Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 18:11:57 GMT -5
This is a topic that is really important to me. Both the show and the books are very heavy on these themes: death, nihilism and morality. This thread is meant to be an ongoing discussion thread, where we can discuss these themes in depth and what effect they have on our characters. I'm thinking primarily about Jon and Arya here, but obviously this also relates to Beric and Stoneheart and all the religious figures (Melisandre, Thoros, the High Sparrow...) and many other characters as well. Also, let's not forget The Others. After all D&D said about the NK that he was practically death itself. This is a really big topic in our story with many different aspects. You can look at questions about death or morality or religion in GoT completely isolated from each other, but often these concepts are interconnected. I don't want to restrict the topic of this thread as long as you guys stay within that semantic field. I cannot wait to hear your input. Here are some initial thoughts to get us started:
I think Jon might be a good point to begin the discussion. At the end of S5, he experienced death and as you all know he was brought back to life in S6. Some fans argue that the way the show dealt with Jon's resurrection was a bit disappointing. To many it seemed like he hadn't changed at all. This assessment has some truth to it, I think. His change “post-mortem” so to speak is not as radical as we thought it would be. He is more or less still the same Jon we always knew. Except I think his outlook on life has changed drastically. Let me explain.
To me Jon is probably the closest thing this story has to a hero. He may not be Ned's biological son, but he has inherited his father's moral compass for sure. He is an highly idealistic character and tries to treat people as an end to themselves. Morality determines his actions and when put into an ethical dilemma, he is always very hard on himself (“I've done plenty wrong”). His death, however, marks a pretty radical shift in this. Now, I'm not saying that he suddenly became immoral. He didn't. But he saw the absolute nothingness that awaited him in death and that challenged his way of thinking about life and about what's right and what's wrong. Jon obviously had a metaphysical understanding of morality. It was an absolute concept to him, but faced with the abyss he started struggling in seeing the point. Justice, morality, loyalty, honour... where do these concepts come from? How can they be explained? Do they really exist or are they just man-made and don't bear any “true” meaning beyond that?
When Sansa confronts Jon with her intentions to retake Winterfell from the Boltons, he seems war-weary and generally tired. To him there is no point in fighting anymore. If all that awaits him is nothingness, why should he go on? Fans criticised Jon's depiction from 6x03 until 6x09 because he seemed passive and almost suicidal (he wanted to go to battle even though he knew they didn't stand a chance without more men). However, this is not bad writing. It is a man who saw death for what it is: a cold black darkness. Nothing at all. But then Ramsay kills Jon's brother Rickon. And in that moment Jon “loses it”. It is a wake-up-call. Even though nothingness awaits him and the world is nothing but absurd, he realizes that he, himself, is real. Rickon's blood is real. The life they are living now is real. It suddenly becomes about the moment he is experiencing in that instant instead of what will be or not be after he's dead. When he draws that sword facing the Bolton army all alone – a seemingly invincible foe – he accepts the challenge even though he knows he is probably doomed. He's like Sisyphus trying to roll up that huge boulder up the hill. A vain endeavour. Ramsay is most likely going to kill him. But Jon knows it has to be done. Even though absurdity will win in the end and to Jon there is no doubt about that - he saw death in the face after all - he still cannot give up. Resisting it, trying to fight it, is the only thing Jon can do. It's the only way he knows how to fight the absurd. Jon the hero suddenly becomes Jon the existentialist hero. Ygritte's words make a lot more sense now: “All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we'll live.”
I think Jon might be a good point to begin the discussion. At the end of S5, he experienced death and as you all know he was brought back to life in S6. Some fans argue that the way the show dealt with Jon's resurrection was a bit disappointing. To many it seemed like he hadn't changed at all. This assessment has some truth to it, I think. His change “post-mortem” so to speak is not as radical as we thought it would be. He is more or less still the same Jon we always knew. Except I think his outlook on life has changed drastically. Let me explain.
To me Jon is probably the closest thing this story has to a hero. He may not be Ned's biological son, but he has inherited his father's moral compass for sure. He is an highly idealistic character and tries to treat people as an end to themselves. Morality determines his actions and when put into an ethical dilemma, he is always very hard on himself (“I've done plenty wrong”). His death, however, marks a pretty radical shift in this. Now, I'm not saying that he suddenly became immoral. He didn't. But he saw the absolute nothingness that awaited him in death and that challenged his way of thinking about life and about what's right and what's wrong. Jon obviously had a metaphysical understanding of morality. It was an absolute concept to him, but faced with the abyss he started struggling in seeing the point. Justice, morality, loyalty, honour... where do these concepts come from? How can they be explained? Do they really exist or are they just man-made and don't bear any “true” meaning beyond that?
When Sansa confronts Jon with her intentions to retake Winterfell from the Boltons, he seems war-weary and generally tired. To him there is no point in fighting anymore. If all that awaits him is nothingness, why should he go on? Fans criticised Jon's depiction from 6x03 until 6x09 because he seemed passive and almost suicidal (he wanted to go to battle even though he knew they didn't stand a chance without more men). However, this is not bad writing. It is a man who saw death for what it is: a cold black darkness. Nothing at all. But then Ramsay kills Jon's brother Rickon. And in that moment Jon “loses it”. It is a wake-up-call. Even though nothingness awaits him and the world is nothing but absurd, he realizes that he, himself, is real. Rickon's blood is real. The life they are living now is real. It suddenly becomes about the moment he is experiencing in that instant instead of what will be or not be after he's dead. When he draws that sword facing the Bolton army all alone – a seemingly invincible foe – he accepts the challenge even though he knows he is probably doomed. He's like Sisyphus trying to roll up that huge boulder up the hill. A vain endeavour. Ramsay is most likely going to kill him. But Jon knows it has to be done. Even though absurdity will win in the end and to Jon there is no doubt about that - he saw death in the face after all - he still cannot give up. Resisting it, trying to fight it, is the only thing Jon can do. It's the only way he knows how to fight the absurd. Jon the hero suddenly becomes Jon the existentialist hero. Ygritte's words make a lot more sense now: “All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we'll live.”