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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 7:25:14 GMT -5
What do you rate episode 2x09?
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Post by Envie on Sept 17, 2016 23:09:38 GMT -5
10/10
Game of Thrones really shines when HBO pours all the big bucks into it's great action sequence productions and Blackwater was one of the first and most memorable we had of this effort.
In going backwards, it's interesting to see how spoiled we viewers have gotten over the years because honestly the special effects and large-scale production in this episode wasn't that spectacular. The wildfire on the ships in the water was well done of course though I'd say they definitely upped the ante by Season 6 with Cersei's version of that green fire of doom.
The battles in this episode were compact in small spaces (beach, gate, walls) and it shows where they tried to make it look larger. By Season 6 we'll be treated to massive wide open battles in broad daylight rather than the darker torchlight of Blackwater that helped hide the budget constraints at the time. Still, this isn't a complaint at all because Blackwater still impresses me and gets my heart pumping with the tension and uncertainty of the outcome of the battle.
It's interesting to me on this re-watch to see how invested we were in the Lannisters despite their status as the "bad guys" of the story. We *should* have been rooting for Stannis, but we weren't (unless you're a diehard Mannis fan) because they've made us love the Lannisters ... especially Tyrion ... so having him lead the battle was such a cheer inducing moment you forget you're supposed to want to see them destroyed. Shit-head Joffrey leaving the scene just confirmed it all the more really ... we don't want him there anyways, he doesn't deserve any glory.
All dialogue in this episode was perfect. Short, sweet and to the point. Even Cersei's drunken drawn out scenes with Sansa in Maegor's Holdfast were good and didn't take away from the fast pace at all because in there we saw a different battle being waged - between Sansa's will and Cersei's. Despite being a naive girl, Sansa showed a lot of bravery and when Cersei took off without a single word, it was Sansa who led the women in a hymn. This was a glimmer of her future strength to come as she grows and matures. She IS a Stark at heart!
Special kudos to Rory in his perfect Sandor portrayal. "Fuck the Kingsguard, Fuck the City, Fuck the King." ... and then of course his perfect scene with Sansa where she says "You won't hurt me." and he says "No little bird, I won't hurt you" and then leaves. The focus on Sansa's doll (given to her by Ned) at the end of that scene was so perfect. Sansa's innocence is gone even if she hasn't been raped. She just learned everything she needs to know about men (killers) and war.
Overall this remains one of the best episodes of the series. It had a really neat flow back and forth between both sides of the battle and the various characters. Each character's experience led one into the other like pieces of a puzzle fitting together into the big picture.
Though production value will go up and up with every battle after this one, I think Blackwater will always be one of the fan favorites and brings back such amazing moments/memories.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 23:51:16 GMT -5
10. It's a masterpiece. I actually think the SFX hold up pretty well, tbh. Some truly gruesome moments, the Hound cutting a guy in half, heads being crushed by rocks, Stannis taking the top of guy's head clean off, etc. Until Battle of Bastards this was still the best battle episode, imo. Just pure, terrifying, chaos.
Other than the battle itself, the highlights for me are drunk Cersei, Cersei's scene with Tommen in the throne room (that scene was Emmy worthy imo), Tyrion's speech, and Sandor/Sansa. It's so infuriating watching her make the decision not to go with him.
I would have loved to have seen Tyrion's chain, but it worked fine without it. I don't think I have a single complaint with this episode.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 18, 2016 6:38:06 GMT -5
10 obviously. At the time it was the best episode yet. And it held that title until 309 aired about a year later. Just like 109 established the show and what it's stakes were, 209 established the level of spectacle the show could deliver. While it's been dwarfed since, I still remember being blown away by how much Blackwater brought to to the table in terms of scale. While in most shows an episode focusing on one location or storyline, a bottle episode, is written and produced because of a lack of budget and to pass time by cheaply-producing something on just one set (think Breaking Bad's the Fly), GoT's first one-location episode was its most expensive yet. Not only that it was probably the most epic battle ever televised, with the exception of those in Band of Brothers and the Pacific. Again, while it's been surpassed since and by quite a lot, making it look both tame and small in comparison, I won't forget watching it back in 2012 and wondering to myself if I'd ever seen a better episode of TV. The focus of the episode allowed for the characters to breathe. s2's greatest weakness, its pacing and need to cut to storyline after storyline in every episode and not develop enough interest in each one...was no longer a problem here. We could spend time with Bronn and with the Hound and with Pod and Lancel. Making each of them much more than the minor characters they'd been until then. Particularly the Hound was made from a background character given a moment here or there into the fan-favourite he is today. Here's where D and D figured out how to make him work in the show (they wrote the scene with him and Bronn, not Grrm who did most of the script) and he's continued in that vein ever since. It's where he becomes a breakout character. The episode also had great moments from Tyrion, rising to the occasion, Cersei, sinking to her at-that-time lowest and wallowing in it and preparing to do the worst and Stannis, who for the first time makes us understand why his reputation is as impressive as it is. Tywin as well though he only gets one line in the episode is at his most impressive here. "The battle is over, we have won" in non-CD hands could've been a bland expository proclamation. But he makes it into something beyond epic. And then after we see Cersei's desperation, get a fake-out "Is Tyrion dead?" moment, see Stannis fighting his men who are rushing him away and see Tywin victorious...we hear the Lannister song for the first time in its full glory. It'd already figured its way into the show's score from 201 when Tyrion first whistled it and it began playing in Tyrion and Cersei scenes. And then we heard Bronn singing it with his buddies. But here we heard it all, punctuating the episode perfectly. I remember at the time after the episode listening to the song on youtube again and again. Not just to remind me of how perfectly it finished the episode but also because I knew it prefigured the RW and that the episode had set up its importance for the next season when we'd get that next great GoT moment. So while the battle looks small now compared to 508 and 609. And while the Hound and Stannis cut through a few people rather cartoonishly like they were made of cheese which was clearly Neil Marshall being a little gleefully gorey as is his wont. And while they didn't really make it clear that Loras was wearing Renly's armour or that Stannis was taken away by his own men rather than captured (this really confused my mum back in the day). Those criticisms are puny quibbles. What we got was a perfect piece of television. The fact that the show has actually managed to surpass it and do so more than once is an immense compliment to its overall quality. This episode for me at least deserves special mention, although I now rank a few episodes above it. It restored my faith in the show after much of s2 underwhelmed and disappointed me. It became clear that the production for s2 had taken shortcuts in different aspects of its production in order to ensure 209 was as good as it could be. Which was a gamble. If they'd bungled Blackwater, that would've made for a completely failed season. But as it was, I forgave them for 201, 202 and 208. Because 209 was PERFECT television.
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Post by Envie on Sept 18, 2016 9:03:30 GMT -5
I actually think the SFX hold up pretty well, tbh. Oh they do, they really do! I hope no one took my remarks about the production effects in a negative light because I didn't intend it that way. As konradsmith pointed out better than I could, the episode was the best we'd ever seen for the time it was created. My own take on it was that in the 4 seasons since Blackwater, they've raised the bar higher and higher and we the spoiled fans now expect more and more amazing special effects that cost triple what they did back then. But even then, Blackwater was masterfully created and everything was very believable and tightly directed. The fact that they used smaller set space as I mentioned (the walls, gates etc) gave them a more confined area to focus the fighting and it worked really well on a smaller budget. I remember watching the making-of for Hardhome where Sapochnik mentioned deciding to bring the main battle into the walled enclosure of the wildlings fort to narrow the focus and help create better effects and how that worked so well. They could cut down on the number of extras running around and zero in on the action. This same technique was applied during Blackwater I think and it worked great for us to see the characters at close-up range. Sandor's fear of the fire, Tyrion's near death moment and Podrick saving him, Stannis climbing the ladder first and killing men at the top like a boss and then being dragged away by his own men at the end when it was lost. Those were great close-up moments that afforded good drama and lessened the need for special effects. I'm really enjoying watching these epic episodes in retrospect for that reason ... a more critical eye that can appreciate how much the show has evolved over the years but still had the strongest start in Season 1 to hook the audience in completely. Season 2 had a few missteps in a lot of it's episodes but by the end 9 and 10 pulled it back on the epic road!
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Post by dje on Sept 18, 2016 13:17:36 GMT -5
10/10, I agree with you all, one of the top 5 episodes of the series, still holds up.
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 20, 2016 6:09:03 GMT -5
It's interesting to me on this re-watch to see how invested we were in the Lannisters despite their status as the "bad guys" of the story. We *should* have been rooting for Stannis, but we weren't (unless you're a diehard Mannis fan) because they've made us love the Lannisters ... especially Tyrion ... so having him lead the battle was such a cheer inducing moment you forget you're supposed to want to see them destroyed. Shit-head Joffrey leaving the scene just confirmed it all the more really ... we don't want him there anyways, he doesn't deserve any glory. I liked Stannis back in ACoK and season 2, but it was still hard to fully root for him in this battle. Though the idea of Stannis executing Joffrey in 2x10 is mouthwatering. The episode itself was superb. 10/10 and it's definitely one of the best episodes GoT has ever produced. ++ The music was superb, from the drums to the Rains of Castamere in the end credits. + Peter Dinklage was great, yet again. His speech was top notch. + STANNIS. DOES. NOT. BEND. (Stephen Dillane was great in this) + the combat scenes and tactics were really really good. I loved the little details like the separate armor pieces, like we could see Florent soldiers and soldiers from Storm's End as well. We could also see how the normal soldiers felt. Great stuff. + Deus ex machina cavalry charges aren't cheesy yet. + One of Sansa's stronger episodes. She's still timid, but shows some flashes of bravery every now and then. Lovely to see the character developing. The dialogues between her and Cersei were great. I also liked her saying goodbye to the Hound, I don't mind that it's not as harsh as it is in the books. + Why is it that I accept Shae's and Tyrion's love story but not Robb's and Talisa's? There are so many positives that I couldn't fit them all in my quick review. Splendid episode.
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Post by Envie on Sept 20, 2016 12:40:47 GMT -5
+ Why is it that I accept Shae's and Tyrion's love story but not Robb's and Talisa's? This bit made me laugh, and it's so true! Even with the heavy criticism Sibel often received for her acting and portrayal of Shae, her relationship with Tyrion was solid and believable. I think because they spent a lot longer building up their story together and because Shae actually plays an instrumental part in Tyrion's evolution it seems like a much more solid love story even knowing Shae's a prostitute and will betray Tyrion later. With Talisa (and Jeyne in the books) we just didn't get enough character development to care much about her even though the show writers tried to make her stakes in the game higher by being pregnant and attending the Red Wedding to die horribly. That was done for shock effect and to make us care more and be heartbroken more (which it did do) but the actual love story between Robb and Talisa fell flat. I've just never cared for the way they portrayed her as this saucy/mouthy woman on the battlefield insulting Robb to turn him on ... not really believable. Also, she walks in his tent like three different times to interrupt valid war meetings with Roose Bolton and others which just seemed inappropriate. Didn't like her but still felt traumatized by her horrible death at the Red Wedding.
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Post by Basil on Sept 21, 2016 2:26:58 GMT -5
I never had any problems with Talisa. It makes sense to me that Robb would fall hard for the first pretty girl he had sex with, and being Ned Stark's son, he would want to marry her right off the bat. It doesn't have to be a super deep or compelling love story, I mean ... it's not, it's questionable if they were in love at all, or if it was just a crush paired with a lot of horniness. It's tragic nonetheless, Robb was super young and inexperienced, he made a stupid mistake and he paid for it with his life, and the fact that it wasn't the most compelling love story ever told only adds to the tragedy.
I never cared about the Shae/Tyrion thing myself. I absolutely love Sibel, but Shae was a deeply unlikeable character and most of her scenes with Tyrion were cringy as fuck. Shae's best scenes were all with Sansa, in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 3:01:33 GMT -5
The Tyrion/Shae dynamic worked for me because her eventual betrayal (especially being with Tywin) came as such a shock. It was honestly as much as of a gut punch as the RW, or Jon getting stabbed. At least for me.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 21, 2016 18:27:21 GMT -5
10 out of 10
Blackwater was the first episode I finished, sat for a moment going, "WTF?" Then turned around and started right again. First episode I realized there was more to the Hound than just his exterior, and he's now one of my favorite characters.
With each Ninth Episode, from season one to six, we've seen the game stepped up in huge leaps. 'Blackwater' gave us a naval battle that wasn't, and our first exposure to Aerys' wildfire.
And Pod - saving the day.
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