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Post by dariopatke on Jul 27, 2016 21:23:23 GMT -5
Now we know from Theon I DwD that Freys and Manderlys are being sent to attack Stannis. In Asha I we saw that Hosteen and his men arrived, but in Theon I WoW hensaid Ramsay will be there, too. In text Jeyne will be called Arya because as far as Roose and other Northmen are concerned girl is Arya. At first I dissmissed this as Theon talking anything to save his life. But then I thought a little and came to idea that seems like somehing Roose would do. He is well aware of his position in WF and Ramsays reputation amd his relations with other Northmem (Dustins and Ryswells are most important). He told Theon a lot of important things in Reek III, but he told them for reason. First thing he said is that he knows Theons task. Then he sais he controls Ramsays men (who are also in huge trouble now because Sour Alyn and Grunt are dead people walking) which plants seed of suspicion in Ramsays head. Then he sais something weird: he knows Ramsay killed Domeric and will allow him to kill any son he has with Walda. This prevents Ramsay from thinking to kill Roose and makes Ramsay feel safe, just like Robb felt safe... and Tywin before (although that didnt go so well, but you see my point). So what does Roose plan to do with Ramsay? My guess is wait for Arya to have a son and then kil Ramsay. Ramsay cant be lord of WF, too unreliable, and Roose is smart enough to see that it means destruction of house Bolton. But now Arya is gone and Ramsay is no longer needed. If Ramsay somehow dies in battle (which is not unlikely amd Roosemis probably well aware of it) he can make his heirs (I think he planned to raise an worthy heir anyway, he is not that old after all) and have better situation among Northmen (most importantly Dustins and Ryswells) and he will have less mouth to feed (we saw in Theons chapters that they would have had a food problem, not serious lkke Stannis, but a problem anyway) amd WF can be defended with 3k men against 4 or 5k freezing men (maybe less). If Ramsay wins he can kill him differently, but it would have been suspicious, this was perfect because we have Stannis on one side and Hosteen and Ramsay on other and there is a proverb: An army of donkeys led by lion beats army of lions led by donkey. But what about Arya? Well if she dies, shs dies. But if she lives there are two options: 1) Ramsay and Freys are defeated so Walda lost her purpose and Arya has a purpose (kill Walda and marry Arya himself). 2) Ramsay wins so he can pull RW 2.0 and kill Freys while they were feasting after victory. This would please Northmen (they might even take a part in revenge). He can also sally out to attack them to avoid breaking of guest rights, but it doesnt matter since this scenario wont happen. Still has Arya for himself. So he can chose between Ramsay hurting Arya and him marring her and treating her like she deserves (which he would clearly do), one pisses off Northmen, other makes them tolerate them, but this scenario is least likely of all 4 and I guess Roose doesnt count this to happen at all because this is worst case scenario (bunch of Freys live, Ramsay lives and Arya is back). If Arya dies or escapes for good there are two more scenarios: 1) Ramsay dies and he marries woman from North, maybe Lady Barbrey. 2) Ramsay wins and he stays married to Walda because only Ara is worth betraying Freys. But I think that Roose thinks it is most likely for Ramsay to die (not enough men facing superior commander with motivated army and his army is deeply divided) and him to search for another bride Arya or Barbrey most likely. To sum what I said: Ramsay can do much more damage than he can help and he can gain much more by sending him to find his bride and kill Stannis but in fact he is sending him to his death so he can restore peace in North. If Ramsay stays in WF he can only cause problems, big ones. So he has to die, but the best way is to die in battle because it makes Roose not being suspect (after all Roose did say Bolton men are his, they all can turn on him, like Gold Cloaks on Ned). Also it is worth mentioning that Roose can find some Mandon Moore with order to kill Ramsay in battle. Maybe a bit too confusing, feel free to ask me if you don't get some part. What do you think, will Roose send Ramsay to attack Stannis and what are his plans? I am looking forward to hear your opinion.
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Post by Diablotion on Jul 28, 2016 11:48:26 GMT -5
Now we know from Theon I DwD that Freys and Manderlys are being sent to attack Stannis. In Asha I we saw that Hosteen and his men arrived, but in Theon I WoW hensaid Ramsay will be there, too. In text Jeyne will be called Arya because as far as Roose and other Northmen are concerned girl is Arya. At first I dissmissed this as Theon talking anything to save his life. But then I thought a little and came to idea that seems like somehing Roose would do. He is well aware of his position in WF and Ramsays reputation amd his relations with other Northmem (Dustins and Ryswells are most important). He told Theon a lot of important things in Reek III, but he told them for reason. First thing he said is that he knows Theons task. Then he sais he controls Ramsays men (who are also in huge trouble now because Sour Alyn and Grunt are dead people walking) which plants seed of suspicion in Ramsays head. Then he sais something weird: he knows Ramsay killed Domeric and will allow him to kill any son he has with Walda. This prevents Ramsay from thinking to kill Roose and makes Ramsay feel safe, just like Robb felt safe... and Tywin before (although that didnt go so well, but you see my point). So what does Roose plan to do with Ramsay? My guess is wait for Arya to have a son and then kil Ramsay. Ramsay cant be lord of WF, too unreliable, and Roose is smart enough to see that it means destruction of house Bolton. But now Arya is gone and Ramsay is no longer needed. If Ramsay somehow dies in battle (which is not unlikely amd Roosemis probably well aware of it) he can make his heirs (I think he planned to raise an worthy heir anyway, he is not that old after all) and have better situation among Northmen (most importantly Dustins and Ryswells) and he will have less mouth to feed (we saw in Theons chapters that they would have had a food problem, not serious lkke Stannis, but a problem anyway) amd WF can be defended with 3k men against 4 or 5k freezing men (maybe less). If Ramsay wins he can kill him differently, but it would have been suspicious, this was perfect because we have Stannis on one side and Hosteen and Ramsay on other and there is a proverb: An army of donkeys led by lion beats army of lions led by donkey. But what about Arya? Well if she dies, shs dies. But if she lives there are two options: 1) Ramsay and Freys are defeated so Walda lost her purpose and Arya has a purpose (kill Walda and marry Arya himself). 2) Ramsay wins so he can pull RW 2.0 and kill Freys while they were feasting after victory. This would please Northmen (they might even take a part in revenge). He can also sally out to attack them to avoid breaking of guest rights, but it doesnt matter since this scenario wont happen. Still has Arya for himself. So he can chose between Ramsay hurting Arya and him marring her and treating her like she deserves (which he would clearly do), one pisses off Northmen, other makes them tolerate them, but this scenario is least likely of all 4 and I guess Roose doesnt count this to happen at all because this is worst case scenario (bunch of Freys live, Ramsay lives and Arya is back). If Arya dies or escapes for good there are two more scenarios: 1) Ramsay dies and he marries woman from North, maybe Lady Barbrey. 2) Ramsay wins and he stays married to Walda because only Ara is worth betraying Freys. But I think that Roose thinks it is most likely for Ramsay to die (not enough men facing superior commander with motivated army and his army is deeply divided) and him to search for another bride Arya or Barbrey most likely. To sum what I said: Ramsay can do much more damage than he can help and he can gain much more by sending him to find his bride and kill Stannis but in fact he is sending him to his death so he can restore peace in North. If Ramsay stays in WF he can only cause problems, big ones. So he has to die, but the best way is to die in battle because it makes Roose not being suspect (after all Roose did say Bolton men are his, they all can turn on him, like Gold Cloaks on Ned). Also it is worth mentioning that Roose can find some Mandon Moore with order to kill Ramsay in battle. Maybe a bit too confusing, feel free to ask me if you don't get some part. What do you think, will Roose send Ramsay to attack Stannis and what are his plans? I am looking forward to hear your opinion. Ramsay might even be leading the Frey/Manderly charge straight into the Nightlamp tramp. Or perhaps Ramsay will lead a second charge and final charge against Stannis? Roose throwing Ramsay under the bus would be smart thinking from him. There will be conflict between Ramsay and Roose in TWOW and Walda giving birth to a son could trigger it, like it did on the show. We know that Roose is calculating, but he might still be killed by Ramsay. I always got this feeling that Roose doesn't feel that Ramsay would be a danger to him directly. He could make a massive mistake here. Roose also talks about the danger of having a young boy as an heir. What is Roose planning? The Northmen will never respect Ramsay, even if he slaughters the Frey remains. This would only happen if Roose would die. RW 2.0 is definitely happening but at the Twins. Tully loyalists, LSH and the BwB and the Northern captives will play a major part in this. LF revealing that she has Sansa or if Wyman's and Davos's plan works and they find Rickon, fArya is worthless. The Boltons won't get their hands on her anymore. Roose has to improvise now.
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Post by Envie on Jul 28, 2016 13:55:09 GMT -5
Roose also talks about the danger of having a young boy as an heir. I always thought that was the oddest thing Roose said and I never understood it. It's almost as if he's saying he doesn't care what happens to his legacy and knows Ramsay is going to screw it up? Why would he say that? I can only imagine it's to cover up whatever he's really thinking/planning. I almost think he's going to try and set Ramsay up somehow and it backfires. I suspect since they killed Roose off on the show, it may be the same in the book but done much differently and for a lot different reasons. They tend to cut everything off and simplify it on the show.
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Post by dariopatke on Jul 28, 2016 17:35:08 GMT -5
Ramsay might even be leading the Frey/Manderly charge straight into the Nightlamp tramp. Or perhaps Ramsay will lead a second charge and final charge against Stannis? Roose throwing Ramsay under the bus would be smart thinking from him. There will be conflict between Ramsay and Roose in TWOW and Walda giving birth to a son could trigger it, like it did on the show. We know that Roose is calculating, but he might still be killed by Ramsay. I always got this feeling that Roose doesn't feel that Ramsay would be a danger to him directly. He could make a massive mistake here. Roose also talks about the danger of having a young boy as an heir. What is Roose planning? The Northmen will never respect Ramsay, even if he slaughters the Frey remains. This would only happen if Roose would die. RW 2.0 is definitely happening but at the Twins. Tully loyalists, LSH and the BwB and the Northern captives will play a major part in this. LF revealing that she has Sansa or if Wyman's and Davos's plan works and they find Rickon, fArya is worthless. The Boltons won't get their hands on her anymore. Roose has to improvise now. I thought it at first, but Asha spotted ser Hosteen and not Ramsay, although it is expected to notice flayed man on banner and man dressed like one than knight with Twin towers on helmet. Perhaps Freys lead van (and get Nightlamped) and Stannis and likely Manderlys battle Ramsay and win (he cant have more than 1000 men under his command). I think books will be oposite from show, Roose said what you quoted to Theon knowing he will tell it to Ramsay. Ramsay now knows he will be lord of WF, Dreadfort and Hornwood and has nothing to fear. Also dont forget that he said Bastards boys are actually Rooses boys (makes him suspicious to him closest men and paranoid). The only certain thing is that both dies, show had Roose die first because of all battle of the bastards, but Jon is not the one attacking in books. I saod it as worst case scenario for Roose. Oh yes, cant wait to see it, Riverlanders sure know how to party. LF will eventually do it, so will ser Davos. She may be worthless in fuure, but I was trying to get into Rooses head, he doesnt know about anyone of them and as far as he knows there is still a chance for Arya to be saved. If not... lady Dustin is fine mathc, too. I always thought that was the oddest thing Roose said and I never understood it. It's almost as if he's saying he doesn't care what happens to his legacy and knows Ramsay is going to screw it up? Why would he say that? I can only imagine it's to cover up whatever he's really thinking/planning. I almost think he's going to try and set Ramsay up somehow and it backfires. I suspect since they killed Roose off on the show, it may be the same in the book but done much differently and for a lot different reasons. They tend to cut everything off and simplify it on the show. I wrote above why I think it is oposite. Roose is one of the most interesting characters, if someone outplays him I can only see Stannis to do it. Book Ramsay is not nearly as smart, handsome and good fighter as show Ramsay (imagine him having a duel with one of the best Ironborn reavers) and first and third are really important formour story. I just dont see him being smart enough to see whatever Roose is setting him and not that good fighter to survive battle (especially if some of Bolton men are ordered to kill him).
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Post by Envie on Jul 28, 2016 19:41:12 GMT -5
dariopatke - So you think in the book Roose will kill Ramsay instead? But then that means there will be no "Battle of the Bastards" like there was on the show. That's ok I guess, but what epic story takes it's place for Winterfell being won back by the Starks? I'll admit I like Roose Bolton as a character far more than Ramsay and was surprised they had him killed so easily by Ramsay poisoned by his enemies (@roose) on the show.
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Post by dariopatke on Jul 29, 2016 4:29:18 GMT -5
dariopatke - So you think in the book Roose will kill Ramsay instead? But then that means there will be no "Battle of the Bastards" like there was on the show. That's ok I guess, but what epic story takes it's place for Winterfell being won back by the Starks? I'll admit I like Roose Bolton as a character far more than Ramsay and was surprised they had him killed so easily by Ramsay poisoned by his enemies (@roose) on the show. Yup, and battle Stannis who will fake him death in order to lure out first Dustins and/or Ryswells and them Roose himself. I have a question, where are Mormonts and where are Ironborn ships Stannis siezed? I think Barrowton burns. I never said Stark wont retake WF, I think ser Davos is returning with Lord Rickon. Sadly I do not sse it how can Jon raise another army, entire North is ussed to full extent. And some wildlings are not enough and not certain that they will follow him in first place. Also, book wildlings have terrible equipment, heavy horsemen will crush them (like Stannis did). One question, didnt Tormund have some giants and mamooths that Jon sent to Eastwatch, they may be wildcard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 12:34:16 GMT -5
I don't think Snowbowl is going to happen in the books at all.
Wasn't it said in Theon preview chapter that Ramsay is coming for Stannis along with Wyman and the Freys?
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Post by dariopatke on Jul 29, 2016 14:18:26 GMT -5
I don't think Snowbowl is going to happen in the books at all. Wasn't it said in Theon preview chapter that Ramsay is coming for Stannis along with Wyman and the Freys? Well, Theon said it, but Roose didn't. My point is that Theon does not know if Ramsay is coming, but I think it is very likely.
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Post by stannisforking299al on Aug 8, 2016 13:53:43 GMT -5
I trust this is some sort of Typo in the threads title and you had meant to write "Stannis will kill Ramsay." These things happen. Honestly, I still think Roose will sacrafice Ramsay in a foolish attack on Stannis. Stannis wins with strong losses on his army. He marches on Winterfell where the Northern Lords betray the Boltons in Winterfell. Then we don't see the battle but instead get told that Stannis and his men died fighting. However there is a lot of suggestion that the Northerners betrayed him. Eventually Wyman Manderly (or someone else) confesses that they killed Stannis because only a stark can rule. Jon is named king and he plans to execute Wyman much like Robb executed Lord Karstark. It would be a nice parallel between Robb and Jon and would also clear Stannis and his forces away, much like in the show. All in all, I doubt Snowbowl happens in the show. I doubt Sansa kills Ramsay or The KotV save the day. I think they just wanted an epic battle. A lot of the story of Stannis in Book 5 was used for Jon/Sansa's army. It seems like they just wanted the Snowbowl battle to tie up the Northern story.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 13:59:38 GMT -5
I trust this is some sort of Typo in the threads title and you had meant to write "Stannis will kill Ramsay." These things happen. Honestly, I still think Roose will sacrafice Ramsay in a foolish attack on Stannis. Stannis wins with strong losses on his army. He marches on Winterfell where the Northern Lords betray the Boltons in Winterfell. Then we don't see the battle but instead get told that Stannis and his men died fighting. However there is a lot of suggestion that the Northerners betrayed him. Eventually Wyman Manderly (or someone else) confesses that they killed Stannis because only a stark can rule. Jon is named king and he plans to execute Wyman much like Robb executed Lord Karstark. It would be a nice parallel between Robb and Jon and would also clear Stannis and his forces away, much like in the show. All in all, I doubt Snowbowl happens in the show. I doubt Sansa kills Ramsay or The KotV save the day. I think they just wanted an epic battle. A lot of the story of Stannis in Book 5 was used for Jon/Sansa's army. It seems like they just wanted the Snowbowl battle to tie up the Northern story. Talking about typos... But yeah, it's told repeatedly in ADwD that the snow is too deep to march to Winterfell. That's the reason Stannis is stuck at the moment. There's no way the Vale armies can get there and miraculously save the day without the Boltons knowing.
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Post by dariopatke on Aug 9, 2016 4:02:51 GMT -5
I trust this is some sort of Typo in the threads title and you had meant to write "Stannis will kill Ramsay." These things happen. Honestly, I still think Roose will sacrafice Ramsay in a foolish attack on Stannis. Stannis wins with strong losses on his army. He marches on Winterfell where the Northern Lords betray the Boltons in Winterfell. Then we don't see the battle but instead get told that Stannis and his men died fighting. However there is a lot of suggestion that the Northerners betrayed him. Eventually Wyman Manderly (or someone else) confesses that they killed Stannis because only a stark can rule. Jon is named king and he plans to execute Wyman much like Robb executed Lord Karstark. It would be a nice parallel between Robb and Jon and would also clear Stannis and his forces away, much like in the show. All in all, I doubt Snowbowl happens in the show. I doubt Sansa kills Ramsay or The KotV save the day. I think they just wanted an epic battle. A lot of the story of Stannis in Book 5 was used for Jon/Sansa's army. It seems like they just wanted the Snowbowl battle to tie up the Northern story. This is one of three options I can see with his story and in all three he takes WF and eventually. Second one is that he returns to the Wall, maybe burns Shireen (though it would be more in his character to burn himself than her, more likely Mel does it in beggining of WoW) and dies defending his Kingdom. Third one is that he sails south with sellswords Massey got and retakes Dragonstone (or returns, something interesting is going on there at the moment) and battles Daenerys as blue eyed king with red sword. I prefer the second if he doesnt burn Shireen, he woukd die like a true hero. I am not sure if Northmen would be such ***** to kill a man who saved them from wildligs, got Deepwood Motte back in Glover hands and retook WF and maybe even Davos will bring Rickon.
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Post by Diablotion on Aug 9, 2016 9:03:15 GMT -5
I trust this is some sort of Typo in the threads title and you had meant to write "Stannis will kill Ramsay." These things happen. Honestly, I still think Roose will sacrafice Ramsay in a foolish attack on Stannis. Stannis wins with strong losses on his army. He marches on Winterfell where the Northern Lords betray the Boltons in Winterfell. Then we don't see the battle but instead get told that Stannis and his men died fighting. However there is a lot of suggestion that the Northerners betrayed him. Eventually Wyman Manderly (or someone else) confesses that they killed Stannis because only a stark can rule. Jon is named king and he plans to execute Wyman much like Robb executed Lord Karstark. It would be a nice parallel between Robb and Jon and would also clear Stannis and his forces away, much like in the show. All in all, I doubt Snowbowl happens in the show. I doubt Sansa kills Ramsay or The KotV save the day. I think they just wanted an epic battle. A lot of the story of Stannis in Book 5 was used for Jon/Sansa's army. It seems like they just wanted the Snowbowl battle to tie up the Northern story. That wouldn't be honorable at all. The Northeners might wait until Stannis is dead or something like that. Jon isn't gonna execute Manderly, don't be silly! No blade or axe can cut through all those chins. Why would Jon even execute Wyman and co? What happens in Winterfell might remain a mystery to us all.. Jon took some parts of Stannis's TDWD and TWOW story line. The Northeners might hand the kingdom over to Jon (after Rickon's death).
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