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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 11:14:30 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced. That is to say, they both may survive, but I'm not sure they will be the same. Oh, I definitely don't think they'll be the same but more so Jon than Dany. For Dany she's done things that toe the line if you will, but Jon has kept his hand pretty clean. I don't think he's going to be able to in the War for Dawn and I think if he survives he'll be a very different person afterwards. I have a hard time imagining him as the "white knight" at the end of the series. my latest conclusion isn't so much about me coming up with a new and different theory of how the final war will go down but more in the sense of me thinking of basic tv rules and structure........................................mostly in regards to cersei. i think if jon and dany were to die in season 8, cersei would have been killed off in season 7. since cersei has to die for obvious reasons and she'll most likely die in season 8. i think jon and dany are safe. with season 8 being only 6 episodes, i think with cersei and jon/dany or both dying around the same time will take away the impact. D&D weren't even willing to have cersei's death overshadow littlefinger's in season 7. which it totally would have if cersei was killed off in season 7 imo. honestly, i now think that cersei will die in the series finale which means jon and dany are safe lol I'll be honest, i did not consider that. I still think that D&D are keeping to book canon for the major characters but if they were willing to push Cersei's death to season 8, it's going to be an epic death. And it probably won't be early in the season, mid-season (episode 3) at the earliest. If Jon and/or Dany die it'll probably be episode 6. You're right, it's not a lot of time in between pretty huge deaths. Hmm, I must ponder further. yeah i just don't think that cersei is going to be killed off early season 8. jaime is most likely her killer and i don't think jaime and cersei are going to reunite so early in season 8. if jon/dany were to die in season 8...it would definitely be in episode 6. and that would mean cersei would likely have to be killed in episode 5. a 1 week difference between such huge character deaths is not something i see D&D doing. and also if jon, dany, tyrion, arya, bran and sansa are ALL surviving the series........then i don't even think that D&D are "pushing back" cersei's death but more likely that even GRRM doesn't plan on killing her off till the end in the books also. Cersei as a POV character (and Jaime TOO) eclipses in importance of all other POV characters that aren't the Stark siblings and Tyrion and Dany.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 11:26:26 GMT -5
I think structurally all bets are off for the final season and definitely for the final episode. Everything is possible then. Oh definitely, but you also don't want it to be some Smörgåsbord of major characters dying left and right. You would want these things to have serious impact and push the story forward. That's not to say they won't die, I can still see it but I think belle has a good point. That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration.
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 11:36:03 GMT -5
Oh definitely, but you also don't want it to be some Smörgåsbord of major characters dying left and right. You would want these things to have serious impact and push the story forward. That's not to say they won't die, I can still see it but I think belle has a good point. That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration. That's a good point about villains vs. good guys. I wouldn't consider Jaime a villain, he's an in between, especially if he leaves Cersei to fight with the "good guys", I don't think we'll be loosing any more of the Stark kids (Sansa, Arya or Bran) and I have a hard time seeing Tyrion dying although, that's a possibility. Okay so maybe we should come up with a list of the people on the side of the good guys and then we can see who could die of them. Jon Dany Brienne Pod Davos Gendry Sander Sam Gilly Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) Theon Jorah Varys Bron Tormund Melissandre (?) Edd Meera Have I forgotten anyone?
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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 11:36:11 GMT -5
Oh definitely, but you also don't want it to be some Smörgåsbord of major characters dying left and right. You would want these things to have serious impact and push the story forward. That's not to say they won't die, I can still see it but I think belle has a good point. That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration. well its the fact that this villain is cersei. i don't feel this way about euron or felt that way about ramsay,walder frey etc. i just think season 7 should be used to predict season 8 since its essentially part 1 of season 8. and IMO if D&D weren't willing to kill more important characters than LF in season 7 to lessen the impact of his death then i think they're likely to follow the same lead for season 8. for season 8, other important character deaths that i can see happening are melisandre, theon/yara or both, davos possibly, sandor. all important characters that have been present on the show whose deaths would definitely incite emotion from the audience but neither of these will overshadow or take away impact from cersei (and possibly jaime's) death
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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 11:44:28 GMT -5
That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration. That's a good point about villains vs. good guys. I wouldn't consider Jaime a villain, he's an in between, especially if he leaves Cersei to fight with the "good guys", I don't think we'll be loosing any more of the Stark kids (Sansa, Arya or Bran) and I have a hard time seeing Tyrion dying although, that's a possibility. Okay so maybe we should come up with a list of the people on the side of the good guys and then we can see who could die of them. Jon Dany Brienne Pod Davos Gendry Sander Sam Gilly Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) Theon Jorah Varys Bron Tormund Melissandre (?) Edd Meera Have I forgotten anyone? IMO: Jon : won't die Dany: won't die Brienne: maybe but i'm leaning towards her surviving the series Pod: 50/50 Davos: 50/50 Gendry: probably not. i think him being a minor character actually helps in regards to survival rate Sander: 50/50 Sam: won't die Gilly: won't die Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?): no idea Theon: 50/50 Jorah: if he didn't die from the greyscale, he's not dying in season 8 mo Varys: maybe since he's most likely to die in the books but his death on the show would probably be more heroic than what GRRM will write for him in the books Bron: maybe they'll give him a heroic death Tormund: i guess?? Melissandre (?): i definitely think that she's going to end up sacrificing herself Edd: yes Meera: nah, i think season 7 is likely the last we'll see of her so basically i'm pretty damn sure that jon, dany, sam, gilly, jorah and brienne will survive. melisandre is the major character that i feel most confident that is going to end up dying. other characters could go either way imo, since i don't think D&D will be using GRRM's info for that but are going to come up with their ends themselves.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 11:46:04 GMT -5
That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration. well its the fact that this villain is cersei. i don't feel this way about euron or felt that way about ramsay,walder frey etc. i just think season 7 should be used to predict season 8 since its essentially part 1 of season 8. and IMO if D&D weren't willing to kill more important characters than LF in season 7 to lessen the impact of his death then i think they're likely to follow the same lead for season 8. for season 8, other important character deaths that i can see happening are melisandre, theon/yara or both, davos possibly, sandor. all important characters that have been present on the show whose deaths would definitely incite emotion from the audience but neither of these will overshadow or take away impact from cersei (and possibly jaime's) death Well, you just assume that that's what happened in S7. That they didn't kill any more important characters in S7 in order not to lessen the impact of LF's death. I don't believe this is necessarily true. They just didn't kill anymore characters, because they were not there yet with the plot. It's just coincidential. I mean there have been seasons where a lot of characters died (S3, S4 and S6); often multiple deaths in the same episode or even in the same scene and then we have S2 where basically no one important died (I loved Renly but I don't consider him important). So I don't think that that argument works. They never had a problem with showing major characters die in the same season. However, I agree with your suggestions. Melisandre, Theon, Yara, Davos, Sandor are all strong possibilities. Looking at moiaf 's list, I think there are even more (Bronn maybe?).
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 11:47:51 GMT -5
That is correct, but I'm saying this because I noticed that you guys are naming villains as characters that are likely to die and concluding that there is not enough room for more deaths. Whereas I think that the "good guys" will need to have casualties as well for it to be effective and dramatic. But you are right that those don't have to be Dany or Jon. There are enough characters to take into consideration. well its the fact that this villain is cersei. i don't feel this way about euron or felt that way about ramsay,walder frey etc. i just think season 7 should be used to predict season 8 since its essentially part 1 of season 8. and IMO if D&D weren't willing to kill more important characters than LF in season 7 to lessen the impact of his death then i think they're likely to follow the same lead for season 8. for season 8, other important character deaths that i can see happening are melisandre, theon/yara or both, davos possibly, sandor. all important characters that have been present on the show whose deaths would definitely incite emotion from the audience but neither of these will overshadow or take away impact from cersei (and possibly jaime's) death Okay, let's get this Season 8 Death List going. I agree with you on Melisandre and Sandor. I don't think that both Theor and Yara will die, It'll be one of them. High Probability 1. Melisandre 2. Sandor 3. Tormond 4. Bron 5. Jorah 6. Yara Average Probability1. Jon 2. Dany 3. Davos 4. Pod 5. Gendry 6. Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) 7. Theon 8. Edd Low Probability
1. Brienne 2. Sam 3. Gilly 4. Varys 5. Meera
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 17, 2017 11:53:23 GMT -5
Honestly the only person I'm sure is dying Cersei. I even go back and forth on Jaime.
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 11:55:12 GMT -5
That's a good point about villains vs. good guys. I wouldn't consider Jaime a villain, he's an in between, especially if he leaves Cersei to fight with the "good guys", I don't think we'll be loosing any more of the Stark kids (Sansa, Arya or Bran) and I have a hard time seeing Tyrion dying although, that's a possibility. Okay so maybe we should come up with a list of the people on the side of the good guys and then we can see who could die of them. Jon Dany Brienne Pod Davos Gendry Sander Sam Gilly Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) Theon Jorah Varys Bron Tormund Melissandre (?) Edd Meera Have I forgotten anyone? IMO: Jon : won't die Dany: won't die Brienne: maybe but i'm leaning towards her surviving the series Pod: 50/50 Davos: 50/50 Gendry: probably not. i think him being a minor character actually helps in regards to survival rate Sander: 50/50 Sam: won't die Gilly: won't die Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?): no idea Theon: 50/50 Jorah: if he didn't die from the greyscale, he's not dying in season 8 moVarys: maybe since he's most likely to die in the books but his death on the show would probably be more heroic than what GRRM will write for him in the books Bron: maybe they'll give him a heroic death Tormund: i guess?? Melissandre (?): i definitely think that she's going to end up sacrificing herself Edd: yes Meera: nah, i think season 7 is likely the last we'll see of her so basically i'm pretty damn sure that jon, dany, sam, gilly, jorah and brienne will survive. melisandre is the major character that i feel most confident that is going to end up dying. other characters could go either way imo, since i don't think D&D will be using GRRM's info for that but are going to come up with their ends themselves. I have a gut feeling Jorah is dying. I think him getting cured is in order for him to achieve something else. My gut feeling is he sacrifices himself for Dany but I'm open to other suggestions.
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Post by moiaf on May 17, 2017 11:56:02 GMT -5
Honestly the only person I'm sure is dying Cersei. I even go back and forth on Jaime. Come on now, you know that we need some deaths especially during a war. We might not want to lose our favorites, but characters gotta die.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 11:57:37 GMT -5
well its the fact that this villain is cersei. i don't feel this way about euron or felt that way about ramsay,walder frey etc. i just think season 7 should be used to predict season 8 since its essentially part 1 of season 8. and IMO if D&D weren't willing to kill more important characters than LF in season 7 to lessen the impact of his death then i think they're likely to follow the same lead for season 8. for season 8, other important character deaths that i can see happening are melisandre, theon/yara or both, davos possibly, sandor. all important characters that have been present on the show whose deaths would definitely incite emotion from the audience but neither of these will overshadow or take away impact from cersei (and possibly jaime's) death Okay, let's get this Season 8 Death List going. I agree with you on Melisandre and Sandor. I don't think that both Theor and Yara will die, It'll be one of them. High Probability 1. Melisandre 2. Sandor 3. Tormond 4. Bron 5. Jorah 6. Yara Average Probability1. Jon 2. Dany 3. Davos 4. Pod 5. Gendry 6. Gilly's baby (a sacrifice?) 7. Theon 8. Edd Low Probability
1. Brienne 2. Sam 3. Gilly 4. Varys 5. Meera Actually, I would agree with this. Except I would put Gendry in the low probability section because he is the last Baratheon. And I would put Yara in the middle section with Theon, because I think Theon might still save her.
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Post by belle on May 17, 2017 12:07:43 GMT -5
well its the fact that this villain is cersei. i don't feel this way about euron or felt that way about ramsay,walder frey etc. i just think season 7 should be used to predict season 8 since its essentially part 1 of season 8. and IMO if D&D weren't willing to kill more important characters than LF in season 7 to lessen the impact of his death then i think they're likely to follow the same lead for season 8. for season 8, other important character deaths that i can see happening are melisandre, theon/yara or both, davos possibly, sandor. all important characters that have been present on the show whose deaths would definitely incite emotion from the audience but neither of these will overshadow or take away impact from cersei (and possibly jaime's) death Well, you just assume that that's what happened in S7. That they didn't kill any more important characters in S7 in order not to lessen the impact of LF's death. I don't believe this is necessarily true. They just didn't kill anymore characters, because they were not there yet with the plot. It's just coincidential. I mean there have been seasons where a lot of characters died (S3, S4 and S6); often multiple deaths in the same episode or even in the same scene and then we have S2 where basically no one important died (I loved Renly but I don't consider him important). So I don't think that that argument works. They never had a problem with showing major characters die in the same season. However, I agree with your suggestions. Melisandre, Theon, Yara, Davos, Sandor are all strong possibilities. Looking at moiaf 's list, I think there are even more (Bronn maybe?). while that DEFINITELY has a lot to with it.... since D&D are now writing their own scripts instead of relying on the books. i definitely think they're putting a lot of thought into the climaxes of each season and how to best heighten it and make it dramatic. with seasons 3 and 4, D&D were following the books and GRRM himself carefully set up all the various climaxes in a way that they're all very dramatic. but STILL D&D did split seasons 3 and 4 and decided to push back joffrey's death to season 4. when if D&D had wanted they could have easily structured season 3 in a way that the red wedding and the purple wedding BOTH happen in season 3. instead they made the climax of season 3 be the red wedding and then we had to wait an entire year to see the purple wedding. i definitely think that D&D did that purposefully so the audience would get a lot of time to mourn robb and cat , before they give catharsis for their those deaths by killing off joffrey. and then with seasons 5, and 6...while deaths like stannis, shireen, marge, tommen, hodor were important. there was a lot of sufficient build up to these deaths and neither of these characters are all that much hugely important in the same vein than cersei, jon and dany are imo. like i really don't think that myrcella dying in the season 5 finale took away any impact from stannis' death because myrcella is barely a character on her own individual merit. and i consider ramsay to be the same level of importance as characters like margaery and the high sparrow. so having those deaths back to back worked just fine imo. i dont think this is the case with jon, dany and cersei. i don't think killing off cersei in season 8 episode 4 or 5 and then killing jon or dany or both off in episode 6 would work like it did with ramsay in ep 9 and high sparrow/marge in ep 10 imo
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 17, 2017 12:08:33 GMT -5
Honestly the only person I'm sure is dying Cersei. I even go back and forth on Jaime. Come on now, you know that we need some deaths especially during a war. We might not want to lose our favorites, but characters gotta die. oh I def know there will be a lot more than that, but idk who. I guess I worded that badly. Cersei's the only person I'm pretty positive will die. I can't predict who else at the moment. I think Tyrion could die by Cersei's doing. Their rivalry has been a huge thing, and the show has made a point that "Cersei always gets what she wants, sooner or later." Idk I doubt it tho.
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Post by Envie on May 17, 2017 12:24:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry I missed this great debate, one of the better ones we've had recently with the boredom and long wait for Season 7! Kudos to all of you in this as it's given me a lot more to think about. I'm still really uncertain about Jon and Dany in this equation. As for Cersei, I really don't consider her a true 'villain' anymore in the same sense I would the Mountain, or Ramsay, or Joffrey. They've spent so much time building up her amazing complexities it's difficult to categorize her there entirely. She has a huge fan following now and her death is going to be really impactful so I agree with belle they won't want to put that too close to another major character's death IMO. If she's truly going to survive until Season 8... then either Jon/Dany don't die or Cersei survives. I think one or the other, probably not all three of them die or two die leaving one. They are the three main pivotal points of the triangle in this story.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 12:28:46 GMT -5
Well, you just assume that that's what happened in S7. That they didn't kill any more important characters in S7 in order not to lessen the impact of LF's death. I don't believe this is necessarily true. They just didn't kill anymore characters, because they were not there yet with the plot. It's just coincidential. I mean there have been seasons where a lot of characters died (S3, S4 and S6); often multiple deaths in the same episode or even in the same scene and then we have S2 where basically no one important died (I loved Renly but I don't consider him important). So I don't think that that argument works. They never had a problem with showing major characters die in the same season. However, I agree with your suggestions. Melisandre, Theon, Yara, Davos, Sandor are all strong possibilities. Looking at moiaf 's list, I think there are even more (Bronn maybe?). while that DEFINITELY has a lot to with it.... since D&D are now writing their own scripts instead of relying on the books. i definitely think they're putting a lot of thought into the climaxes of each season and how to best heighten it and make it dramatic. with seasons 3 and 4, D&D were following the books and GRRM himself carefully set up all the various climaxes in a way that they're all very dramatic. but STILL D&D did split seasons 3 and 4 and decided to push back joffrey's death to season 4. when if D&D had wanted they could have easily structured season 3 in a way that the red wedding and the purple wedding BOTH happen in season 3. instead they made the climax of season 3 be the red wedding and then we had to wait an entire year to see the purple wedding. i definitely think that D&D did that purposefully so the audience would get a lot of time to mourn robb and cat , before they give catharsis for their those deaths by killing off joffrey. and then with seasons 5, and 6...while deaths like stannis, shireen, marge, tommen, hodor were important. there was a lot of sufficient build up to these deaths and neither of these characters are all that much hugely important in the same vein than cersei, jon and dany are imo. like i really don't think that myrcella dying in the season 5 finale took away any impact from stannis' death because myrcella is barely a character on her own individual merit. and i consider ramsay to be the same level of importance as characters like margaery and the high sparrow. so having those deaths back to back worked just fine imo. i dont think this is the case with jon, dany and cersei. i don't think killing off cersei in season 8 episode 4 or 5 and then killing jon or dany or both off in episode 6 would work like it did with ramsay in ep 9 and high sparrow/marge in ep 10 imo You make some good points and I don't disagree with them but then again we have to keep in mind that this IS the final season and therefore an entirely unique situation. It also really depends on how their deaths would be done. Dany or Jon sacrificing themselves is a very different thing from Catelyn and Robb dying gruesome deaths at the RW. However, it is very well possible that Cersei is the only major character to die. She is literally the only character that I'm a 100% sure of.
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