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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 15:19:39 GMT -5
I love how majority here are just refugees from westeros.org That place is so empty now.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 15:21:39 GMT -5
How things have changed. Last week Cogman deleted his twitter. Yeah, D&D had far more interviews earlier, they and Cogman were more open to fans and question. I just think after years of insults and nonsense from vocal minority, they said fuck them, we won't speak any more. It's a shame really. I was always interested in their creative process. I would like to hear about every creative decision that they've made, about every plan and other options they've considered. There were whole twitter accounts dedicated to harassing Cogman, so I'm surprised he didn't leave sooner. How anyone can stand that site and its constant shit-stirring and mob mentality, I've never known. I only ever use it to find info, I'd never get an account there.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 15:22:52 GMT -5
twitter account dedicated to harassing Cogman? Really?? Who?
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 15:38:46 GMT -5
The only thing that really pisses me off is the rushed character interactions. We had Tyrion, Jaime and Bronn in the same room and Tyrion's entire conversation with Jaime was offscreen, and not a single word was exchanged between Tyrion and Bronn. We could've had a fantastic 10 min long scene between the three of them, but no let's put aside the very thing that made GoT so great for the sake of moving the plot forward. What a waste. Same thing with Jon, Jorah and Gendry, but not as bad as that one. They must've spent at least a week on the sea travelling to the Wall, plenty of oportunities for some interactions. Gendry had so much to talk to Jon about Arya and Jon had a lot to discuss with Jorah about Jeor, Lyanna and his sword. Hopefully we're getting something next episode, but they just spent several days together without having a single conversation. I'm okay with ignoring travel scenes between characters that are familiar with each other, but they shouldn't have done that when it's a bunch of people who never interacted before travelling together. A year ago, when we got the news, I loathed this fucking decision of making the final two seasons so much shorter, and now I hate it even more, absolutely terrible decision. We could have easily had this season properly spread out through ten episodes and most of its problems would've gone away. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this season thus far, but the character development this year has been really weak, it's been put aside to make room for the plot to move forward. That's the main reason why this season won't top season 4 as my favorite, no matter how good the next two episodes turn out to be, and it's all because of D&D's decision to wrap it up as fast as possible, just as I feared. You are completely ignoring that it take them longer to shoot this season than any other before. 10 episodes would probably mean no season at all this year. I really wouldn't mind waiting a little longer.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 15, 2017 15:42:14 GMT -5
Your example shows how different tastes can lead to vastly different conclusions. With respect to that example, the audience falls into three categories. The first -- by far the biggest -- are viewers who do not catch the "meta" at all and for them, the line means nothing. It just comes across as a snarky comment from Davos. The other two categories know what the meta is about -- but the separation is that some agree with you and hate such "meta" comments and others enjoy the "meta" comments. Unfortunately for you, I strongly suspect that the latter group is the larger of the two (and certainly the producers seem to think so). So when personal taste conflict with the taste of the producers and a larger group of viewers who disagree, you have to suffer with elements you would prefer to be different. Such is the nature of any "piece of art" -- from the most sophisticated to the most mundane. Oh sure, I 'm well aware my opinion is a minority, and makes me a boring dick. I'm not against meta storytelling, it's just that if I was the writer of this particular story I would avoid at all costs. It only makes me aware I'm watching a TV show, which I don't think suits the immersive world of the show. There's plenty of ways it can work as a storytelling method, but it's easy to make obnoxious. I don't ever mind it too much in the show, it's usually just a nudge and a wink. It's actually interesting to note the different ways auteur showrunners approach their craft. D&D claim not to read any message boards, but they're clearly still aware of much of the criticism around the show since they often drop little hints towards this in the text itself. David Chase was actively disparaging of his fans when writing The Sopranos and that had very mixed results. Some of the great shows keep a very fixed distance from their audience - Deadwood comes to mind here. There's no right way of doing things. Being in the minority does not make you a boring dick. I have many minority opinions that I express with pride. I just try to be realistic when my opinion is a minority and understand the consequences. But the show is IMHO taking a cop-out position of having an annulment and new marriage -- making Jon's claim over Dany virtually indisputable. In the books, the issue will be much more complicated -- I suspect. The books seem to be headed in the direction of polygamy rather than annulment. In addition WoIaF indicated naming Viserys as Aerys's heir after Rhaegar's death -- which I doubt the show will include. So on the show, Jon's claim being stronger than Dany's is pretty much unassailable. While in the books, arguments about whether the marriage is legit or whether Viserys trumped Jon due to the heir-naming -- and Dany then became Viserys's heir -- are complicating issues that might be explored. I believe that Jon would still have the strong claim based on Targ history (including prior polygamy, the acceptance of Targ incest even though not accepted otherwise by the Faith while incest is worse to the Faith than polygamy and the denial of acceptance of other King's naming out of order, such as DoD 1.0). But even if the arguments in favor of Jon are the better arguments -- the existence of potential counter-arguments in favor of Dany could make the situation more interesting. The show seems to have chosen to ignore those complications and make Jon the Super Duper legit virtually unambiguous heir of the Targ Dynasty over Dany (based on the very arguments that Dany has been making -- turning those very arguments into arguments that favor Jon over her).
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Post by Envie on Aug 15, 2017 16:09:41 GMT -5
But the show is IMHO taking a cop-out position of having an annulment and new marriage -- making Jon's claim over Dany virtually indisputable. In the books, the issue will be much more complicated -- I suspect. The books seem to be headed in the direction of polygamy rather than annulment. In addition WoIaF indicated naming Viserys as Aerys's heir after Rhaegar's death -- which I doubt the show will include. So on the show, Jon's claim being stronger than Dany's is pretty much unassailable. While in the books, arguments about whether the marriage is legit or whether Viserys trumped Jon due to the heir-naming -- and Dany then became Viserys's heir -- are complicating issues that might be explored. I believe that Jon would still have the strong claim based on Targ history (including prior polygamy, the acceptance of Targ incest even though not accepted otherwise by the Faith while incest is worse to the Faith than polygamy and the denial of acceptance of other King's naming out of order, such as DoD 1.0). But even if the arguments in favor of Jon are the better arguments -- the existence of potential counter-arguments in favor of Dany could make the situation more interesting. The show seems to have chosen to ignore those complications and make Jon the Super Duper legit virtually unambiguous heir of the Targ Dynasty over Dany (based on the very arguments that Dany has been making -- turning those very arguments into arguments that favor Jon over her). While the general fans do get it that Jon's a legitimate Targaryen, I don't think most of them are really trying to analyze if his 'claim' (if he even wanted to) is more valid than Dany's. To be honest, I don't really care about the claims to the throne at this point of the story regardless of how Jon is legitimate whether that was an annulment or polygamous marriage either one. The point is, there IS no point. The throne has been taken and won by different people willing to take it. Jaime Lannister could have taken the throne after he killed Aerys Targaryen. Ned Stark could have taken it before Robert showed up. Those points were given quite early on and now Cersei has reinforced that point yet again. Whoever is there and willing to overthrow who is on it, gets it. But Jon Snow/Targaryen doesn't want the Iron Throne. That's the beauty of the reveal. He's probably the one with the greatest claim (if they were going by most conventional succession) but he wants it the least. I think if things were different and Jon found out he had a greater or equal claim to the throne than Dany, he'd willingly give it to her. He's far too northerner to care about King's Landing. He'd only take it if there wasn't anyone else and he had to. Jon Targaryen the Reluctant. I'm just happy to see a majority of the fans I like to follow outside of our group here actually pieced it together immediately what that anullment bit from Archmaester Maynard's journal meant. I don't care who has the rightful claim to the throne because I'm hoping in the end there IS no throne. At least not that one.
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Post by Dany's Golden Fleece on Aug 15, 2017 16:24:03 GMT -5
I love how majority here are just refugees from westeros.org That place is so empty now. Why was there an exodus of Westeros.org in the first place? I was taking a hiatus from it and then MOIAF sent me an e-mail telling me about this place lol. So im clueless really.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 16:24:52 GMT -5
You are completely ignoring that it take them longer to shoot this season than any other before. 10 episodes would probably mean no season at all this year. I really wouldn't mind waiting a little longer. I would, but the wait makes no sense IMO. They started filming later because they needed the weather to be cold. Well, doesn't seem like it's cold. The snow in 7x01 was fake. There is enough snow in Iceland in early winter for the Beyond the Wall scenes too. They could've easily started filming earlier and also had 10 episodes instead of 7.
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Post by Dany's Golden Fleece on Aug 15, 2017 16:29:31 GMT -5
I remember last year we got slower and character oriened episodes (E6-E8) and people complained that those were filler episodes, that great scenes at Horn Hill and Riverrun were just filler and those episodes had the lowest ratings on IMDB last year. The vast majority of the time, I love that so many people watch Game of Thrones on a weekly basis, and that the conversation about the most recent episode continues throughout the week. It's one of the things that makes each season so vibrant and so fun, and one of the main reasons that the show has become such a phenomenon. But the one of the downsides to it is that whenever there's a slower or less overtly spectacular episode, a certain cadre of naysayers crops up to whine about the show dragging its heels or, even more obnoxiously and erroneously, "going off the rails" (and don't even get me started on r/asoiaf, which has their own bucket of issues to fry). I remember the stretch of episodes from last season that you're referring to well. It got so annoying that I actually tapped out of the conversation for a week between E7 and E8 (although that was also because I needed a break from all the wildly nonsensical Arya conspiracy theories that were floating around). Then, "Battle of the Bastards" came around, and everyone had to eat their words. Every worthwhile show in television history needs slower, character-based episodes and episodes that move pieces into place for a greater payoff later. Most intelligent viewers understand this. But one of the burdens that comes with being the biggest show in the world with a reputation for incredibly dramatic and stunning moments is that some people expect fireworks every single damn week, and those people are usually freaking goldfish. You take away their shiny action sequences for an episode or two, and they forget that they ever existed, or that they'll ever come back. This is a problem that Better Call Saul - a great, very slow-paced show that I love but which draws one-tenth the media coverage that GOT does at best - does not have, mostly because the audience is more self-selecting. People who can't handle a slower episode or two on those shows don't flee to the Internet to vent - they just stop watching altogether. It's a blessing and a curse. There's a laughably horrible review on io9 this week in which the reviewer, who has been mostly positive on the season (albeit with a few eye-rolling nitpicks, mostly related to pace and travel) and who loved last week's episode, has suddenly decided that he has major issues with the entire season. Perhaps he'll come crawling back next week, but I won't be reading, because he's outed himself as a fool. But on a more positive note ... I must say that I've been extremely pleased with the reception that this episode has received in general. As ever, it's usually the loudest and the dumbest outlying voices that draw the most attention, while the more measured, carefully-considered opinions that more closely reflect the consensus hold their level. I was watching a programme on Sky Sports about American Football, Tampa Bay and their pre-season preparation for the season. At the end the credits pop up and show us scenes for next week. I kid you not, the players, the staff, their families were all discussing season 7 episode 3 of Game of Thrones and joking about it, theories etc. It really has hit everyone this show. I can't remember anything like it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 16:30:41 GMT -5
Please stay on topic. Other sites and parts of the fandom should not be the focus of discussion. Thank you.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 15, 2017 16:30:42 GMT -5
But the show is IMHO taking a cop-out position of having an annulment and new marriage -- making Jon's claim over Dany virtually indisputable. In the books, the issue will be much more complicated -- I suspect. The books seem to be headed in the direction of polygamy rather than annulment. In addition WoIaF indicated naming Viserys as Aerys's heir after Rhaegar's death -- which I doubt the show will include. So on the show, Jon's claim being stronger than Dany's is pretty much unassailable. While in the books, arguments about whether the marriage is legit or whether Viserys trumped Jon due to the heir-naming -- and Dany then became Viserys's heir -- are complicating issues that might be explored. I believe that Jon would still have the strong claim based on Targ history (including prior polygamy, the acceptance of Targ incest even though not accepted otherwise by the Faith while incest is worse to the Faith than polygamy and the denial of acceptance of other King's naming out of order, such as DoD 1.0). But even if the arguments in favor of Jon are the better arguments -- the existence of potential counter-arguments in favor of Dany could make the situation more interesting. The show seems to have chosen to ignore those complications and make Jon the Super Duper legit virtually unambiguous heir of the Targ Dynasty over Dany (based on the very arguments that Dany has been making -- turning those very arguments into arguments that favor Jon over her). While the general fans do get it that Jon's a legitimate Targaryen, I don't think most of them are really trying to analyze if his 'claim' (if he even wanted to) is more valid than Dany's. To be honest, I don't really care about the claims to the throne at this point of the story regardless of how Jon is legitimate whether that was an annulment or polygamous marriage either one. The point is, there IS no point. The throne has been taken and won by different people willing to take it. Jaime Lannister could have taken the throne after he killed Aerys Targaryen. Ned Stark could have taken it before Robert showed up. Those points were given quite early on and now Cersei has reinforced that point yet again. Whoever is there and willing to overthrow who is on it, gets it. But Jon Snow/Targaryen doesn't want the Iron Throne. That's the beauty of the reveal. He's probably the one with the greatest claim (if they were going by most conventional succession) but he wants it the least. I think if things were different and Jon found out he had a greater or equal claim to the throne than Dany, he'd willingly give it to her. He's far too northerner to care about King's Landing. He'd only take it if there wasn't anyone else and he had to. Jon Targaryen the Reluctant. I'm just happy to see a majority of the fans I like to follow outside of our group here actually pieced it together immediately what that anullment bit from Archmaester Maynard's journal meant. I don't care who has the rightful claim to the throne because I'm hoping in the end there IS no throne. At least not that one. It does not matter for who eventually gets the throne. It could matter in the books relating to the interpersonal interactions between Jon and Dany -- with Dany struggling with whether she needs to defer to Jon's claim. By the end, I highly doubt both will be alive, so I really do not think it ever comes into play for who gets the throne (if anyone). But in the show, Dany's choices are more stark (pun not intended). She either has to accept Jon as having the better claim or be a huge hypocrite given all the arguments she has been making regarding her right to the throne (every argument she makes would now apply to Jon over her in terms of blood inheritance and Targ dynasty succession). In the books, Dany can justify (to herself, most importantly) taking a position that she has the better claim. That inner struggle can be interesting in the books. In the show -- not so much so for that reason (and many others, mainly time constraints) the matter will be more clear. So we will see if she just accedes to his superior claim (which he likely will say he does not even want) or try to come up with some strained justification for having a superior claim. So in sum, I am not interested because I want to know who has the better claim. I am interested because it could lead to interesting interaction between Jon and Dany and interesting inner struggles for Dany.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 16:33:13 GMT -5
This episode is getting better and better after every rewatch.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 15, 2017 17:44:18 GMT -5
This episode is getting better and better after every rewatch. Totally. I just finished again, and it is holding up well. I hate my Stark pups not getting along well, but after what each has been through, I'm sure it's only growing pains. Arya playing the game of faces with her sister, watching to see what tells Sansa has, she'd putting her training to use the same as Sansa is putting what she learned in KL to use. Watching the Magnificent 7 walk through the gate out into the storm, each one looking at the other's reactions, quite a moment. Jon is so short
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 18:06:04 GMT -5
I think some people didn't like Sansa and Arya's conversation because it revealed some ugly truths about both of them.
I don't understand why Arya would be bothered by Sansa's letter she sent to Robb/Catelyn. Arya is smart enough to understand this was written by Cersei. How is this meant to put them at odds with each other, i guess the fact that littlefinger said 'lady Stark thanks you'. What a little turd that guy is. Lord Glover is also such a snake. Jon is gone for two seconds and he changes his opinion with only a little prodding from littlefinger. The thing is, Sansa really could have been Queen in the North, Jon didn't want it. But she didn't want to accept the responsibility of it, or was too scared to.... or maybe she's learnt from littlefinger that you can have more influence in the shadows than the spotlight. I think that's Sansa's angle.
Also i think Dany was totally justified in burning the Tarly's. Firstly they betrayed the Tyrells, her allies, (punishable by death in this society) and they are her enemies. As she said, if she kept them in chains that would become an 'option' and she needs army men not 'options'. Although, my criticism of the scene is, she should have said what they were being executed for, and it shouldn't have just been for not 'bending the knee'. I guess she didn't give the Tarly's a good picture of what her ruling would be like, she should have waited a little to execute them, but i guess time was a factor. Also fuck Randyll Tarly, what a hypocrit, "you killed your own father" WELL WHAT A SAINT YOU ARE, YOU WHO WOULD HAVE KILLED HIS OWN SON HAD HE NOT GONE TO THE WALL.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 18:45:49 GMT -5
I think some people didn't like Sansa and Arya's conversation because it revealed some ugly truths about both of them. I don't understand why Arya would be bothered by Sansa's letter she sent to Robb/Catelyn. Arya is smart enough to understand this was written by Cersei. How is this meant to put them at odds with each other, i guess the fact that littlefinger said 'lady Stark thanks you'. What a little turd that guy is. Lord Glover is also such a snake. Jon is gone for two seconds and he changes his opinion with only a little prodding from littlefinger. The thing is, Sansa really could have been Queen in the North, Jon didn't want it. But she didn't want to accept the responsibility of it, or was too scared to.... or maybe she's learnt from littlefinger that you can have more influence in the shadows than the spotlight. I think that's Sansa's angle. Also i think Dany was totally justified in burning the Tarly's. Firstly they betrayed the Tyrells, her allies, (punishable by death in this society) and they are her enemies. As she said, if she kept them in chains that would become an 'option' and she needs army men not 'options'. Although, my criticism of the scene is, she should have said what they were being executed for, and it shouldn't have just been for not 'bending the knee'. I guess she didn't give the Tarly's a good picture of what her ruling would be like, she should have waited a little to execute them, but i guess time was a factor. Also fuck Randyll Tarly, what a hypocrit, "you killed your own father" WELL WHAT A SAINT YOU ARE, YOU WHO WOULD HAVE KILLED HIS OWN SON HAD HE NOT GONE TO THE WALL.I haven't seen this mentioned enough.I felt bad for Dickon, but as far as Randyll goes...good riddance.
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