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Post by Envie on Aug 9, 2016 23:29:02 GMT -5
Episode 7: You Win or You Die
Ok guys, this is a last minute quick and dirty write up because I've been sick for a couple of days. In fact, I'm going to ask most of you to fill in the blanks. Yes I know this was a weaker episode, but there was still plenty of great symbolism and even a few Dany/Jon parallels in there! So here's the game: I will list all the scenes and main characters of the scene, and you guys will pick one you liked or didn't like and try to analyze it a bit for some foreshadowing or symbolism. Sound fun? * Bonus: What was the overall theme of this episode in your opinion? 1. Tywin / JaimeOk this one's easy. Tywin gutting and skinning a stag. How much more symbolic can you get?! But what about the things Tywin says to Jaime? Especially this: "The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep."
Or this? "Your mother's dead. Before long I'll be dead.
And you and your brother and your sister and all of her children.
All of us dead, all of us rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on.
Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family.
Do you understand?"Ok so that one was a gimme. Now I'm going to just list them out and you take it from here ... what did you notice? (Just copy/paste the section you want to tackle in a reply!) 2 Cersei/Ned"Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me. "and this ... 3. Theon / Osha / Maester Luwin"If your father's lord, how can you be lord too?" - Osha
and... Maester Luwin: Theon Greyjoy! The lady is our guest.
Theon Greyjoy: I thought she was our prisoner.
Maester Luwin: Are the two mutually exclusive in your experience?
And what about Osha's warning of "And they ain't sleeping no more?" (Luwin's denial of White Walkers) 4. Robert / NedRobert's death scene was so well done - great acting. I thought it curious how this is the one and only time we see Ned willing to be deceitful or dishonest... "the rightful heir..."Also some great imagery / symbolism with Robert's joke about the pig that killed him (what really killed him?)5. Jorah / Daenerys
The market scene had a lot of clues in it ... some subtle hints and not so subtle hints. Did Jorah's "pardon" from the spider come at exactly the moment it would turn him to Dany's side and prevent the wine seller's poisoning? Did Jorah know about this attempt before it happened? (Possible poisoning could have been mentioned) Best line from Jorah that is echoed later on by Renly: "Forgive me, Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right.
He had no right to them. He seized them because he could."
*compare that to Renly's words to Ned later, what did you notice? 6. Jon / SamSam is the voice of reason to knock sense into Jon who is pissed he's sent to the Stewards. The best moment was Maester Aemon's line: "We took you for a man of the Night's Watch. But perhaps we were wrong in that."
And another great moment: 7. Renly / NedThis is that conversation that parallels a lot of similarity to what Jorah told Daenerys about might and right being two different things: "Yes, he's a good soldier. Everyone knows that. So was Robert.
Tell me something: Do you still believe good soldiers make good kings? " - Renly8. Littlefinger / NedAnother warning, a different sort of player. What's different about how Littlefinger wants Ned to handle things over how Renly did? I think the only reason the stupid brothel scene existed in this episode was because they wanted to show how jealous Littlefinger was of Ned, to make impact for this scene and the ending betrayal scene ... 9. Dany / Drogo
The great war speech and promise Drogo gives Daenerys and their unborn son ... "The iron chair that his Mother's Father sat upon. I will give him the seven kingdoms ..."
Did you notice anything about this speech after watching season 6? 10. Ned / Cersei / Littlfinger
The episode ending scene ... tell me really what you thought of it? What symbolism was here? The foreshadowing of Ned's mistake and ending is obvious, but what about Littlefinger and his betrayal? What of Cersei's attitude and Joffrey already on the throne?
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 10, 2016 10:44:52 GMT -5
Question: I have often wondered, after Benjen refused to take Jon North of the Wall, and he was taking on as Commander Mormont's apprentice if perhaps more people guessed about Jon's parentage, or if they were simply trying to protect Ned Stark's 'bastard'. He can obviously fight, lead men, and inspire others. Why else keep him hidden behind the walls of Castle Black if not to protect the last 'Targaryen' male.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 10, 2016 12:17:52 GMT -5
Question: I have often wondered, after Benjen refused to take Jon North of the Wall, and he was taking on as Commander Mormont's apprentice if perhaps more people guessed about Jon's parentage, or if they were simply trying to protect Ned Stark's 'bastard'. He can obviously fight, lead men, and inspire others. Why else keep him hidden behind the walls of Castle Black if not to protect the last 'Targaryen' male. I think it's more that Jon was one of the only recruits with the education and training to become Lord Commander. We hear it very clearly that there are very few recruits that are really capable. Additionally, I'm sure Lord Mormont was looking to gain favor with the Warden of the North. I don't have a lot of notes for this episodes but here it goes... - The title of the episode pretty much describes the theme. We see Ned and the Wine-seller gamble on something and both loosing at it. - Tywan calling out Jaime and telling him that he cares too much about what other people think. We know now how true this is but when we are first introduced to Jaime he acts like he is above it all and nothing of what they say bothers him. Tywin was a horrible human being but he understood people well. - We hear mentioned that the Long Night came about because the Others awoke from their sleep. - Dany mentioning to Drogo that a throne can be for a King or a Queen. - Love the "Same the Wizard" comment Dany and Jon - The first transition goes from the assassination attempt against Dany to Jon being selected as Stewart to the Lord Commander. - Second transition from Jon to Dany. Jon takes his oath in front of the Heart-tree this transitions to Dany talking to Jorah about punishing the wine seller and Drogo makes his speech.
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 10, 2016 12:34:10 GMT -5
Question: I have often wondered, after Benjen refused to take Jon North of the Wall, and he was taking on as Commander Mormont's apprentice if perhaps more people guessed about Jon's parentage, or if they were simply trying to protect Ned Stark's 'bastard'. He can obviously fight, lead men, and inspire others. Why else keep him hidden behind the walls of Castle Black if not to protect the last 'Targaryen' male. For the books I think it's a tough call for the show, I guess you could speculate but I don't think we get that answer or that it matters much at this point. Mormont had multiple good reasons to do what he did and so did Benjen. Jon is just a kid when he arrives at the Wall and Benjen leaves early on and tells Jon you have to earn it here. Jon has zero experience at the Wall, the Watch and with ranging. As first Ranger Benjen had just lost a young noble Ranger in Royce the opening scene of the books and show. Same for Mormont who basically had his arm twisted into letting Royce have an adventure as a ranger and that did not work out well for him. With Jon you have a young promising recruit and he wants to keep it that way. He can read and write, he is trained in arms, and he is young and green. Mormont gave him a great Job. Jon hated it but most were probably envious of the position. Sam is right Mormont wants to groom him for command. Ned was not big on letting his secret out of the bag even with Cat after over a decade, so Benjen may have suspected something and probably did, and Mormont was probably clueless and I doubt Benjen would let any suspicions he had slip out. Martin has plenty of ways to relay information on Jon to the reader still in the books, it's not like he would really need Mormont or even Benjen to know for something he clearly sees as end game. He has Bran, Bloodraven, Howland, Wylla, perhaps even Ashra, and can always add some random character. He also has just dropped a ton of clues over the years and there are literally hundreds of thousands of pages out their discussing it. Speculation is always fun but at this point Jon is basically the only one on the planet who does not know and the show has given you a device in Bran to relay information. Though I do think there could be a strange possibility something goes wrong. Think about this Jon seems to set to have some sort of conflict with Sansa being built up over his Kingship. Now Bran just by his presence can do one of two things. He can settle the problem just by being alive. High, I am actually the rightful heir so you two make nice. Or Jon sees it as Bran lying to take away his crown. Jon and Bran were suppose to have a conflict in the treatment, it could still manifest in the story. Jon could also go into denial. Bit of a shock after all. It's not as easy a sell for Bran as some think, high I am a magical tree wizard I saw your real parents in a vision, I can't show you this, but take my word for it. His whole life Jon has wanted to be a real Stark now Bran comes along and says nope. Lot of directions the show could take this, books as well. Bran is so close too right by the entrance to the Castle Black gate. From there it's an easy cart ride to Winterfell. And the Wall knows about his crippled little Brother and Bran knows everything about Jon so it's an easy sell. Like that part is really close, however if they play to slow reunion I am going to be so pissed. Varys and Littlefinger are teleporting all over the place. No way it should be hard for Bran and Jon to reunite. Unless Littlefinger does something, which he will. Maybe Jon gets a letter from Bran.
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 10, 2016 12:39:25 GMT -5
Question: I have often wondered, after Benjen refused to take Jon North of the Wall, and he was taking on as Commander Mormont's apprentice if perhaps more people guessed about Jon's parentage, or if they were simply trying to protect Ned Stark's 'bastard'. He can obviously fight, lead men, and inspire others. Why else keep him hidden behind the walls of Castle Black if not to protect the last 'Targaryen' male. I think it's more that Jon was one of the only recruits with the education and training to become Lord Commander. We hear it very clearly that there are very few recruits that are really capable. Additionally, I'm sure Lord Mormont was looking to gain favor with the Warden of the North. I don't have a lot of notes for this episodes but here it goes... - The title of the episode pretty much describes the theme. We see Ned and the Wine-seller gamble on something and both loosing at it. - Tywan calling out Jaime and telling him that he cares too much about what other people think. We know now how true this is but when we are first introduced to Jaime he acts like he is above it all and nothing of what they say bothers him. Tywin was a horrible human being but he understood people well. - We hear mentioned that the Long Night came about because the Others awoke from their sleep. - Dany mentioning to Drogo that a throne can be for a King or a Queen. - Love the "Same the Wizard" comment Dany and Jon - The first transition goes from the assassination attempt against Dany to Jon being selected as Stewart to the Lord Commander. - Second transition from Jon to Dany. Jon takes his oath in front of the Heart-tree this transitions to Dany talking to Jorah about punishing the wine seller and Drogo makes his speech. Ninja'd, by you... again... You know you used to make a habit of this back in the day.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 10, 2016 12:45:06 GMT -5
I think it's more that Jon was one of the only recruits with the education and training to become Lord Commander. We hear it very clearly that there are very few recruits that are really capable. Additionally, I'm sure Lord Mormont was looking to gain favor with the Warden of the North. I don't have a lot of notes for this episodes but here it goes... - The title of the episode pretty much describes the theme. We see Ned and the Wine-seller gamble on something and both loosing at it. - Tywan calling out Jaime and telling him that he cares too much about what other people think. We know now how true this is but when we are first introduced to Jaime he acts like he is above it all and nothing of what they say bothers him. Tywin was a horrible human being but he understood people well. - We hear mentioned that the Long Night came about because the Others awoke from their sleep. - Dany mentioning to Drogo that a throne can be for a King or a Queen. - Love the "Same the Wizard" comment Dany and Jon - The first transition goes from the assassination attempt against Dany to Jon being selected as Stewart to the Lord Commander. - Second transition from Jon to Dany. Jon takes his oath in front of the Heart-tree this transitions to Dany talking to Jorah about punishing the wine seller and Drogo makes his speech. Ninja'd, by you... again... You know you used to make a habit of this back in the day. What can I say, I'm just that good.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 10, 2016 12:46:32 GMT -5
I can't figure out if there is a theme in between Dany and Jon's scenes, my brain has been kind of mushi lately.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 10, 2016 12:57:06 GMT -5
I can't figure out if there is a theme in between Dany and Jon's scenes, my brain has been kind of mushi lately. I kind of felt the symbolism going on in their scenes this episode was about being given a 'gift' that they don't really understand the magnitude of yet. In both cases they are coming close to their future leadership roles but not in the way they expect. Jon is put out and sulky to be assigned a steward without realizing the leadership potential of being LC Mormont's direct assistant. Daenerys on the other hand is given the gift of what she wants most from Drogo, but only in word. She expects it to happen and has no idea it will in fact be herself that follows through with Drogo's promise much later.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 10, 2016 13:04:10 GMT -5
I can't figure out if there is a theme in between Dany and Jon's scenes, my brain has been kind of mushi lately. I kind of felt the symbolism going on in their scenes this episode was about being given a 'gift' that they don't really understand the magnitude of yet. In both cases they are coming close to their future leadership roles but not in the way they expect. Jon is put out and sulky to be assigned a steward without realizing the leadership potential of being LC Mormont's direct assistant. Daenerys on the other hand is given the gift of what she wants most from Drogo, but only in word. She expects it to happen and has no idea it will in fact be herself that follows through with Drogo's promise much later. Oh, that's really good. Thanks!
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 10, 2016 17:54:35 GMT -5
I still have to watch, which one is Jon again?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 19:01:24 GMT -5
I still have to watch, which one is Jon again? The one with the great hair.
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 10, 2016 23:11:11 GMT -5
I still have to watch, which one is Jon again? The one with the great hair. Oh yeah he's about 6'2 Blonde, goes by Kingslayer. He does have great hair, looks just like a Disney Prince.
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Post by Envie on Aug 11, 2016 7:59:29 GMT -5
The one with the great hair. Oh yeah he's about 6'2 Blonde, goes by Kingslayer. He does have great hair, looks just like a Disney Prince. De-railing the symbolism topic a bit here (or maybe this is great symbolism) ... but I always laughed at this comparison more than Disney:
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 12, 2016 8:47:18 GMT -5
Oh yeah he's about 6'2 Blonde, goes by Kingslayer. He does have great hair, looks just like a Disney Prince. De-railing the symbolism topic a bit here (or maybe this is great symbolism) ... but I always laughed at this comparison more than Disney: What? It's a parallel, oh sure it's not an in world parallel but it's still a parallel. Or is it the same person? The world may never know.
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Post by khaella on Aug 12, 2016 14:58:16 GMT -5
The one scene that REALLY stands out to me is the one in Littlefinger's brothel. It has to be one of the most gratuitous sex scenes, but also a very important scene. Littlefinger lays everything out there for us, but not many people are REALLY listening to what he is saying since they are distracted by the girls. I remember seeing people ask what Littlefinger wanted all of the time, and he tells us here. When he tells Roz that he wants everything, he means it. The only way someone can own everything is to become king. Littlefinger is also letting us know how much he despises Ned and how well he can manipulate people. Him coaching the girls on how to win over a man shows us that he knows how to motivate people into playing his games. His manipulation of Sansa has already started and we know he needs Ned out of the way, but he confuses the watcher.
The other scene I enjoyed was Robert talking on his death bed (Not his dying). He says: "King Robert Baratheon, murdered by a pig". He doesn't use the word boar, he uses 'pig'. In most cultures, the pig is associated with women (mothers and wives), fertility, and harvest. In Hindu, the pig is linked to Vajravarahi, the female consort of Vishnu. Seems like a connection to Cersei. In Buddhism, it symbolizes ignorance, especially black pigs. Robert and Ned’s ignorance on how he died. Robert’s ignorance to Cersei and his children (mother, wife, and fertility). He also says 'murdered', telling us that this was no accident. I also enjoy watching Varys put ideas into people's heads without really saying it.
While I was watching, I noticed something that I haven't ever noticed before. When Lord Commander Mormont is asking if anyone worships the old gods and Jon says 'yes', he tells Jon that he will find a weirwood a mile north of the Wall, and "maybe your old gods too". It also seems like the weirwood looks like LC Mormont. I could just be seeing things, but the weirwood has a smile on it's face when most of them are grim. Mormont is a man that knows how to laugh. This could just be me, but it seems like something more is going on here. I know I have seen people writing about how they think that the Mormonts may be wargs as well, and this makes me wonder. If the tree does look like Mormont, and combining that to what he tells Jon, it seems interesting. I need to re-watch this one again!
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