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Post by day dreamer on Aug 21, 2017 9:25:05 GMT -5
There's something so hilarious about the VFX team telling the showrunners "fuck you, you can't have a zombie polar bear."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 9:32:41 GMT -5
People with the Viserion ranking...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 9:38:30 GMT -5
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 10:27:58 GMT -5
I suspect I will be in the minority on this board - but I did not care for this episode. I had a hard time buying into either of the story lines.
All I could keep thinking about during the the "adventure" beyond the Wall was how absurd it is that this group thought they could go north of the wall and capture a wight. Jon has seen how the WW and the wights move and fight. The mission was truly a Mission Impossible (ignoring that the writers, of course, allowed them to accomplish their mission, for the most part). I just could not buy the remotest of possibilities that Jon would lead a group to attempt this mission when there was virtually no chance of success and they were almost sure to die. I usually overlook troublesome character actions because I recognize the need for certain actions to move the plot forward. But this mission was so obviously absurd and suicidal that I just could not really enjoy the action because I was too distracted by the stupidity of the mission (and I not talking about being bothered by the "time travel" elements because I recognize the need for the characters to move great distances unreasonably quickly and just let that issue go -- but carefully planning out a mission that any reasonable person would think has 0% chance of success and almost 100% chance of death -- for such little benefit -- does not work for me).
And the secondary plot with Sansa and Arya fighting was only marginally better for me. At least the writers made it clear that Arya understood Sansa's reasons for writing the letter -- I give them credit for not relying on the old trope of "misunderstanding" -- but the plausibility of Arya rejecting Sansa's rationale -- after acknowledging that Sansa really had no alternative -- was a little difficult for me to accept. And if next week, they reconcile simply because they realize they were being manipulated by LF, that also will not make much sense. Whether LF was manipulating them or not, Arya's objections to Sansa's actions should not be affected as LF did not make Sansa write the letter. The entire argument just makes Arya seem like she has lost all connection to humanity -- which I suspect will not last so the device is just a manipulative plot element meant to give LF, Sansa and Arya something to do. I could forgive such a device if the action ended up being more entertaining -- but for me, it just was not.
I want to be clear that I have really enjoyed this season -- probably my favorite of the series. I just did not really care for this particular episode. I suspect next week will be more to my liking.
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sercreighton
Silverwing
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 21, 2017 10:39:12 GMT -5
Beautiful episode. The small dialogue parts between the wight hunters in the beginning were great overall, besides Tormund/Sandor Jorah and Jon was my favorite. Thick with foreshadowing, too (you will pass down this sword to your children). Tbh, I thought Jorah wasn't going to make it, and he would sacrifice himself in order to save Jon or Dany. Regarding Arya/Sansa, sercreighton has put everything so well above and better than I ever could, so I'll shut up about that. Viserion's death was heartbreaking, especially the piercing shrieks of his brothers. Agree with day dreamer that he might be killing Rhaegal (or even Drogon?) I don't want people not to talk about her journey, I just feel like it's not over yet and people are acting like her or Arya or both are ruined. The FM arc is over, Sansa's LF arc isn't but she'll sort it out. I'm gonna say shortly, you can see she will be a big focus of the next episode in the promo, and her part looks very internal. At least that's the tone I got. Then you got the Stark family journey as a whole and all those relationships. Sounds stupid but a lot of times I feel like we put a lot of pressure on the characters to be this ideal of what we want or would like to see. It's sort of like they're our kids. They take you through your emotions, one minute you cheer, another moment you might be angry or sad, or sitting there going my child is stupid, I have a stupid child. Anyway for me Sansa's arc comes down to a few things, family, fitting in, and loneliness. Jon always felt like an outsider because he was a bastard but in reality he was overly critical of himself because he fit in really well with the Stark kids and Ned, and the north. Sansa didn't she was the outsider, which is why she was a dreamer. Dreaming of different places in different people because she was lonely. I think this actually why she resented Jon when she was young and him being named King. She kind of touches on this with Arya when she says I know Jon was happy to see me but when he sees you omg. Her feelings drive her to outsiders where she longs for ecceptance. She had moved passed LF and he got a lucky break when she needed his help. What she did she did for her family. But when Jon gets named King it hurt, not because she dislikes Jon but because once again she was not being accepted. She again touches on the idea when she is arguing with Arya, you didn't save the north, and neither did Jon, yet you are questioning my love for my family. That letter represents her as an outsider, she is affraid of the rejection it may cause. She touches on her being married to two of her families enemies. Like it was her fault, it's all about being on the outside looking in. She hates that feeling and that's when she ends up being driven towards people outside the family. Arya views Sansa's insecurity as a rejection of the Starks which is why it enrages her so much because Arya is very Starcentric. Littlefinger plays on that dynamic and Sansa's insecurity. Jon, Arya and Sansa share the same same basic insecurity of rejection, and not fitting in. Which is why when Jon said he wasn't a Stark, Sansa immediately identified and was like fuck them your a Stark to me. I think LF in a sense represents her own insecurity and she is having a problem letting it go even though she knows better. You know who will Brie side with if she sees that lletter? Her and Arya are a lot a like, of course Arya she's so Starky and everyone will think I betrayed my family. You can see her going through the motions. The Starks are together but they have not united yet. It always goes back to what Ned said, you are differnt but you are the same. You need eachother.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 10:46:35 GMT -5
Please tell me this isn't in the episode itself, but on one of the "Making" videos? Also the episode has been out for days, and there's no proper picture of Viserion's death (the spear hitting him) to be found?
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jared
Rhaegal
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear ..."
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Post by jared on Aug 21, 2017 10:58:04 GMT -5
Well, seeing how good this episode was received with GA and how controversial it is among the hard core book fans, I think this may be the final partition of the fandom. There were controversial episodes in the past, but I don’t remember such a different reaction between two parts of the fandom. Mostly they think the same. Maybe “The Children” was similar? Book fans hated it and for majority that was the best E10 this show ever had. Well, maybe this was inevitable, D&D were never writers book super fans wanted. They always had completely different priorities when it seem to this story. Now, that is clear. What that means for the future of this fandom? Only more negativity I think. D&D are not writing the story they want, and GRRM is not writing at all. That frustration makes everything toxic. It's gratifying to see that the episode is being received positively by the general audience. Admittedly, the IMDB score isn't truly a representative sample, but it's holding strong at a 9.6 after 17,000+ votes there. And most of the comments that I read on places like the EW recap were focused on things like how devastated they were when the dragon died, rather than bullshit like the travel logistics and "where did the wights get the chains?", which is fast becoming a litmus test as to whose opinion I should value. I've mostly tuned the hardcore book readers out on a similar basis - there are certain key phrases that have become common parlance, and anytime someone says anything along the lines of "the writing hasn't been good since Season 4", I know what they're really on about. Unfortunately, the place where I've spent most of my time viewing reactions is Twitter, which is where all of the worst takes live. It's nigh-impossible to be nuanced in 140 characters, and snarkiness is the currency of the realm there, with everyone trying to prove their bona fides by making what they think is cutting and original commentary. Alas, they're all making the same five or six "jokes", and shit gets old real quick. There's plenty of love there for the episode as well (Leslie Jones's live-tweeting made me smile), but it's an unpleasant stew to sift through. As much as I love it when the show is in season and we have new episodes to discuss, there comes a time every single year when a vocal section of the fandom (usually, if not always, of the book reading variety) starts to poison me on the rest. I'm not quite there yet, but I think I'm about to hit that point this week. Heading into the offseason after the finale will almost be a relief. YouTube has always been a wretched hive of scum and villainy. I don't view their reactions as being representative of shit. Half of them are trolls, and most reasonable people don't participate there, because it's far from an ideal forum for intelligent conversation. Everyone just whinges, bitches at each other, or throws out inane questions like "Am I the only one who thought ..." Stop there. No, no you are not. You're just seeking empty validation, and you're not fooling anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 11:01:16 GMT -5
Please tell me this isn't in the episode itself, but on one of the "Making" videos? Yeah it's from the Frozen Lake one. I just found it odd that Dormer was right behind his stunt double while they were filming. Even if he's not in the actual shot, it's still weird that he's on set and not somewhere behind the scenes. Either that or there's a Beric wannabe in the Brotherhood.
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Rhaegal
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Post by jared on Aug 21, 2017 11:02:47 GMT -5
Please tell me this isn't in the episode itself, but on one of the "Making" videos? Also the episode has been out for days, and there's no proper picture of Viserion's death (the spear hitting him) to be found? I only saw it in the Making Of video. I've watched the episode five times since Tuesday, and I never saw two dudes wielding flaming swords on the island. That seems like something that the production would have noticed. I'll look and see if I can spot it in the episode itself when I watch it again, but I'm pretty sure that this particular shot is just BTS footage capturing Richard Dormer and his stunt double working side by side.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 11:05:46 GMT -5
YouTube has always been a wretched hive of scum and villainy. I don't view their reactions as being representative of shit. Half of them are trolls, and most reasonable people don't participate there, because it's far from an ideal forum for intelligent conversation. Everyone just whinges, bitches at each other, or throws out inane questions like "Am I the only one who thought ..." Stop there. No, no you are not. Yeah, Youtube comments are the same for every fandom; the absolute worst place to go for any kind of smart analysis.
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dragonsnow
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Post by dragonsnow on Aug 21, 2017 11:17:16 GMT -5
I suspect I will be in the minority on this board - but I did not care for this episode. I had a hard time buying into either of the story lines. I agree with you. The episode had some cool action but the writing was just pitiful. No chance that mission would work. Benjen's last minute rescue of Jon was cheesy and then Benjen dies. What a waste. Jon barely got to talk to him. I don't understand what they are doing with Arya. Did she actually threaten to kill Sansa?
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 11:22:43 GMT -5
Well, seeing how good this episode was received with GA and how controversial it is among the hard core book fans, I think this may be the final partition of the fandom. There were controversial episodes in the past, but I don’t remember such a different reaction between two parts of the fandom. Mostly they think the same. Maybe “The Children” was similar? Book fans hated it and for majority that was the best E10 this show ever had. Well, maybe this was inevitable, D&D were never writers book super fans wanted. They always had completely different priorities when it seem to this story. Now, that is clear. What that means for the future of this fandom? Only more negativity I think. D&D are not writing the story they want, and GRRM is not writing at all. That frustration makes everything toxic. It's gratifying to see that the episode is being received positively by the general audience. Admittedly, the IMDB score isn't truly a representative sample, but it's holding strong at a 9.7 after 15,000+ votes there. And most of the comments that I read on places like the EW recap were focused on things like how devastated they were when the dragon died, rather than bullshit like the travel logistics and "where did the wights get the chains?", which is fast becoming a litmus test as to whose opinion I should value. I've mostly tuned the hardcore book readers out on a similar basis - there are certain key phrases that have become common parlance, and anytime someone says anything along the lines of "the writing hasn't been good since Season 4", I know what they're really on about. Unfortunately, the place where I've spent most of my time viewing reactions is Twitter, which is where all of the worst takes live. It's nigh-impossible to be nuanced in 140 characters, and snarkiness is the currency of the realm there, with everyone trying to prove their bona fides by making what they think is cutting and original commentary. Alas, they're all making the same five or six "jokes", and shit gets old real quick. There's plenty of love there for the episode as well (Leslie Jones's live-tweeting made me smile), but it's an unpleasant stew to sift through. As much as I love it when the show is in season and we have new episodes to discuss, there comes a time every single year when a vocal section of the fandom (usually, if not always, of the book reading variety) starts to poison me on the rest. I'm not quite there yet, but I think I'm about to hit that point this week. Heading into the offseason after the finale will almost be a relief. YouTube has always been a wretched hive of scum and villainy. I don't view their reactions as being representative of shit. Half of them are trolls, and most reasonable people don't participate there, because it's far from an ideal forum for intelligent conversation. Everyone just whinges, bitches at each other, or throws out inane questions like "Am I the only one who thought ..." Stop there. No, no you are not. You're just seeking empty validation, and you're not fooling anyone. As I noted above, I did not really care for the episode -- and not for any of the bolded reasons you indicated. I don't worry about travel logistics or questions like where the chains came from (all sorts of potentially plausible answers to that question -- who cares?). And I have liked this season very much other than this past episode -- so not objecting to the writing since S4. My objection is simply that watching them go beyond the wall emphasized in my mind how absurd it would be for Jon to think that this mission made any sense at all or that the risks were justified by the potential benefits. There simply was no reasonable possibility of success -- none -- not a chance at all. They thought through the pros and cons -- and after great deliberation -- decided to go on a suicide mission with essentially no reasonable chance of success for speculative benefit. The potential benefit simply is not great enough to justify the virtually zero chance the mission had of success. And Jon would have known this as he has seen the WW and wights in action before -- why would anyone go on a suicide mission? Oh, and if Jon thought that he might call on Dany and the dragons for a rescue -- then why not have them prepared in a more strategic location to do that (not getting into travel time issues -- just basic mission planning logistics). I try to overlook lack of logic and implausible behavior because the plot has to be moved forward somehow. But the intense lack of any basic rationale to justify this mission just kept getting into my head and distracting me from what was happening on screen.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 11:30:58 GMT -5
I suspect I will be in the minority on this board - but I did not care for this episode. I had a hard time buying into either of the story lines. I agree with you. The episode had some cool action but the writing was just pitiful. No chance that mission would work. Benjen's last minute rescue of Jon was cheesy and then Benjen dies. What a waste. Jon barely got to talk to him. I don't understand what they are doing with Arya. Did she actually threaten to kill Sansa? The Benjen element did not bother me. Some have theorized that Bran sent Benjen to save Jon, which is plausible -- and given the situation they really did not have much time to talk. So the ramp up the tension of Jon seeming like he had no chance and then have another "last minute save" -- I am ok with it. Developments like Benjen coming in and saving Jon after all seemed to be lost is more or less consistent with the tone and logic of the show generally. I agree with the rest of what you said, however, as the cool action did not make the plot holes justified. And I would not blame the "writing" as the writers had no ability to improve the show with respect to my main complaint. The blame almost certainly lies with D&D and whoever else decided on these plot developments. So I blame the showrunners and not the writers for the weakness of the episode. And while I don't think that Arya really threatened to kill Sansa -- Arya wanted Sansa to be nervous that Arya might -- which also is a fairly absurd development. Whatever else Arya might do -- kill Sansa (or even make Sansa fear that Arya might kill Sansa) does not seem like one of them. Here maybe the writers have a little bit of the blame -- but I am not sure what the writers could have done to make the disagreement between the sisters more plausible given that the showrunners determined that LF was going to drive this wedge between them.
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nikma
Syrax
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Post by nikma on Aug 21, 2017 11:38:32 GMT -5
I mean we all know why the White Hunt happened. To keep Cersei and Euron alive and to give dragon to the NK. And also to further develop relationship between Dany and Jon.
It is there to make S8 great. If you think that it is not your job to find excuses for D&D I can respect that, but I have respect for what they are doing, when you consider that the original writer lost the plot.
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Lordimp
Viserion
A Lannister always pays his debts
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Post by Lordimp on Aug 21, 2017 11:52:37 GMT -5
I suspect I will be in the minority on this board - but I did not care for this episode. I had a hard time buying into either of the story lines. I agree with you. The episode had some cool action but the writing was just pitiful. No chance that mission would work. Benjen's last minute rescue of Jon was cheesy and then Benjen dies. What a waste. Jon barely got to talk to him. I don't understand what they are doing with Arya. Did she actually threaten to kill Sansa? I agree that the Benjen scene was not very good.
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