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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 9:55:02 GMT -5
I found the charger for my Nook and decided to start re-reading "The Game of Thrones", not for the second time. I confess the first time I read the books, I skimmed through areas that I had recently seen on the series. It is either a credit to D&D, or a sad statement on their lack of creativity that the first seasons were taken so verbatim from them, but in reading through again I see the poor judgment that resulted in. I shorted the characters of the opportunity to introduce themselves to me through Martin's original intent.
For example: I never have like Theon. From the minute he tried to kill Summer right from Bran's arms he was a little bully in my eyes. Nothing against Alfie Allen. Now in the reading I'm discovering why I really dislike Theon - he's a suck-up, a brown-noser, a little punk. I like him even less in the books.
Catelyn's strength in light of all that befalls her family in those first chapters is colored by her abject hatred of Jon. Would I have the strength to love a child my husband fathered with 'another woman'? I can see why Ned didn't confide Lyanna's secret to her all those years ago. She would have thrown the child out of a tower herself if she'd known he was the son of Lyanna and therefore Rhaegar.
The Stark family evokes all that the romantic notions of Chivalry represent: honor, loyalty, nobless oblige. (I know it's misspelled.) The age of might is right. Then they are plucked from the safety of their world to interact with the vipers and lechers and pretenders who are the reality of that age. There is no light without the dark, there is no good without profound evil. At its core, that what GoT is all about - testing one's self against the horrors of reality. Who are we when the crowds go away and the adoration stops? And what do any of these machinations mean when faced with true evil?
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Post by izzue on Sept 5, 2016 12:26:16 GMT -5
Lady Sansa's Direwolf, I'm so glad you're rereading, starting with AGOT. I've given up on trying to keep up with the HBO re-watch but have been hoping somebody would start a re-read. Maybe we could do it together - how far have you gotten?
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Post by Diablotion on Sept 5, 2016 15:07:07 GMT -5
I'm currently at the end of ACOK. Skipping some chapters that do not interest me (sorry ACOK Dany, you're kinda dull ) The sheer detail in the books is astounding. The sheer amount of characters. I'm concentrating in Stannis and the North (surprise surprise). I realized that the first few times I read the series, I read it with haste and not with full concentration. I really thought Bran and Rickon died when I first read the series.. GRRM made it painfully obvious. I loved the way the books introduced Ramsay. I thought showTheon was nicer than his book counterpart, the book one was a colossal twat who 100% deserved what was coming to him.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 15:29:45 GMT -5
Lady Sansa's Direwolf , I'm so glad you're rereading, starting with AGOT. I've given up on trying to keep up with the HBO re-watch but have been hoping somebody would start a re-read. Maybe we could do it together - how far have you gotten? I am starting Chapter 20 - Eddard IV. I can hold up if you need me to.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 15:32:50 GMT -5
I'm currently at the end of ACOK. Skipping some chapters that do not interest me (sorry ACOK Dany, you're kinda dull ) The sheer detail in the books is astounding. The sheer amount of characters. I'm concentrating in Stannis and the North (surprise surprise). I realized that the first few times I read the series, I read it with haste and not with full concentration. I really thought Bran and Rickon died when I first read the series.. GRRM made it painfully obvious. I loved the way the books introduced Ramsay. I thought showTheon was nicer than his book counterpart, the book one was a colossal twat who 100% deserved what was coming to him. This!!! Reading now back in the early chapters it's easy to see how Theon could be so easily swayed by Balon and his talk. He thinks the world revolves around him, and right now, I'm cheering what's to come.
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Post by Basil on Sept 5, 2016 16:12:00 GMT -5
Catelyn's strength in light of all that befalls her family in those first chapters is colored by her abject hatred of Jon. Would I have the strength to love a child my husband fathered with 'another woman'? I can see why Ned didn't confide Lyanna's secret to her all those years ago. She would have thrown the child out of a tower herself if she'd known he was the son of Lyanna and therefore Rhaegar. You think Catelyn would have thrown baby Jon of a tower if she had known her husband was merely protecting his nephew from Robert's wrath? That makes zero sense to me, to be honest.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Sept 5, 2016 16:23:46 GMT -5
I can't really see Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower, but if she knew the truth about Jon it's possible she would have told Lysa and that probably wouldn't have gone very well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 16:33:16 GMT -5
I think Eddard should have told Catelyn, because Catelyn would have kept Ned's secret and even been able to overcome her bitterness towards Jon. Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower? What? I hope that's just hyperbole. It doesn't make sense to me. In fact, I think the exact opposite would have been the case. As I said, Catelyn would have felt obligated to protect Jon.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Sept 5, 2016 16:39:08 GMT -5
I think Eddard should have told Catelyn, because Catelyn would have kept Ned's secret and even been able to overcome her bitterness towards Jon. Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower? What? I hope that's just hyperbole. And as I said, I think the exact opposite would have been the case. Catelyn would have felt obligated to protect Jon. I think the only issue would be is people could start to suspect something is off because if Ned's lie was to say Jon was his bastard, not sure people would believe that if Cat started acting more motherly and kind towards Jon.
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Post by Basil on Sept 5, 2016 16:44:45 GMT -5
Catelyn loathed the fact that Jon was Ned's bastard, that her husband was unfaithful to her and then insulted her honor even further by bringing the baby back home and raising him as one of her own. She didn't really hate Jon as a person, she probably didn't even know him all that well, as they barely spoke a word to each other.
If Ned had told her the truth about Jon's parentage, maybe not at the start but after a few years of marriage, we have no reason to believe that she would have been anything other than supportive of him and protective of Jon. I really can't see her blurting out Ned's deepest secret to Lysa, or anyone else for that matter. There is also no way in hell she would have harmed the baby. I don't even understand where that strange idea came from.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 17:01:32 GMT -5
I think Eddard should have told Catelyn, because Catelyn would have kept Ned's secret and even been able to overcome her bitterness towards Jon. Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower? What? I hope that's just hyperbole. And as I said, I think the exact opposite would have been the case. Catelyn would have felt obligated to protect Jon. I think the only issue would be is people could start to suspect something is off because if Ned's lie was to say Jon was his bastard, not sure people would believe that if Cat started acting more motherly and kind towards Jon. I think people would have had two reactions: they would have admired Catelyn for her kindness and strength or they would have called her a doormat for loving Eddard no matter what. But I don't think anyone would have suspected anything.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 5, 2016 18:31:29 GMT -5
I can't really see Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower, but if she knew the truth about Jon it's possible she would have told Lysa and that probably wouldn't have gone very well. Idt she and Lysa were really in close contact, given the shock of their reunion at the Eyrie and that Brynden had to fill her in about how unhappy Lysa was. Also I doubt anyone outside of the Winterfell household would have noticed or cared how Cat treated Jon. If anyone was going to wonder about Rhaegar/Lyanna it would have been based on what was already known, that they were shacked up for quite a while and that Lyanna died suddenly of natural causes with Ned at her side and he came back home with a bastard son, not bc Ned's wife loved him and grew to care for his bastard. But no one who knew Ned seemed at all intrigued by those known facts of R+L. They had their own lives to lead and no reason to give as much thought to Jon Snow as we do.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 5, 2016 18:55:22 GMT -5
So glad to have a topic that has garnered interest. Let me explain my post further.
Everything in Catelyn Tully's life changed because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. Without that, she would have married Brandon and Ned most likely would have wed Ashara Dayne or some other highborn daughter. But then the lovers run. Brandon and Lord Rickard are murdered by the Mad King, and Catelyn finds herself married to a stranger, the younger brother thrust suddenly into lordship due to a heinous crime. No sooner are they wed and she's pregnant with Robb as Ned goes off to fight Robert's Rebellion. She's left alone at Winterfell, in the company of more strangers. Even Lysa deserted her for an infatuation with Littlefinger.
After a hard first pregnancy, and going through the changes that accompany post-partum, her gallant stranger returned from the war minus his entire family (save for Benjen who is a brother of the Night's Watch) with a small baby boy he will say nothing more about than he is Ned's son. Even when she asks him, in Chapter 6, Catelyn II, Ned replies,
"Never ask me about John,' he said, cold as ice. 'He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard <Ashara's> name, my lady.'"
"It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastard's for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she born him. Somehow that made it worse."
There is no love there for Jon, period. Even knowing Ned couldn't take the boy to court, she refuses to allow him to stay at Winterfell with Robb. Remember, in the book Robb and Jon are only 14. That's a hard age to throw a boy to the mercy of the Night's Watch. While I agree she wouldn't have thrown the baby Jon out of a tower window, when she looks at him from beside Bran's bed and says, "I wish it had been you," she isn't kidding.
Much is made of Catelyn and her love for her children, but to me her total lack of love or mercy for Jon says so much more about character than anything.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Sept 5, 2016 18:56:03 GMT -5
I can't really see Catelyn throwing a baby out of a tower, but if she knew the truth about Jon it's possible she would have told Lysa and that probably wouldn't have gone very well. Idt she and Lysa were really in close contact, given the shock of their reunion at the Eyrie and that Brynden had to fill her in about how unhappy Lysa was. Also I doubt anyone outside of the Winterfell household would have noticed or cared how Cat treated Jon. If anyone was going to wonder about Rhaegar/Lyanna it would have been based on what was already known, that they were shacked up for quite a while and that Lyanna died suddenly of natural causes with Ned at her side and he came back home with a bastard son, not bc Ned's wife loved him and grew to care for his bastard. But no one who knew Ned seemed at all intrigued by those known facts of R+L. They had their own lives to lead and no reason to give as much thought to Jon Snow as we do. I really fucked up that analysis of what would happen if Ned told Cat, didn't I. Well from Ned's perspective besides Lyanna's "Promise Me", he chose not to tell Cat because if Robert did ever find out somehow, she wouldn't be held responsible since she didn't know the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 19:09:57 GMT -5
So glad to have a topic that has garnered interest. Let me explain my post further. Everything in Catelyn Tully's life changed because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. Without that, she would have married Brandon and Ned most likely would have wed Ashara Dayne or some other highborn daughter. But then the lovers run. Brandon and Lord Rickard are murdered by the Mad King, and Catelyn finds herself married to a stranger, the younger brother thrust suddenly into lordship due to a heinous crime. No sooner are they wed and she's pregnant with Robb as Ned goes off to fight Robert's Rebellion. She's left alone at Winterfell, in the company of more strangers. Even Lysa deserted her for an infatuation with Littlefinger. After a hard first pregnancy, and going through the changes that accompany post-partum, her gallant stranger returned from the war minus his entire family (save for Benjen who is a brother of the Night's Watch) with a small baby boy he will say nothing more about than he is Ned's son. Even when she asks him, in Chapter 6, Catelyn II, Ned replies, "Never ask me about John,' he said, cold as ice. 'He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard <Ashara's> name, my lady.'" "It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastard's for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she born him. Somehow that made it worse." There is no love there for Jon, period. Even knowing Ned couldn't take the boy to court, she refuses to allow him to stay at Winterfell with Robb. Remember, in the book Robb and Jon are only 14. That's a hard age to throw a boy to the mercy of the Night's Watch. While I agree she wouldn't have thrown the baby Jon out of a tower window, when she looks at him from beside Bran's bed and says, "I wish it had been you," she isn't kidding.
Much is made of Catelyn and her love for her children, but to me her total lack of love or mercy for Jon says so much more about character than anything. Catelyn was not kidding when she said that, but it was also during a very extraordinary period in her life. She did not love Jon, but we have no reason to assume that she was an evil stepmother to him. As far as we know, Jon had a lot of privileges and Catelyn let him be most of his life. She only said that to him because she was in a very bad place. It was an isolated incident and we should treat it as such. But that's not the most revelant point I want to make anyway. The point is that Catelyn does not hate Jon because he is Jon. She dislikes him because he is walking talking proof of Eddard's infidelity. Her reason to dislike Jon would be gone if she knew the truth. She does not hate him because Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love. That has absolutely nothing to do with that and if she knew the truth about his parentage, I bet she would be much more forgiving of that than you think. In fact, I'm positive she would not care about that at all. Her sole problem with Jon is that he is living mockery of her marriage. If she knew the truth, she would have no reason whatsoever to dislike him.
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