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Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 11:08:48 GMT -5
tbh at moments like these it annoys me of how much a white knight show tyrion has become. can you guys imagine season 2 tyrion questioning dany for killing traitors? i can't. from seasons 1-4 while the showrunners made tyrion more palatable, he was still a little morally ambiguous and grey and interesting. but since season 5, he's just been a Good Guy and nothing else. i don't really care that they didn't make him as dark as ADWD tyrion or whatever. but him just being so saintly annoys me lol. not only is it boring, but also a little lame and ham-fisted at moments like these. meh. This. I think it's a good thing that Tyrion helps deflate Dany's temper, but I don't like the sanctimoniousness of it. It's not like he's a saint, at least not in the books. It should come off more like, "Listen, I've gone down this road, you don't want to do that trust me." Instead of the white knight version we are getting. tbh at moments like these it annoys me of how much a white knight show tyrion has become. can you guys imagine season 2 tyrion questioning dany for killing traitors? i can't. from seasons 1-4 while the showrunners made tyrion more palatable, he was still a little morally ambiguous and grey and interesting. but since season 5, he's just been a Good Guy and nothing else. i don't really care that they didn't make him as dark as ADWD tyrion or whatever. but him just being so saintly annoys me lol. not only is it boring, but also a little lame and ham-fisted at moments like these. meh. They didn't have to have him raping bed slaves, but they could have kept some of his darker moments from the books. Put someone in a stew, not kill Shae out of self defense, something. I can't imagine book Tyrion even batting an eye over Dany roasting someone with her dragons. Exactly. It should come from a place of experience and not holier than thou.
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Post by King Tommen on May 23, 2017 11:48:33 GMT -5
Well we might want to see the scene play out first before trying to question motives and what's going through characters' heads. We've fallen into this trap before when trying to parse one line descriptions from leaks. I would imagine Tyrion's reaction will be closely in line with the audience's since he is often used as an audience surrogate.
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Post by King Tommen on May 23, 2017 12:00:51 GMT -5
Quick list of times Dany had her enemies die a painful death: Gave the ok to her husband to pour liquid gold on her brother Viserys, burned Mirri alive in a pyre, had her dragons roast Pyat Pree, locked Xaro and Doreah in an airtight vault, had Kraznys and his masters roasted and murdered, killed 1 Mereen master for every slave on a stake, had another Mereen master eaten by dragons after Selmy died, a bunch of Dothraki khals burnt to death in a tent, had Greyworm slit the throats of the Yunkish guys opposing her, had her dragons destroy every Yunish/Mereenese/Volantine person the ships outside Meereen. Why would it be so out of character that she has the shithead Tarly's who betrayed her ally and who refused to bend the knee roasted? It would be weird if she didn't. While Dany most certainly has a ruthless streak, her ruthlessness has been directed at those who hurt others. She is impulsive at times and that something she certainly has to work towards but that is part of the growing pains of most rulers especially a ruler who has had to learn in such a violent environment. As for your list, I think it's very disingenuous of you to include some of these there. 1. "Gave the ok to her husband to pour liquid gold on her brother Visery" - This is bullshit and you know it. This is neither true in the show or the books and while Dany was well within her right to want her brother punished after he threaten to carve her child out her body, she didn't give the "okay" for Drogo to pour molten gold on her brother's head. She merely chose not to plead for her brother. Knowing full well, as we do int he books, that nothing she said would have changed what was about to happen. Also, how the hell would she know that that would be the punishment Drogo came up with. I know Dany is extraordinarily talented, but I didn't realize she was a mind reader. 2. "burned Mirri alive in a pyre" - Indeed she did and while I don't blame Mirri for what she did to Drogo (he deserved it) I do blame her for the murder of Rhaego. Again, Dany was well within her right to execute her for murdering her child. 3. "had her dragons roast Pyat Pree," - Again, complete bullshit. She was literally chained up by Pyat Pree and told she would be a slave for all eternity. What the hell was she suppose to do, talk her way out of the situation. This was clearly a case of self defense. 4. "locked Xaro and Doreah in an airtight vaul" - I will agree that this was a cruel punishment. Both Doreah and Xaro betrayed Dany and had most of her household murdered but she could have probably just had them executed for their crimes. 5. "had Kraznys and his masters roasted and murdered" - Live by the sword die by the sword. Those Masters were beyond cruel and deserved everything they got. 6. "killed 1 Mereen master for every slave on a stake" - No one ever thinks about the kids. Not a problem with this one. 7. " had another Mereen master eaten by dragons after Selmy died" - This is the one time I was actually upset and would say even given the circumstances her action was questionable. 8. " a bunch of Dothraki khals burnt to death in a tent" -After they threaten to rape and murder her. Self-defense. 9. "had Greyworm slit the throats of the Yunkish guys opposing her" - They declared war on Dany after being given multiple opportunities. Well within the rules of war. 10. "had her dragons destroy every Yunish/Mereenese/Volantine person the ships outside Meereen" - They only destroyed one ship as a show of power to get the soldiers to abandon the Master. She was actually being incredibly benevolent as they were attacking her city and killing her people. She actually gave the slave soldiers freedom in exchange for abandoning the Master war on Meereen., This act saved thousands of lives. It's admirable. The motives for all these examples are different as were many of the circumstances obviously. I am not trying to judge the amount of justification for each act as that's not something I'm really all that concerned about. It's just more of an illustration that if she is pushed, she can demonstrate a lack of control over the ruthlessness of her response. And I would never argue that the things she does are typically to people who deserve punishment and who also are kind of awful people as well. But let's not obstruct the fact that the level of Dany's ruthlessness and desire for vengeance against her enemies is a series-long character question for her. She has on a number of occasions, gone over the line of what a compassionate person would do in the same situation. The show (and books) is exploring this and it wants the audience to question what this means for her as a ruler. I know I get in trouble when I mention anything to do with Targaryen hereditary issues but the show and books definitely want us to think about this being a character trait that she needs to wrestle with. She's her father's daughter and while her upbringing and trials in life have shaped her into a much more well-rounded person, she has that itch and it's a thing she'll have to fight against. Them including a scene this season where she reacts impulsively and ruthlessly against the Tarly's is only a continuation of this and we're supposed to continue to keep this in the back of our minds as we cheer for her to wipe out her enemies. It's some shading and I'm glad they're doing it. People who love Dany shouldn't be pushing back against this shading since it makes her a more complex and interesting character.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 12:34:33 GMT -5
Dany is not going to stop mercilessly killing the people who she believes have done wrong to her. She's been doing it since S1, people need to be ok with this if they're going to accept her as a ruler. People dislike it when it comes to her because she's a woman and I hate to bring up gender card but I have to. Stannis did that and people were fine with it. One True King! Jon executed a child, almost Ramsay to death. When you look at it, he's displays far more agressive or radical killings than many other characters. He was justified in those killings or acts, but same way Dany or others. I can't remember right now if we discussed this on a different thread or somewhere else but this was pretty much our conclusion. The Tarleys betrayed their liege Lady and sided with the woman who murdered his former liege Lord. They declare war on them in order to gain power. Dany goes on to defend her ally and when she captures the Tarlys she gives them the option to bend the knee and presumably forgive their betrayal or be lenient in her punishment but they refuse. So she has them executed. That's well within the her right as the victorious party in a war. I'm sure before going down Papa Tarly will say some racist shit about the Dothraki being as he is a xenophobic as we saw with how he behaved with Gilly. I feel sort of sorry for Dickon but then agains people can be manipulated very easily. Papa Tarly said we're going to war with these barbaric people, invaders and he'll go. I wouldn't be surprised if Dickon's death will seen as "mad act" or if producers plays that Aerys card again "Oh look she's getting mad more and more." It's a cheap thing to do when we know they won't go there per their words - but for the sake of drama. Let's have Tyrion and Varys of all people question her judgement because they're morally clean so to speak, right? I really dislike this part of spoilers. I disagree with this. Although when it comes to Stannis, him being a man and easy for dudebros to rally round with their 'STANNIS THE MANNIS' warcry bullshit I do agree. But Stannis is not a hero, and we are meant to be critical of him. Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Jon holds, as the criticisms against Dany and her ruthlessness aren't because she isn't justified (although there are cases where she definitely isn't justified), the criticisms are levelled entirely at her rather brutal and, honestly, cruel methods of dealing with some of her enemies. Burning people alive is not the same as executing murderers and mutineers by hanging or beheading. But I agree with King Tommen, that this issue is a key theme with Dany and her story. She threatened to raze Meereen at least twice and both times had people close to her challenge her and/or convince her to take a softer approach. But that isn't a criticism of her character. It's OK to question some of your favourites actions! Lord knows I have questioned some of Sansa's enough
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Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 12:41:30 GMT -5
People dislike it when it comes to her because she's a woman and I hate to bring up gender card but I have to. Stannis did that and people were fine with it. One True King! Jon executed a child, almost Ramsay to death. When you look at it, he's displays far more agressive or radical killings than many other characters. He was justified in those killings or acts, but same way Dany or others. I feel sort of sorry for Dickon but then agains people can be manipulated very easily. Papa Tarly said we're going to war with these barbaric people, invaders and he'll go. I wouldn't be surprised if Dickon's death will seen as "mad act" or if producers plays that Aerys card again "Oh look she's getting mad more and more." It's a cheap thing to do when we know they won't go there per their words - but for the sake of drama. Let's have Tyrion and Varys of all people question her judgement because they're morally clean so to speak, right? I really dislike this part of spoilers. I disagree with this. Although when it comes to Stannis, him being a man and easy for dudebros to rally round with their 'STANNIS THE MANNIS' warcry bullshit I do agree. But Stannis is not a hero, and we are meant to be critical of him. Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Jon holds, as the criticisms against Dany and her ruthlessness aren't because she isn't justified (although there are cases where she definitely isn't justified), the criticisms are levelled entirely at her rather brutal and, honestly, cruel methods of dealing with some of her enemies . Burning people alive is not the same as executing murderers and mutineers by hanging or beheading. But I agree with King Tommen , that this issue is a key theme with Dany and her story. She threatened to raze Meereen at least twice and both times had people close to her challenge her and/or convince her to take a softer approach. But that isn't a criticism of her character. It's OK to question some of your favourites actions! Lord knows I have questioned some of Sansa's enough I have to head to a meeting now but the bolded comment really earked me. Both hanging and beheading and incredibly pailful ways to die. It can take up to 15 minutes to die from a hanging. And cutting someone's head off is not as easy as that, most of the times, in real life, it takes multiple swings. But if goes to show the double standard that there is in the fandom.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 12:52:59 GMT -5
I disagree with this. Although when it comes to Stannis, him being a man and easy for dudebros to rally round with their 'STANNIS THE MANNIS' warcry bullshit I do agree. But Stannis is not a hero, and we are meant to be critical of him. Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Jon holds, as the criticisms against Dany and her ruthlessness aren't because she isn't justified (although there are cases where she definitely isn't justified), the criticisms are levelled entirely at her rather brutal and, honestly, cruel methods of dealing with some of her enemies . Burning people alive is not the same as executing murderers and mutineers by hanging or beheading. But I agree with King Tommen , that this issue is a key theme with Dany and her story. She threatened to raze Meereen at least twice and both times had people close to her challenge her and/or convince her to take a softer approach. But that isn't a criticism of her character. It's OK to question some of your favourites actions! Lord knows I have questioned some of Sansa's enough I have to head to a meeting now but the bolded comment really earked me. Both hanging and beheading and incredibly pailful ways to die. It can take up to 15 minutes to die from a hanging. And cutting someone's head off is not as easy as that, most of the times, in real life, it takes multiple swings. But if goes to show the double standard that there is in the fandom. It is not a double standard. I'm sure both hanging and beheading are horrible ways to go, but are you seriously going to say that they are no better than being burnt alive?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 12:59:21 GMT -5
Mmmm, I think double standards are in place. Just my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:00:34 GMT -5
I disagree with this. Although when it comes to Stannis, him being a man and easy for dudebros to rally round with their 'STANNIS THE MANNIS' warcry bullshit I do agree. But Stannis is not a hero, and we are meant to be critical of him. Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Jon holds, as the criticisms against Dany and her ruthlessness aren't because she isn't justified (although there are cases where she definitely isn't justified), the criticisms are levelled entirely at her rather brutal and, honestly, cruel methods of dealing with some of her enemies . Burning people alive is not the same as executing murderers and mutineers by hanging or beheading. But I agree with King Tommen , that this issue is a key theme with Dany and her story. She threatened to raze Meereen at least twice and both times had people close to her challenge her and/or convince her to take a softer approach. But that isn't a criticism of her character. It's OK to question some of your favourites actions! Lord knows I have questioned some of Sansa's enough I have to head to a meeting now but the bolded comment really earked me. Both hanging and beheading and incredibly pailful ways to die. It can take up to 15 minutes to die from a hanging. And cutting someone's head off is not as easy as that, most of the times, in real life, it takes multiple swings. But if goes to show the double standard that there is in the fandom. Being eaten alive by hungry dogs sounds like a pretty awful way to die as well. I don't see that brought up in these discussions though. But then again Ramsay killed or hurt characters we're actually invested in, as opposed to nameless slave children.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:15:00 GMT -5
I have to head to a meeting now but the bolded comment really earked me. Both hanging and beheading and incredibly pailful ways to die. It can take up to 15 minutes to die from a hanging. And cutting someone's head off is not as easy as that, most of the times, in real life, it takes multiple swings. But if goes to show the double standard that there is in the fandom. Being eaten alive by hungry dogs sounds like a pretty awful way to die as well. I don't see that brought up in these discussions though. But then again Ramsay killed or hurt characters we're actually invested in, as opposed to nameless slave children. It wasn't brought up because no one was talking about Sansa or Ramsay, but now that you have brought it up I will agree that it was a cold and brutal death. And I would also like to add that the fact that Sansa seemingly enjoyed it is often brought up as a character flaw. But I can acknowledge this and still love the character. I also love Dany! But I'm not going to try and argue that she doesn't have a cruel streak, even if that cruelty is reserved mostly for people who deserve it.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:24:32 GMT -5
Being eaten alive by hungry dogs sounds like a pretty awful way to die as well. I don't see that brought up in these discussions though. But then again Ramsay killed or hurt characters we're actually invested in, as opposed to nameless slave children. It wasn't brought up because no one was talking about Sansa or Ramsay, but now that you have brought it up I will agree that it was a cold and brutal death. And I would also like to add that the fact that Sansa seemingly enjoyed it is often brought up as a character flaw. But I can acknowledge this and still love the character. I also love Dany! But I'm not going to try and argue that she doesn't have a cruel streak, even if that cruelty is reserved mostly for people who deserve it. Yeah, fair enough. I'm just pointing out that Dany's methods are not unusually cruel for this world, but yet seem to be judged more critically than some of the other characters. A lot of it is because she's a Targaryen. I think she definitely got more shit for feeding the slaver to the dragons than Sansa did for feeding Ramsay to the dogs. And if she did something like feed a man his son's before killing him the madness arguments would never stop.
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Post by sercreighton on May 23, 2017 13:32:37 GMT -5
Quick list of times Dany had her enemies die a painful death: Gave the ok to her husband to pour liquid gold on her brother Viserys, burned Mirri alive in a pyre, had her dragons roast Pyat Pree, locked Xaro and Doreah in an airtight vault, had Kraznys and his masters roasted and murdered, killed 1 Mereen master for every slave on a stake, had another Mereen master eaten by dragons after Selmy died, a bunch of Dothraki khals burnt to death in a tent, had Greyworm slit the throats of the Yunkish guys opposing her, had her dragons destroy every Yunish/Mereenese/Volantine person the ships outside Meereen. Why would it be so out of character that she has the shithead Tarly's who betrayed her ally and who refused to bend the knee roasted? It would be weird if she didn't. Lets add a little context. Never gave the okay for Drogo to kill Viserys. Begged Viserys to stop what he was doing, offered herself and her eggs to him. Viserys broke the most ancient law of Vaes Dothrak the punishment was death, Drogo executed him. There was no getting out of it and sshe had no control over that situation. Pyat Pree stole her dragons, and tried to enslave her on the show, he is alive in the books or was. Her dragons saved her. In the books the warlocks tried to kill her 3 times. On the show he tried to enslave her and her dragons for his own use, she acted in self defense both books and show. Xaro and Doreah murdered her people and were part of the dragon stealing plot. Xaro is alive in the books. Yes she started a war against the Masters of Astapor who had to be stopped and were killed for slavery and crimes against humanity not the least of which was the practice of baby murder and using children as sport in Bear baiting. Executed the Masters for the execution and murder of children, punishment fit the crime. Yep she killed a slave Master using her dragons on the show after the sons of the Harpy had risen. She killed a bunch of Khals who had taken her prisoner, and were planning on raping and murdering her. She used the only thing she could to protect herself. So this is the second occassion of self defense. Did not have Greyworm do anything, that was Tyrion. Greyworm also gave the slave soilders the option to leave. Dany Burnt one ship, not the entire fleet, one ship that was attacking her city. They took the rest of the ships. So your final statment is either a deliberate exaggeration to fit your narrative or you miss remember... a lot. I don't mind questioning anyone's method but get your facts right, most of what you said was either deliberatly out of context or wrong. Wrong on her brother, wrong on the fleet, wrong on Greyworm, and you seem deliberatly obtuse to any actions commited by the slavers or acts of self defense. It's easy to remove context to guide the narrative of a given argument. Add in the context and she is not exactly as ruthless as you say, angry? Oh very angry, then again if feeding children to bears for sport, murdering babies, and slavery don't make you angry, there is probably something seriously wrong with you. You know if you include acts of self defense nd the books have Xaro and Pyat still alive, then what you have is Dany executed 163 slave Masters and all the slave masters had it coming. She spared Yunkai the slavers broke the peace, funded the Harpies, and attacked Meereen, and no they have no right to enslave anyone because they claim it is part of their culture. Terrorist blows up a bunch of kids because his culture said too, that don't make it okay, that don;t make it a norm, it's a crime. Ruthless? Anyone can be ruthless, angry, vengeful, Dany did not start a war to end slavery because she is ruthless, she did not act in self defense because she is ruthless. She started a revolution and at times can be vengeful. Ruthless having no or little compasion for others. Dany's compassion is what drives her to end slavery. Compasion for the slaves, you know the victims of the Masters. Kind of hard to defend one without hurting the other. Dany tried compasion at Yunkai, didn't work, she tried to except parts of the Masters culture to find a balance including marrying one, didn't work. Tyrion tries diplomacy, didn't work. Does she lack compassion for the slavers? Yes, but then again everyone lacks compasion for slavers. Considering their crimes, they are getting off way easy.
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Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 13:35:01 GMT -5
I have to head to a meeting now but the bolded comment really earked me. Both hanging and beheading and incredibly pailful ways to die. It can take up to 15 minutes to die from a hanging. And cutting someone's head off is not as easy as that, most of the times, in real life, it takes multiple swings. But if goes to show the double standard that there is in the fandom. It is not a double standard. I'm sure both hanging and beheading are horrible ways to go, but are you seriously going to say that they are no better than being burnt alive? What Nic said but also this: You're suggesting that Jon hanging the mutineers is more justified than Dany burning the slavers is a double standard. The slavers literally covered children in honey and threw them at bears for entertainment (books) and of course there entire treatment of the Unsullied. Whatever the form of execution, at the end of the day it's execution.
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Post by sercreighton on May 23, 2017 13:35:41 GMT -5
Damn it MoIaF beat me too it I wrote that earlier today but had to go to Physical therapy before it was finished, I finished when I got home before checking to see if anything else had posted.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on May 23, 2017 13:36:14 GMT -5
Ok, didn't Tyrion say, "It's all killing people."
This ties into the theory of medieval justice. Which for most was carried out locally without trial or even a sheriff. It's also my argument against Targeryan heredity. The power to hand out life or death should never be taken light, no matter what the method of execution. Dany has a lot of power, and in those moments when she become enraged, that has a tendency to take first thoughts. Luckily she has had good councilors around her to remind her that she might want to take a second thought, which always led to a better solution.
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Post by moiaf on May 23, 2017 13:41:31 GMT -5
Bottom line, fans of Dany understand that she can be cruel and ruthless at times and that's not always a good thing. But she's never displayed these traits against people who haven't deserved it and has been one of the most empathetic and compassionate characters in the series. She's not fickle in her punishment and while we agree that her impulsiveness is not always a good thing, within her world she's not an outlier. And I think that's were we get defensive, where other characters hand out punishment very few bat an eye but anything she does is heavily scrutinized. Most of the time with complete bullshit argument which don't allow for an honest discussion.
I still think back (and recent they never used it in the show) to that scene in ADWD where the man spits in Dany's face and she doesn't have him punish because a part of her understands why he did that. Or the scene where she goes outside the walls of Meereen and cleans the sick who have come from Astapor. When no one else wanted to touch them.
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