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Post by Envie on Sept 2, 2016 11:15:49 GMT -5
Season 2 Episode 5 - The Ghost of HarrenhalRe-Watch Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016. HBO Viewer's Guide Page: viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-2/episode-5/home/15Runtime: 55 minutes Release date: April 29th, 2012 The end of the Baratheon rivalry drives Catelyn to flee and Littlefinger to act. At King's Landing, Tyrion's source alerts him to Joffrey's flawed defense plan and a mysterious secret weapon. In Harrenhal, Arya receives a promise. The Night's Watch arrive at the Fist of the First Men, an ancient fortress where they hope to stem the advance of the wildling army.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 5:19:23 GMT -5
As I said earlier I feel s2 should've focused more on Renly and built him up more as a contender before pulling the rug out from under him. There are a number of reasons why I think his death doesn't really work on the show but the biggest is that I never felt the stakes were set up as well as they should be. If he'd lived for just another episode (after all we don't see Stannis at all between 205 and 208 so it's not because they wanted to build up Stannis more) or just another few scenes that really built up how strong his position was the moment would hit harder.
Also the suddenness of the shadow baby's swooping in and the low budget CGI of the show's early years didn't make for too good a moment. Though it was weak at the end of 204, it at least works as a good horror moment (which IMO is GrrM's strongest suit, horror writing) that is just viscerally creepy even if the effects are underwhelming. IMO the way to have done Renly's death better would be to do the same. Not have it as a sudden thing but set up a sense of suspense building up to his death so that despite their lower CGI budget back then, it would feel more natural within the scene. They kind of tried going in that direction by having the episode open with the wind rustling outside the tent and hinting at what the wind might then bring in...and it's not the like the previously-on would have allowed the viewer to forget the shadow baby. Still though. I really feel the suspense of the moment could've been done way better. Particularly if Renly had been made to seem more bulletproof leading up to it.
Also the shadow baby just disappearing instead of sweeping out of the tent or something seemed like to quick a fix effects-wise. Again, I understand what their production limitations were at the time. But the staging of the scene left a lot to be desired.
All of that said MF and Gwendoline's acting following it and the fight scene sold the importance of the moment after the fact. But the moment of Renly's death should've been a series-defining gut punch. It should've been a high point of the season instead of something in passing. Now I blame GrrM for that too since unless there's major followup with the shadowbinding angle with Mel's powers, I think he'd have been better to avoid such an overtly magical twist playing like that. If it's a one-off for Mel then it's a little too convenient writing. Which I really hope isn't the case. Mel ought to show some form of those powers again.
Generally in terms of how Renly was written in the show, I never had a problem with his characterization being softened and making him less of a warrior and less like young Robert. But the fact that his importance was only really ever emphasized after his death rather than before, is an overall weakness that the show hasn't really made up for since.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 5:31:18 GMT -5
Probably the best thing about s2, which I overall have a lower opinion of compared to the rest of the show, was Lena's performance as Cersei coming into its own. In s1 there was a sense of ambiguity about her overall and the chance that she might really be competent on some level and just a cruelly effective villain. The same is true of AGOT. But when you see her through Tyrion's eyes we get to see the Cersei we know and love who's drunk half the time and just plain amazing. Maybe that can be explained away as her drinking more after Robert died. But as good as Lena always is, I feel she didn't quite nail the character's casual cruelty and sharp turns from aloofness to intense anger until s2.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 5:33:20 GMT -5
Lancel talking about wildfire. You'll regret your taddling, son. You'll regret it big. More than you could ever know.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 5:44:22 GMT -5
"I've never known you to need to hear a thing twice."
Dillane delivers that so well. Later on you could tell D and D were writing specifically for the rhythms of his characteristic line delivery (as they also did for Charles Dance and Lena in particular). But back when they wrote s2, I don't imagine they knew who'd take the role. Which makes his getting the part and getting to read a line like that which suits his delivery so well all the better and shows how natural a fit he was for the part. His scene in 205 is really the quintessential Dillane scene. As Liam Cunningham's said when raving about him, Dillane doesn't take the easy, likable route through Stannis scenes, even when there's room to do so in the writing. He plays unsympathetic and then lets lighter moments shine through rather than play things more obviously. This is demonstrated so well in this scene by giving Stannis only one glimmer of remorse. On the page he could've showed it throughout and I think most actors would've done so and had Stannis saying his lines to Davos with an undercurrent of doubt throughout. Dillane doesn't do that though. He gives up Stannis full in his convictions until Davos leaves. Then he finally lets the weight of Renly's death show on his face. And still does so in a very understated way.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 6:34:14 GMT -5
"I've not conducted this experiment." And Ducksauce saying that duplication is a "parlour trick"? Come on, bub. Anyhow, I'll finish the episode later. Schlaft.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Sept 4, 2016 13:52:52 GMT -5
I'm behind on my watch schedule this week ... looks like I'm not the only one. Hoping to get this episode in tonight. Good on ya konradsmith leading the pack with the half-way mark in Season 2!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 14:30:03 GMT -5
Forgot about the awful dress Margaery wore in this episode. Looks like something that belongs in Dune, not GoT.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 4, 2016 14:32:57 GMT -5
Forgot about the awful dress Margaery wore in this episode. Looks like something that belongs in Dune, not GoT. It looks like she's wrapped in a tortilla.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Sept 4, 2016 21:34:18 GMT -5
Tortilla Marg was weird. Her personality was weird then too. I like the way they developed her more in King's Landing with Joffrey/Tommen marriages and definitely more with her conflict with Cersei. She was a brave character to face off with Cersei who went Mad Queen mode on her in the end. You know what scene I forgot about in this episode and really appreciated? How well Bran handled himself as a "Lord" dealing with troubles at Winterfell. Both Luwyn and Rodrick gave him very admiring looks when he gave orders to help the farmer with his sheep herding and also sending men to Torrhen's Square defense and his reasoning. This was proof Bran has good Stark blood leadership in him and if we consider this any sort of clue what the future one would be capable of ... I think Bran could make a fantastic Lord of Winterfell alongside Sansa. Let's face it, Jon's probably not going to stay there and be the Lord regardless as he's got bigger things on the way depending on his heritage reveal and the fight against the White Walkers. Bran is the perfect person to be there making decisions and doing what he can via his weirnet connections. Not that Sansa couldn't do it herself, but I get a strong feeling Bran's on his way home soon and will probably be making those decisions based on things he sees in his visions. Sansa is just such a wildcard this season coming up I'm trying to imagine what her end-game is going to be. I see Jon going off to gather the men of Westeros and fight the White Walkers while Bran runs things in Winterfell while spending most of his time out in the Godswood at the weirwood tree... sending messages perhaps. But I'm thinking ahead too far... here we are still in Season 2 and Bran's just a little boy left to be Lord of Winterfell and doing a good job of it. I had forgotten about his dream of the sea coming to Winterfell. I'm bracing myself for that sea... ugh I don't want to go through all this again!
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 5, 2016 1:31:34 GMT -5
Resuming the episode. We're at Ducksauce's garden party. The background music being played is the same as in the brothel in Volantis in ep. 503. Just like we have offscreen musicians playing the same few songs at the various weddings in Westeros throughout the show, this is seemingly a popular Essosi party piece.
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Post by konradsmith on Sept 5, 2016 1:39:56 GMT -5
You see, folks? Ramsay was in the right to kill Rickon. He was avenging those poor, innocent chestnuts that the boy was massacring indiscriminately. It's not every man understands the plight of the chestnut. Most callously dismiss the humble chestnut folk. But not Ramsay. Ramsay knew that chestnuts are good hard-working folk. When Rickon died the chestnuts rejoiced. They sang songs and huddled around their cookfires celebrating the martyr Ramsay. The only man to die for their noble cause.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 9:15:53 GMT -5
You see, folks? Ramsay was in the right to kill Rickon. He was avenging those poor, innocent chestnuts that the boy was massacring indiscriminately. It's not every man understands the plight of the chestnut. Most callously dismiss the humble chestnut folk. But not Ramsay. Ramsay knew that chestnuts are good hard-working folk. When Rickon died the chestnuts rejoiced. They sang songs and huddled around their cookfires celebrating the martyr Ramsay. The only man to die for their noble cause. I must confess the whole time he was smashing the chestnuts, all I could thing about was the poor Lannister cousin and his beetles. CUU, CUU, CUU (or something like that!)
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stannisforking299al
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Post by stannisforking299al on Sept 5, 2016 14:12:19 GMT -5
As I said earlier I feel s2 should've focused more on Renly and built him up more as a contender before pulling the rug out from under him. There are a number of reasons why I think his death doesn't really work on the show but the biggest is that I never felt the stakes were set up as well as they should be. If he'd lived for just another episode (after all we don't see Stannis at all between 205 and 208 so it's not because they wanted to build up Stannis more) or just another few scenes that really built up how strong his position was the moment would hit harder. Also the suddenness of the shadow baby's swooping in and the low budget CGI of the show's early years didn't make for too good a moment. Though it was weak at the end of 204, it at least works as a good horror moment (which IMO is GrrM's strongest suit, horror writing) that is just viscerally creepy even if the effects are underwhelming. IMO the way to have done Renly's death better would be to do the same. Not have it as a sudden thing but set up a sense of suspense building up to his death so that despite their lower CGI budget back then, it would feel more natural within the scene. They kind of tried going in that direction by having the episode open with the wind rustling outside the tent and hinting at what the wind might then bring in...and it's not the like the previously-on would have allowed the viewer to forget the shadow baby. Still though. I really feel the suspense of the moment could've been done way better. Particularly if Renly had been made to seem more bulletproof leading up to it. Also the shadow baby just disappearing instead of sweeping out of the tent or something seemed like to quick a fix effects-wise. Again, I understand what their production limitations were at the time. But the staging of the scene left a lot to be desired. All of that said MF and Gwendoline's acting following it and the fight scene sold the importance of the moment after the fact. But the moment of Renly's death should've been a series-defining gut punch. It should've been a high point of the season instead of something in passing. Now I blame GrrM for that too since unless there's major followup with the shadowbinding angle with Mel's powers, I think he'd have been better to avoid such an overtly magical twist playing like that. If it's a one-off for Mel then it's a little too convenient writing. Which I really hope isn't the case. Mel ought to show some form of those powers again. Generally in terms of how Renly was written in the show, I never had a problem with his characterization being softened and making him less of a warrior and less like young Robert. But the fact that his importance was only really ever emphasized after his death rather than before, is an overall weakness that the show hasn't really made up for since. I wasn't a fan of the cutting of Renly's whole relationship with the Tyrells, rumours he was trying to insert Margaery in Cersei's place in the first book etc. But the books didn't build Renly too well either, I enjoy the dynamic between him and Stannis, and the line with Mel, but it does feel very rushed. The idea of Shadow Babies was pretty much a Deus Ex Machina to get Stannis an army and set up the inevitable Tyrell Alliance with the Lannister s. The most disappointing part about Renly in the show was the lack of any serious development of him as a character. He seems like a caricature in the way he acts as a king whereas book Renly comes off as more of a gallant, trying to be in someway like Robert. Also, I'd agree on the CGI but the costume design for Renly and his group was awful... his men are dressed in loose rags, he isn't much better and Margaery appears to be wearing a giant glasses case... Brienne's armour wasn't bad, but I'm not a fan of the Renly outfit. It doesn't look very regal. I think one thing season 2 as a whole really failed to do was build any of the five Kings other than Robb or Joffrey. Balon especially, since the iron born just came out as such a fringe issue that people forgot they existed.
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Post by dje on Sept 6, 2016 10:12:30 GMT -5
I didn't think this was that bad of an episode, Jon sets off on the journey that will shape his future, Arya becomes the Ghost of Harrenhal, Melisandre shows what she is capable of by killing Renly with Shadow Stannis, the Qarth scenes are so-so as usual, but we do get introduced to Quaithe.
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