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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 15, 2017 8:16:02 GMT -5
With this line let me clarify that as much as I defend and enjoy GoT, I'd rewrite every goddamn line in the show. And in most things. I seldom bring up my quibbles with the dialogue because it would take me into very stringent, snobby and thus alienating territory. But I'd edit the fuck out of the dialogue. And, in the case of the books, the prose. But then there are very few shows in which I love the dialogue and even fewer books in which I at all respect the prose. But such is life. Haha yeah I bet all of us like to think we could do better with certain aspects of the writing. It's the nature of being overanalytical fucks with certain aspirations. For example I'd scrap every line that had any pretensions to being meta because this is a delicate fantasy world goddammit. None of this still rowing bollocks. Your example shows how different tastes can lead to vastly different conclusions. With respect to that example, the audience falls into three categories. The first -- by far the biggest -- are viewers who do not catch the "meta" at all and for them, the line means nothing. It just comes across as a snarky comment from Davos. The other two categories know what the meta is about -- but the separation is that some agree with you and hate such "meta" comments and others enjoy the "meta" comments. Unfortunately for you, I strongly suspect that the latter group is the larger of the two (and certainly the producers seem to think so). So when personal taste conflict with the taste of the producers and a larger group of viewers who disagree, you have to suffer with elements you would prefer to be different. Such is the nature of any "piece of art" -- from the most sophisticated to the most mundane.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 8:24:28 GMT -5
E5 has 9.1 on IMDB after more than 12 000 votes. Reaction to this episode was better than I expected. I was afraid we will ger another controversal episode like No one.
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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2017 8:32:50 GMT -5
The other two categories know what the meta is about -- but the separation is that some agree with you and hate such "meta" comments and others enjoy the "meta" comments. Unfortunately for you, I strongly suspect that the latter group is the larger of the two (and certainly the producers seem to think so). This follows nicely on what I just commented on from watching youtube reviewers and reaction videos for me in seeing how vastly different people all over the world are in how they see and interpret the show. You're absolutely correct that a majority of viewers enjoy the meta comments such as Gendry still rowing. They're watching the show for the entertainment as much as they're watching it for the deep storyline so I'm glad the show writers do understand that and are addressing both kinds of fans of the show and the books both.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 8:37:10 GMT -5
I remember last year we got slower and character oriened episodes (E6-E8) and people complained that those were filler episodes, that great scenes at Horn Hill and Riverrun were just filler and those episodes had the lowest ratings on IMDB last year.
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Post by jared on Aug 15, 2017 9:16:36 GMT -5
"Eastwatch" hit another series high in Live+SD viewership. 10.72 million viewers, 5.0 in the key demo. As ever, that's just American audiences on watching via linear cable outlets on the same night. www.spoilertv.com/2017/08/final-adjusted-tv-ratings-for-saturday_15.htmlIf enough of those people watched the promo for next week's episode, I expect that that this record will only stand for a week before it's broken again ...
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 9:28:58 GMT -5
"Eastwatch" hit another series high in Live+SD viewership. 10.72 million viewers, 5.0 in the key demo. As ever, that's just American audiences on watching via linear cable outlets on the same night. www.spoilertv.com/2017/08/final-adjusted-tv-ratings-for-saturday_15.htmlIf enough of those people watched the promo for next week's episode, I expect that that this record will only stand for a week before it's broken again ...
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Post by jared on Aug 15, 2017 9:55:13 GMT -5
I remember last year we got slower and character oriened episodes (E6-E8) and people complained that those were filler episodes, that great scenes at Horn Hill and Riverrun were just filler and those episodes had the lowest ratings on IMDB last year. The vast majority of the time, I love that so many people watch Game of Thrones on a weekly basis, and that the conversation about the most recent episode continues throughout the week. It's one of the things that makes each season so vibrant and so fun, and one of the main reasons that the show has become such a phenomenon. But the one of the downsides to it is that whenever there's a slower or less overtly spectacular episode, a certain cadre of naysayers crops up to whine about the show dragging its heels or, even more obnoxiously and erroneously, "going off the rails" (and don't even get me started on r/asoiaf, which has their own bucket of issues to fry). I remember the stretch of episodes from last season that you're referring to well. It got so annoying that I actually tapped out of the conversation for a week between E7 and E8 (although that was also because I needed a break from all the wildly nonsensical Arya conspiracy theories that were floating around). Then, "Battle of the Bastards" came around, and everyone had to eat their words. Every worthwhile show in television history needs slower, character-based episodes and episodes that move pieces into place for a greater payoff later. Most intelligent viewers understand this. But one of the burdens that comes with being the biggest show in the world with a reputation for incredibly dramatic and stunning moments is that some people expect fireworks every single damn week, and those people are usually freaking goldfish. You take away their shiny action sequences for an episode or two, and they forget that they ever existed, or that they'll ever come back. This is a problem that Better Call Saul - a great, very slow-paced show that I love but which draws one-tenth the media coverage that GOT does at best - does not have, mostly because the audience is more self-selecting. People who can't handle a slower episode or two on those shows don't flee to the Internet to vent - they just stop watching altogether. It's a blessing and a curse. There's a laughably horrible review on io9 this week in which the reviewer, who has been mostly positive on the season (albeit with a few eye-rolling nitpicks, mostly related to pace and travel) and who loved last week's episode, has suddenly decided that he has major issues with the entire season. Perhaps he'll come crawling back next week, but I won't be reading, because he's outed himself as a fool. But on a more positive note ... I must say that I've been extremely pleased with the reception that this episode has received in general. As ever, it's usually the loudest and the dumbest outlying voices that draw the most attention, while the more measured, carefully-considered opinions that more closely reflect the consensus hold their level.
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Post by breakfest on Aug 15, 2017 14:31:12 GMT -5
Haha yeah I bet all of us like to think we could do better with certain aspects of the writing. It's the nature of being overanalytical fucks with certain aspirations. For example I'd scrap every line that had any pretensions to being meta because this is a delicate fantasy world goddammit. None of this still rowing bollocks. Your example shows how different tastes can lead to vastly different conclusions. With respect to that example, the audience falls into three categories. The first -- by far the biggest -- are viewers who do not catch the "meta" at all and for them, the line means nothing. It just comes across as a snarky comment from Davos. The other two categories know what the meta is about -- but the separation is that some agree with you and hate such "meta" comments and others enjoy the "meta" comments. Unfortunately for you, I strongly suspect that the latter group is the larger of the two (and certainly the producers seem to think so). So when personal taste conflict with the taste of the producers and a larger group of viewers who disagree, you have to suffer with elements you would prefer to be different. Such is the nature of any "piece of art" -- from the most sophisticated to the most mundane. Oh sure, I'm well aware my opinion is a minority, and makes me a boring dick. I'm not against meta storytelling, it's just that if I was the writer of this particular story I would avoid at all costs. It only makes me aware I'm watching a TV show, which I don't think suits the immersive world of the show. There's plenty of ways it can work as a storytelling method, but it's easy to make obnoxious. I don't ever mind it too much in the show, it's usually just a nudge and a wink. It's actually interesting to note the different ways auteur showrunners approach their craft. D&D claim not to read any message boards, but they're clearly still aware of much of the criticism around the show since they often drop little hints towards this in the text itself. David Chase was actively disparaging of his fans when writing The Sopranos and that had very mixed results. Some of the great shows keep a very fixed distance from their audience - Deadwood comes to mind here. There's no right way of doing things.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 15:03:07 GMT -5
This is how I would write the meeting at Dragonstone. Dany should have asked Jon why she wouldn't just take KL now and Westeros would be united. And the answer could have been that the army of the dead is only 2-3 weeks from Eastwatch, they don’t have time for the siege. And Dany should have said then we should just burn the Red Keep, and Tyrion would say there could be scorpions on the walls now, the Lannisters saw it can hurt a dragon, and that they’re hidden tunnels beneath the city, so when the attack starts Cersei could just hide and they would be forced to burn the whole city in order to find her. (his hidden motive: protect Jaime) And the biggest point Tyrion could make is that they are struggling to make Dany popular in Westeros, but if they call every lord in Westeros at that meeting and they show them what is coming, Dany could be seen as the savior of the world, because she would promise them that will save them from the WW. So it could help her in her ambition to take the Iron Throne. They just needed characters to discuss every option.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 15:04:38 GMT -5
It's actually interesting to note the different ways auteur showrunners approach their craft. D&D claim not to read any message boards, but they're clearly still aware of much of the criticism around the show since they often drop little hints towards this in the text itself. When D&D started the show they were posting on westeros.org. LOL
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 15, 2017 15:08:34 GMT -5
It's actually interesting to note the different ways auteur showrunners approach their craft. D&D claim not to read any message boards, but they're clearly still aware of much of the criticism around the show since they often drop little hints towards this in the text itself. When D&D started the show they were posting on westeros.org. LOL So was Lena, she was very sweet.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 15:12:38 GMT -5
It's actually interesting to note the different ways auteur showrunners approach their craft. D&D claim not to read any message boards, but they're clearly still aware of much of the criticism around the show since they often drop little hints towards this in the text itself. When D&D started the show they were posting on westeros.org. LOL How things have changed. Last week Cogman deleted his twitter.
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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2017 15:13:53 GMT -5
So not many of us in our group are talking about the "Prince Ragger" annulment reveal in this episode, but having watched at least a dozen or so of my favorite reaction videos, I can confirm this reveal was almost 100% across the board not only unerstood by the average watchers but met with quite a LOT of excitement. I know a lot of us wondered if the GA fully understood the implications of the Tower of Joy scene last season and that fans not all understood what that meant about who Jon's Father is/was. I'm happy to say that most do 'get it' and are quite excited to find out Jon Snow is a legitimate Targaryen.
Here's my favorite reaction to that reveal, Sierra Dee who is always on the ball with her reactions and expains everything exactly to her husband (haha) and they play off of one another quite well in their reactions and review of the story as it plays out. Here's her reaction with quite a lot of emphasis on the fact that Jon is legitimate heir to the throne:
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 15, 2017 15:17:13 GMT -5
When D&D started the show they were posting on westeros.org. LOL So was Lena, she was very sweet. i don't think that was actually her TBH
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 15:18:52 GMT -5
When D&D started the show they were posting on westeros.org. LOL How things have changed. Last week Cogman deleted his twitter. Yeah, D&D had far more interviews earlier, they and Cogman were more open to fans and question. I just think after years of insults and nonsense from vocal minority, they said fuck them, we won't speak any more. It's a shame really. I was always interested in their creative process. I would like to hear about every creative decision that they've made, about every plan and other options they've considered.
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