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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2016 9:14:49 GMT -5
Episode 9 - Baelor
Symbolism / Parallels / Foreshadowing DiscussionThemes to Explore: Sacrifice, Honor, Duty, FamilyTo say this episode was epic emotional is an understatement. As konradsmith pointed out in his really well written review: They really pulled out all the stops for this one and it was massive in terms of thematic symbolism and parallels for later seasons. Again, I'm going to ask for re-watch participation here! I would like more of you to get involved in giving a short write-up, even if just one scene or moment where you really felt the impact of some sort of parallel to later on in the story or a bit of symbolism you loved. I'll start with something I noticed and also mentioned by Konrad about the opening/closing of the episode and the director's choice of how the scenes opened and closed: Ned Stark - Silence/DeathIt wasn't until I re-watched this again with fresh perspective after many years of paying better attention to the artistic choices of the filming that I noticed something really cool about the opening scene with Ned and Varys in the dungeon.
The scene opens black, and silent other than Ned's heavy breathing. It lingers just a bit long on that for impact ... and this lends a lot of weight to the significance of the conversation between Varys and Ned. Varys wants Ned to "confess" to keep the peace and to save Sansa even though it's a lie. Here we have Family vs. Honor (something that is again repeated later in the episode many times) and Ned's mistakes coming full circle on him. He does choose to take the advice Varys gives him though it will do him no good, and at the end of the episode, we witness his death by Joffrey's command anyways. The episode then ends with the same silence as the crowd's jeering is blotted out and for that moment we're with Ned fully at the moment he realizes he's going to die just as we were with him fully at the start of the episode in the silent darkness of the dungeon. This was really powerfully done choices by the show creators and the impact of Ned's death is subtle but gut-wrenching. Bonus Theory: www.buzzfeed.com/andyneuenschwander/ned-starks-last-words-might-confirm-a-game-of-thrones-theory?utm_term=.thzVymDBV#.wglaJ2qraI've seen that one floating around on the internet and as someone with a hearing disability (mostly deaf in one ear) I do read lips but honestly can't say I really can tell what it was Ned was saying the moment he was be-headed. Did he really say "I kept my promise" as his last words? If so, It's another powerful parallel that will surface in Season 6 when his sister Lyanna will whisper "Promise me Ned" to him as well as what we think was the name she wanted to give Jon Snow ..."His name is ..."~~~~~So here we go! Pick a moment in Episode 9, Baelor that you felt was thematically powerful, symbolic or a parallel and help me complete this massive episode write-up!
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moiaf
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Post by moiaf on Aug 15, 2016 9:58:14 GMT -5
Here are a few notes I jotted down while watching the episode.
- I felt that another of the themes the episode dealt with was choice and how we live with those choices. Choices between love and honor, love and duty, duty and honor. Whatever choice these characters make they must learn to live with them and the consequences that they bring.
- Walden Frey calling Robb's army, 20,000 corpses, or any army of corpses. Definitely a hint of what will happen in Season 3 with the Red Wedding.
Dany and Jon
- We only have one transition between the two this episode. We go from Jon and Aemon discussing choice to Dany in the Dothraki sea choosing to fight for her husband even though it's clear he is dying. While Jon is being given the philosophical view of what it is to choose between love and duty, Dany is force to make that decision at that very moment.
- We also see in Dany's scene the beginnings of the iron will of hers that is so predominant to her character now. She demands that they set camp even though the Blood Rider doesn't want to obey her because she is a woman her forcefulness makes the Blood Rider relent and do as she says.
- I really live it when Dany responds to the Blood Rider who says she is nothing by saying "I have never been nothing, I am the blood of the dragon." Six seasons later another man will say she is the Queen of Nothing and she will show him how wrong he is.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2016 10:08:57 GMT -5
Daenerys and her iron will is a great topic moiaf and though Emilia's acting (when she's being commanding) has often been criticized as overly dramatic or stilted, I still think she grew into the role rather well and being so young and naive had a lot to do with that ' will' coming across as too much perhaps. I also loved the Bloodrider's response that "The Dragons are all dead Khaleesi" after she said that. "Not all of them" (in Robert's voice) came to mind!
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 15, 2016 20:31:50 GMT -5
Something I just remembered, which I will be keeping a close eye on Wednesday night during 1x10: three deaths to pay for three dragons.
Death must pay for life MMD tells Dany, and I'd never thought about there being 3 deaths until this moment.
Rhaego dies first, then Drogo, then MMD. One death for each dragon.
Sorry if this doesn't fit, but it was the reminder about "The dragons are all dead, Khaleesi" that jumped that to the front of my mind.
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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2016 20:50:56 GMT -5
Something I just remembered, which I will be keeping a close eye on Wednesday night during 1x10: three deaths to pay for three dragons. Death must pay for life MMD tells Dany, and I'd never thought about there being 3 deaths until this moment. Rhaego dies first, then Drogo, then MMD. One death for each dragon. Sorry if this doesn't fit, but it was the reminder about "The dragons are all dead, Khaleesi" that jumped that to the front of my mind. I think it fits great and you're right, three deaths for three dragons! The whole "Only death can pay for life" is a tricky one because it seems like it's reserved only for specific types of blood-magic. A lot of people thought someone would have to be sacrificed for Melisandre to bring back Jon Snow but like Thoros/Berric it wasn't necessary so it's not the same sort of magic. *ETA: Another parallel that deserves some thought and discussion from this episode and future ones ... Mirri Maz Duur said she had been trained in Asshai by the same sorts of magic (shadowbinding) as Melisandre. But curiously, it's Jaqen who says the same line "Only Death Can Pay for Life" line much later. I've often wondered how the Faceless Man magic is connected to that of Shadowbinders and why is Melisandre one when she worships the God of Life, not the God of Death?
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 15, 2016 22:50:45 GMT -5
Well I finally caught up, I said I would and I did. Do you know how? I skipped 5 episodes. One reason I wanted to get on 9 is that it is one of my favorite episodes.
Love and family is being discussed as well as love and duty, and honor, family and honor. House Tully words. When you look at it everyone has choices to make and they are made black and white. You can have love or you can have duty. Aemon gives his tragically beautiful speech to Jon. This episode will often get mirrored in the series.
In the opening Varys comes to Ned with a skin of Wine, and wishes to speak with him. A choice he is offering. So here you have Ned a Hand of the king, who's father figure was a hand of the king who was murdered. He tells the mummers story "Each man has a role to play." He will not free him, he could but he will not. Varys wants peace.
Later Varys will rescue a hand of the king from the black cells, this hands father is a hand and he will murder his father or father figure. Later in Pentos they will talk about men. "I believe men of talent have a part to play in the war to come."
Now there is a lot in this episode, but I can't really address all of it. It's a time thing. There is this sort of juxtaposed question being asked of most of the characters. Now when we first see Jon, he is being given long claw and asked about his burnt hand. He burnt it in the fire. Something interesting happens much later, with Tyrion, he is playing a game. Do you remember what it is? It's a game with fire, they are seeing who can handle the heat. Tyrion gets burnt while the women does not. So in episode 8 Jon is burnt, in episode 9 Tyrion is burnt and we all know what happens in episode 10. Funny how the show, used these 3 characters to relate fire and burning to the viewers in sequential episodes. Now in Jon and Aemons scene what does Aemon transition into. Love and Duty, becomes about a woman and child. Funny thin here, it's all about Duty, and many people have failed to realize this, Aemon essentially tells Jon that Duty is nothing compared to love. Of course you know stay your watch. Which will very much foreshadow Jon actually leaving.
On to Robb. Marriage is brought up to Robb, and Penis Theon is being a sniggering dick, don't worry that problem will be solved. Later we come back to Robb after the battle and he has captured Jaime. And what does Jaime say to him? Essentially the same thing Jon says to Ramsey. We can spare a lot of lives lets you and me decide this between ourselves. And like Ramsey the lord of Winterfell, Robb declines.
On to Ned. Ned telling the Brother of the Watch Balor was a nice touch, but listen to Pycelle his speech sounds an awful lot like the High Sparrow, and Ned sounds a lot like Loras. One scene takes place outside the sept and one inside. There to confess their sins.And Pycelle like the High Sparrow tells the crowd "the Gods are just, but Balor taught us they could also be merciful." Sansa like Marg has also tried to arrange for mercy. And once again a Lannister screws things up.
Family vs Honor, Love vs Duty, Justice vs. Mercy. Similar but different, naturally contrasting ideas or themes like ice and fire. Jon in the will choose Duty over family and much later family over duty. Sam interestingly enough will choose both much later down the road. Jon ended up with Conflict with his brothers at the wall, and we see later it appears some conflict may be simmering with his family.
Well that's all I got, well not really but I wanted to get some stuff in before the next episode.
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Post by Envie on Aug 16, 2016 8:49:23 GMT -5
Thank you sercreighton I really appreciate all those insightful observations you found in this episode and am happy you've joined the symbolism talks for our re-watch! I'm especially intrigued by this part you noticed: What sort of connection do you think they were implying or symbolizing with Jon and Tyrion being burnt to Daenerys? I am fully open to the possibility of Tyrion also being a Targaryen via the mentioned obsession Aerys had with Tyrion's Mother. I never remembered the part how she was once the Queen's hand-maiden and sent away because of Aerys interest in her and then of course the 'King's Right' thing late on. But still, that's a theory I reserve for the "maybe" box. I've never been quite as certain about that one the way I was about Jon's identity. Of course the books are chock full of even more clues than the show on that one. But back to the Jon Snow part of the Targaryen legacy ... The Aemon symbolism - it's big. Really big. In fact I think a lot of us entirely missed just how big that conversation to Jon Snow really was. Even beyond the fact he was referring directly to Jon leaving the watch to defend his brother, there's a peculiar twist to what he says that implies something even more. When Aemon says this particular line, I always assumed it was just an ironic parallel to the fact that at that moment Ned was in the dungeons being forced to choose between his honor (the truth about Joffrey) and his family (saving Sansa). But in re-watching the scene, I had a little moment of goose-bumps like I was missing something more. I did some digging around on the internet and it seems some people have also made a connection and a possible theory. I found it on reddit, but here's an article that examines it in more detail: www.wetpaint.com/game-of-thrones-maester-aemon-jon-snow-parentage-1506234/It is suggested, through a series of words from Aemon, that he knew Jon's true heritage. Was it possible? Here's the Imgur gallery that the reddit user submitted that makes a compelling argument for that speech to Jon: imgur.com/gallery/jzIKJ#Y2eLWfHWas Aemon actually talking about the Tower of Joy and Ned choosing love over honor? Ned loved his sister so much he took the lie to his grave rather than be 'honorable' and reveal Jon's true birth. He would then die much later despite once again choosing love over honor to try and save his own daughter. If you think about it, that's pretty profound and heartbreaking. Ned saved his sister's son with lies about Jon's true identity but could not save himself or his own daughter with the same lies about Joffrey's true identity. What would Lord Stark do, Aemon asks ... (and Jon answers)
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Post by Envie on Aug 17, 2016 11:31:17 GMT -5
Here's another great parallel from this episode: Jaime Lannister challenges Robb Stark to a 1 on 1 duel to stop the war ahead: And six seasons later, Jon Snow will in turn challenge Ramsay Bolton to the same:
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 17, 2016 14:10:54 GMT -5
Thank you sercreighton I really appreciate all those insightful observations you found in this episode and am happy you've joined the symbolism talks for our re-watch! I'm especially intrigued by this part you noticed: What sort of connection do you think they were implying or symbolizing with Jon and Tyrion being burnt to Daenerys? I am fully open to the possibility of Tyrion also being a Targaryen via the mentioned obsession Aerys had with Tyrion's Mother. I never remembered the part how she was once the Queen's hand-maiden and sent away because of Aerys interest in her and then of course the 'King's Right' thing late on. But still, that's a theory I reserve for the "maybe" box. I've never been quite as certain about that one the way I was about Jon's identity. Of course the books are chock full of even more clues than the show on that one. But back to the Jon Snow part of the Targaryen legacy ... The Aemon symbolism - it's big. Really big. In fact I think a lot of us entirely missed just how big that conversation to Jon Snow really was. Even beyond the fact he was referring directly to Jon leaving the watch to defend his brother, there's a peculiar twist to what he says that implies something even more. When Aemon says this particular line, I always assumed it was just an ironic parallel to the fact that at that moment Ned was in the dungeons being forced to choose between his honor (the truth about Joffrey) and his family (saving Sansa). But in re-watching the scene, I had a little moment of goose-bumps like I was missing something more. I did some digging around on the internet and it seems some people have also made a connection and a possible theory. I found it on reddit, but here's an article that examines it in more detail: www.wetpaint.com/game-of-thrones-maester-aemon-jon-snow-parentage-1506234/It is suggested, through a series of words from Aemon, that he knew Jon's true heritage. Was it possible? Here's the Imgur gallery that the reddit user submitted that makes a compelling argument for that speech to Jon: imgur.com/gallery/jzIKJ#Y2eLWfHWas Aemon actually talking about the Tower of Joy and Ned choosing love over honor? Ned loved his sister so much he took the lie to his grave rather than be 'honorable' and reveal Jon's true birth. He would then die much later despite once again choosing love over honor to try and save his own daughter. If you think about it, that's pretty profound and heartbreaking. Ned saved his sister's son with lies about Jon's true identity but could not save himself or his own daughter with the same lies about Joffrey's true identity. What would Lord Stark do, Aemon asks ... (and Jon answers) Yeah I think the idea is there to mirror Ned's moment with Lyanna. And that Love and Duty is called into question with Rhaegar between the Crown and the future, and Lyanna and Elia. Rhaegars motivations are still a huge question, there exists another parallel with the history of Aemon Dragonknight, which also features a Deanerys and of course and a very Robert like king. And you can get into how Dany was asked to marry a Martell and how Deanerys did marry a Martell and all sorts of stuff. With Tyrion, I like some very much suspect Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. That's really more of a book discussion, and I pretty sure the show is well aware of it. I just find it interesting that they mix in Tyrion being burned in the build up to the pyre including the burning of Jon's hand and the transition from the burning of his hand to Tyrion burning his arm, to the Unburnt. That's generally not an accident. The actual order of events off the top of my head goes like this, Dany places the black and red egg in the fire in episode 6, her hands are unharmed while her handmaid is burnt. Later in episode 6 Viserys (I miss Viserys) makes mistake while taking the molding for his own Golden Dragon coin. Suppose to use plaster buddy. Also the whole Targaryen Promise and Broken promise thing. Viserys "you promised." It becomes a more emphasized parallel when he is executed and Mormont tells Dany to look away and she doesn't calling back an inverse to Jon and Bran on the show. Fire Cannot kill a Dragon. This will foreshadow of course Ned's own execution and his statement to Robert, as Roberts own death is a parallel to Lyanna, "Promise me Ned" both times about a son or prince. When episode 6 closes on broken promises, Episode 7 opens with Ned perhaps the series most famous "Promise" and Cersei, and we are give another absolute, "you win or you die, there is no middle ground." Well Cersei has issues, lots and lots of issues. As Jon takes his vows later, a dead hand is brought to the weirwood, pretty heavy foreshadowing. And in turn in episode 8 Jon burns his hand as the dead return to this world both in West and the East, just in naturally opposing symbolism. And of course the arm burning of Tyrion. Lots of heavy hand imagery, Jon Arryn the Hand dies, Roberts display of five armies or one, Handmaid burns her hands, Flowers frozen hand at the weirwood, Jon Burns his hand, Umber loses half a Hand, and later we meet a half hand, Ned the hand is killed, Thorne is sent south with a hand, Tyrion is named hand by his father the hand, Jaime loses a hand. Some comments on Mercy as well, what killed the Blue eyed Horn lord King? Mercy.
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Post by izzue on Jul 3, 2017 11:33:44 GMT -5
So much here. I'm well aware I'm doing these rewatches nearly a year after everybody else has watched and posted on it, but it's so good to be able to go back and see what people discussed then and also to have a place to write down my thoughts after watching, even at this late date.
So much symbolism here. Maester Aemon sets the stage with "Love is the death of Duty", asking Jon what his father would do if the day ever came when he had to choose between his honor and those he loves. In the book, Martin writes that Jon hesitates, thinking of his father's infidelity in creating him as a bastard and also that he has never once 'honored' Jon's mother by naming her or being willing to talk about her. He replies that Ned would do what's right, Martin writes, in order to hide, cover up this hesitation from himself. But actually, as much as Ned is defined by honor, he chooses love for family when he promises Lyanna to keep Jon's identity secret. He chooses honor when asked to bow the knee to Joffrey and proclaim him as Robert's rightful heir, yet that's overridden by love for family when he confesses to treason in order to save Sansa.
We also get the another reference to Tywin's ordering the murder of Elia and her children that Catelyn referred to in the previous episode when counseling Robb to go to war, that the Lannisters would never leave them free or let them live.
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