book. Here's the quote where they meet. There's really no indication one way or the other that Theon does, or does not recognize him. Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." "I'm not. I never … I was ironborn." "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?" "The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me." The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 13, 2016 13:41:18 GMT -5
I think I lean towards Hallis. When I first read that chapter, I thought Theon was seeing a figment of his own imagination. Then of course I fell into the blackhole that is the internet and landed on Hallis.
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Post by stannisforking299al on Jul 13, 2016 14:09:51 GMT -5
I hope it's Hallis. It's a loose thread that needs tying. Also, he's one of those forgotten characters like Devan Seaworth and Raynald Westering. Last indirect mention of him hints that Edwards remains (which he was guarding) are somewhere in the swamp of the neck. This could mean he is possibly working with Howland Reed and if the Grand Northern Conspiracy is to be believed, will play some role in the upcoming battle of ice. His being among the guests of House Bolton makes sense. On top of that, the hooded man seems to know Theon and also mocks him, somewhat giving away his hostility. 1) Hallis knows Theon 2) Hallis has a loose tongue Pretty sure that's a thin connection, but it makes a better case than most. The idea of it being a figment of Theon's imagination is slightly disappointing since all this speculation would be utterly pointless. Then again, it's just the kind of suffering GRRM enjoys inflicting in his readers, so I can see that happening
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 14:26:54 GMT -5
I suppose my main argument against Hallis is that I just don't see a reason for him to be there. I'd forgotten about the Saltpans detail, but it wouldn't hurt to check out this "Arya" in Winterfell. But the part I must have just glossed over was the northman speaking for Stoneheart, so that's definitely a strong argument against Harwin. I now really don't know who it could be As for the dicing, I just think that's coincidental honestly - I'm sure there's more than one person in the North who knows how to play it so that just seems like a thin connection to me.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 15:16:11 GMT -5
I'm sure there's more than one person in the North who knows how to play it so that just seems like a thin connection to me. Oh, I agree...but GRRM has made a point to tell us that Hal dices...I'm sure they all do, but George used him for some reason. And it may not mean a thing, just like you said...we're to the point we're all wearing tinfoil hats about something or other in these books...I think I want a feather in mine. :tinfoil:
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 13, 2016 15:29:35 GMT -5
Here's the quote from Brienne's trial...she specifically notices a young Northman, which I think applies better to Harwin than Hallis. Harwin rode at rings with Robb and Jon, so he's closer in age to them.
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Post by ladygwynhyfvar on Jul 13, 2016 20:50:36 GMT -5
Well hey, this is one of my favorite topics! And as Balerion's Whiskers has hinted, I'm a fan of Harwin. I'm going to copy in a few of the bullet points I find most pertinent, a couple of which have already come up in the discussion-- -- Lady Stoneheart has been shown to be looking for Arya in the Riverlands, questioning captives and collecting orphans who are then brought to the Inn at the Crossroads -- "Arya" was brought north by Roose Bolton in a closed carriage some weeks after the Red Wedding, news of this would most likely have reached the BwB -- Harwin is the only member of the BwB who not only knows Arya, but knows Winterfell and the north and might be entrusted with a mission to suss out the truth of this girl with Roose -- Harwin is last mentioned on page three days after the RW, leaving him plenty of time to reach WF months later **note- even if he is the "young northman" at Brienne's trial there is still a couple of months between that & the HM sighting according to this timeline Although I have to say that I lean towards the "sheepskin jerkin" guy being Hal Mollen because of this: ...paired with the fact that Hal Mollen witnessed Brienne's vow to Catelyn. -- It seems like the HM recognizes Theon, and his words are consistent with things we might expect Harwin to say to him -- Does Theon recognize him? Maybe not, since it's been a few years since they last saw each other and Harwin is changed-- even Arya didn't recognize him at first. But more interestingly, consider this if he did recognize the man -- the chapter is titled "A Ghost in Winterfell" and yes, it refers to Theon, who repeatedly thinks to himself "there are ghosts in Winterfell and I am one of them" But note the use of the plural and collective- and then consider that on two occasions Theon thinks to himself that Harwin (among others who went south with Ned) is dead. With that in mind consider something Theon says to Abel's spear wives in the godswood-- "The ghosts," he blurted. "They whisper to me. They … they know my name." Consider that the Theon DwD chapter titles actually have dual meanings (there are some interesting GRRM comments on this) and that in this case the use of the indefinite article "a" in the title as opposed to the definite article "the" indicates one of a plurality. In other words "Winterfell is full of ghosts, and [Theon is only] one of them." Probably exactly what he might be expected to think if he saw someone at WF that he had assumed to be dead these past two years.
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Post by dariopatke on Jul 14, 2016 3:23:52 GMT -5
Robett Glover, it is known. He is one of couple of people who actually know Theon is a kinslayer. Thetr are other things that prove this, but I really cant remember them now and I am in hurry so I will post them when I catch some time.
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