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Post by lordcarson on Aug 29, 2017 5:06:01 GMT -5
Oh sure warn him but let me continue wandering around blindly waiting to be spoiled. I see how it is! they're trying to break us apart and make one of us the lady of winterfell WE MUST BE STRONG TOGETHER
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Post by Envie on Aug 29, 2017 6:33:03 GMT -5
Careful Carson, there was an important scene from the leaks that didn't actually happen in the finale, and some of us believe it hasn't been cut, only postponed to season 8. Not sure if this thread is safe yet. people have since been chatting about this outside of leakbowl so if I were Carson I wouldn't bother worrying because he'll 100% stumble across it Are you talking about the Cersei pregnancy/miscarriage leak that was changed (or maybe was wrong)? That was probably me talking about it in the post-show discussion and I do try to be careful about leak talk but I figured after the finale it didn't matter anymore. We don't know for certain if that was a leaked bit of info they changed or dropped or maybe was never intended to be written so I think it should now be fair game for season 8 speculation. Since we're on that topic and this thread is still going, what do you guys think about that? You think it will still happen in Season 8 or she'll have the baby? Wishful thinking here but I sort of hope she does have the baby. But then again you all saw my theory that Tyrion ends up raising it after Cersei and Jaime are gone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 10:30:54 GMT -5
It was definitely intended to be written as it was in the hacked outlines. It wasn't a leak trap for Lads imo. So I don't think she'll have the baby, as that would be quite a massive change and would require a massive shift in her character arc in season 8.
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Post by jared on Aug 29, 2017 11:33:13 GMT -5
people have since been chatting about this outside of leakbowl so if I were Carson I wouldn't bother worrying because he'll 100% stumble across it Are you talking about the Cersei pregnancy/miscarriage leak that was changed (or maybe was wrong)? That was probably me talking about it in the post-show discussion and I do try to be careful about leak talk but I figured after the finale it didn't matter anymore. We don't know for certain if that was a leaked bit of info they changed or dropped or maybe was never intended to be written so I think it should now be fair game for season 8 speculation. Since we're on that topic and this thread is still going, what do you guys think about that? You think it will still happen in Season 8 or she'll have the baby? Wishful thinking here but I sort of hope she does have the baby. But then again you all saw my theory that Tyrion ends up raising it after Cersei and Jaime are gone. The way I saw it, the original plan of Cersei miscarrying at the end of Season 7 would have served three narrative purposes. One, it would have pushed her towards the edge of madness and/or total despair, as she would have lost her final chance to carry on her family line and subvert Maggy's prophecy. She would be in an even darker place than she was when she blew up the Sept and lost Tommen at the end of Season 6 - if she were ever going to go full "Mad Queen" as some theorized, losing the child would have been a critical impetus. Having the final image of her in Season 7 being her screaming in the darkness with bloodstained robes and a bloodstained bed would have been horrifyingly unsettling, and certainly would have evoked that idea. Two, it would have set up another direct line of contrast between Cersei and Daenerys - the best candidate for the "younger, more beautiful queen". Cersei would have lost her child at almost the precise moment that Dany consummates her relationship with Jon and possibly (almost certainly) becomes pregnant, gaining the child that she never thought that she would have. Three, it would have "punished" Cersei for her decision to betray her word and betray the living. She makes the cold, ruthless, short-sighted decision, and not only does it cost her Jaime, it costs her the child that she values above all else with the possible exception of her crown. Whether the miscarriage was brought on by the stress of losing the child's father or if it could be interpreted as "divine retribution", having the miscarriage happen in such close proximity to Jaime's departure would have underscored the connection pretty clearly. I must admit that while this outcome has a certain poetry to it, this idea of the story punishing Cersei in this specific way for her betrayal always made me extremely uncomfortable. Regardless of how monstrous Cersei can be, taking her unborn child away from her as a direct consequence of her actions is a provocative and contentious idea, one about which I expect that the Internet Thinkpiece Complex would have had Things To Say (I'm always happy to deny them such material). To be fair, the story did a superficially similar thing with Dany losing Rhaego as a consequence for her choice to ask the witch to save Drogo, but in that case ignorance, good intentions, Mirri's desire for revenge, and the specter of blood magic were all complicating factors. This is the primary reason that I'm glad that the miscarriage didn't happen in the finale, and I expect it may have been a contributing factor for the writers removing the scene as well. Looking ahead to Season 8, it's very possible that the miscarriage could still happen - with further distance between Cersei's betrayal and Jaime's departure, perhaps the line of karmic cause-and-effect wouldn't be quite so stark. I genuinely don't believe that Jaime will kill Cersei if she is still carrying his child, so if that outcome is at all possible, then she needs to lose it beforehand. Also, I've never been as 100% committed to the whole Jaime-is-the-valonqar-and-will-kill-Cersei idea as some fans are - I think that there's a chance that he could die fighting in the North alongside Brienne (another way to bring about the idea of him dying "in the arms of the woman I love" that was foreshadowed in Season 5). In the interim, Cersei still having a child to live for means that she will still be a more rational and pragmatic character than she might have been otherwise, which I like. And while I would still lean towards the idea that Cersei and Jaime's last child will never be born, I do think that the possibility of Tyrion raising said child after both of the twins perish is a real one. It's an idea that I quite like, and I think that they laid the groundwork for it in the season finale with Tyrion talking how much he loved Myrcella and Tommen and stressing how, despite Cersei's beliefs, he never wanted to destroy their family. To be honest, this is actually my preferred outcome for the storyline. Some might find it too "happy", but I'll take sweetness over bitterness every time.
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Post by jared on Aug 29, 2017 11:45:57 GMT -5
The only scene that didn't make it was that scene with Varys talking to the littlebirds,it's probably going to end up on the blu rays as a deleted scene . The Cersei miscarriage was most likely either delayed to next season or scrapped altogether,propably for the better imo,it was the only scene in the leak that i thought was out of place . Yeah, I was mildly disappointed that the scene with Varys seeking to re-recruit his little birds was cut (unlike other cut scenes, we have evidence that this one was filmed, because one of the actresses, Annette Hannah, was spotted filming in Spain). It would have served to set up Varys reestablishing his intelligence network, making him more of a factor in the final season. With Littlefinger now dead, a rivalry between him and Qyburn would have been the next best thing. On the other side, however, I don't know exactly where or when the scene would have fit in the finale. Presumably it would have happened during the Dragonpit sequence, most likely during the intervening period when Tyrion was negotiating with Cersei and Team Daenerys was biding their time, waiting. But perhaps the scene didn't turn out well, or perhaps they decided that a scene of Varys recruiting a small child to spy for him didn't match the somber tone of the sequence at that point. Ultimately, I'm fine with it - I'm sure they had their reasons. Generally speaking, whenever I see the deleted scenes on the DVD, I almost always immediately understand why they were cut, which is a testament to the producers knowing what's best. The cut scenes are usually either nice interstitial moments, but unnecessary (Jon considering escaping the wildlings in Season 3), give too much away (Bronn foreshadowing Shae's betrayal in S4), or actively bad (the extended Daario and Grey Worm scene in S5). There have only ever been two deleted scenes that I sincerely wished had remained in the final cut: Tywin fishing and taking Pycelle to task for his senility act in Season 3, and Loras mourning Renly with Margaery in Season 2. Jon saying farewell to Ghost in Season 7 will also fall into that category, but when it comes to any scene involving CGI direwolves, I'm sympathetic that there are other concerns in play (see also Edd retrieving Ghost in S6).
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Post by belle on Aug 29, 2017 11:48:48 GMT -5
Are you talking about the Cersei pregnancy/miscarriage leak that was changed (or maybe was wrong)? That was probably me talking about it in the post-show discussion and I do try to be careful about leak talk but I figured after the finale it didn't matter anymore. We don't know for certain if that was a leaked bit of info they changed or dropped or maybe was never intended to be written so I think it should now be fair game for season 8 speculation. Since we're on that topic and this thread is still going, what do you guys think about that? You think it will still happen in Season 8 or she'll have the baby? Wishful thinking here but I sort of hope she does have the baby. But then again you all saw my theory that Tyrion ends up raising it after Cersei and Jaime are gone. The way I saw it, the original plan of Cersei miscarrying at the end of Season 7 would have served three narrative purposes. One, it would have pushed her towards the edge of madness and/or total despair, as she would have lost her final chance to carry on her family line and subvert Maggy's prophecy. She would be in an even darker place than she was when she blew up the Sept and lost Tommen at the end of Season 6 - if she were ever going to go full "Mad Queen" as some theorized, losing the child would have been a critical impetus. Having the final image of her in Season 7 being her screaming in the darkness with bloodstained robes and a bloodstained bed would have been horrifyingly unsettling, and certainly would have evoked that idea. Two, it would have set up another direct line of contrast between Cersei and Daenerys - the best candidate for the "younger, more beautiful queen". Cersei would have lost her child at almost the precise moment that Dany consummates her relationship with Jon and possibly (almost certainly) becomes pregnant, gaining the child that she never thought that she would have. Three, it would have "punished" her for her decision to betray her word and betray the living. She makes the cold, ruthless, short-sighted decision, and not only does it cost her Jaime, it costs her the child that she values above all else with the possible exception of her crown. Whether the miscarriage was brought on by the stress of losing the child's father or if it could be interpreted as "divine retribution", having the miscarriage happen in such close proximity to Jaime's departure would have underscored the connection pretty clear. I must admit that while this outcome has a certain poetry to it, this idea of the story punishing Cersei in this specific way for her betrayal always made me extremely uncomfortable. Regardless of how monstrous Cersei can be, taking her unborn child away from her as a direct consequence of her actions is a proactive and contentious idea, one I expect that the Internet Thinkpiece Complex would have had Things To Say (the story did a superficially similar thing with Dany losing Rhaego as a consequence for her choice to ask the witch to save Drogo, but in that case ignorance, good intentions, Mirri's desire for revenge, and the specter of blood magic were all complicating factors). This is the primary reason that I'm glad that the miscarriage didn't happen in the finale, and I expect it may have been a contributing factor for the writers removing the scene as well.Looking ahead to Season 8, it's very possible that the miscarriage could still happen - with further distance between Cersei's betrayal and Jaime's departure, perhaps the line of karmic cause-and-effect wouldn't be quite so stark. I genuinely don't believe that Jaime will kill Cersei if she is still carrying his child, so if that outcome is at all possible, then she needs to lose it beforehand. Also, I've never been as 100% committed to the whole Jaime-is-the-valonqar-and-will-kill-Cersei idea as some fans are - I think that there's a chance that he could die fighting in the North alongside Brienne (another way to bring about the idea of him dying "in the arms of the woman I love" that was foreshadowed in Season 5). In the interim, Cersei still having a child to live for means that she will still be a more rational and pragmatic character than she might have been otherwise, which I like. And while I would still lean towards the idea that Cersei and Jaime's last child will never be born, I do think that the possibility of Tyrion raising said child after both of the twins perish is a real one. It's an idea that I quite like, and I think that they laid the groundwork for it in the season finale with Tyrion talking how much he loved Myrcella and Tommen and stressing how, despite Cersei's beliefs, he never wanted to destroy their family. To be honest, this is actually my preferred outcome for the storyline. Some might find it too "happy", but I'll take sweetness over bitterness every time. completely agree with this. i dont care how much of a monster cersei is, the thought of people getting glee and celebrating a miscarriage makes me gag. i'm sure a lot of people will be thrilled when it happens in season 8 anyways but i think it would at least be a little less intense than it was in 7x07. my main guess for them pushing it back is that they want her to lose the baby when dany gets pregnant. which i can understand on a narrative level but tbh even that makes me gag a little. to reward the heroic woman with a baby while simultaneously punishing the bad woman with a miscarriage. i would prefer dany/cersei contrast with her triumphing over cersei with her good actions not with this childbearing nonsense. but i definitely think it will happen, i dont think it was coincidental that dany got jon in the same episode that cersei lost jaime. but while i'm fine with jaime/cersei and dany/jon relationships being served as antiparallels, i'm not so much with this childbearing antiparallel but oh well.
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Post by Envie on Aug 29, 2017 12:35:53 GMT -5
The way I saw it, the original plan of Cersei miscarrying at the end of Season 7 would have served three narrative purposes. One, it would have pushed her towards the edge of madness and/or total despair, as she would have lost her final chance to carry on her family line and subvert Maggy's prophecy. She would be in an even darker place than she was when she blew up the Sept and lost Tommen at the end of Season 6 - if she were ever going to go full "Mad Queen" as some theorized, losing the child would have been a critical impetus. Having the final image of her in Season 7 being her screaming in the darkness with bloodstained robes and a bloodstained bed would have been horrifyingly unsettling, and certainly would have evoked that idea. Two, it would have set up another direct line of contrast between Cersei and Daenerys - the best candidate for the "younger, more beautiful queen". Cersei would have lost her child at almost the precise moment that Dany consummates her relationship with Jon and possibly (almost certainly) becomes pregnant, gaining the child that she never thought that she would have. Three, it would have "punished" her for her decision to betray her word and betray the living. She makes the cold, ruthless, short-sighted decision, and not only does it cost her Jaime, it costs her the child that she values above all else with the possible exception of her crown. Whether the miscarriage was brought on by the stress of losing the child's father or if it could be interpreted as "divine retribution", having the miscarriage happen in such close proximity to Jaime's departure would have underscored the connection pretty clear. I must admit that while this outcome has a certain poetry to it, this idea of the story punishing Cersei in this specific way for her betrayal always made me extremely uncomfortable. Regardless of how monstrous Cersei can be, taking her unborn child away from her as a direct consequence of her actions is a proactive and contentious idea, one I expect that the Internet Thinkpiece Complex would have had Things To Say (the story did a superficially similar thing with Dany losing Rhaego as a consequence for her choice to ask the witch to save Drogo, but in that case ignorance, good intentions, Mirri's desire for revenge, and the specter of blood magic were all complicating factors). This is the primary reason that I'm glad that the miscarriage didn't happen in the finale, and I expect it may have been a contributing factor for the writers removing the scene as well.Looking ahead to Season 8, it's very possible that the miscarriage could still happen - with further distance between Cersei's betrayal and Jaime's departure, perhaps the line of karmic cause-and-effect wouldn't be quite so stark. I genuinely don't believe that Jaime will kill Cersei if she is still carrying his child, so if that outcome is at all possible, then she needs to lose it beforehand. Also, I've never been as 100% committed to the whole Jaime-is-the-valonqar-and-will-kill-Cersei idea as some fans are - I think that there's a chance that he could die fighting in the North alongside Brienne (another way to bring about the idea of him dying "in the arms of the woman I love" that was foreshadowed in Season 5). In the interim, Cersei still having a child to live for means that she will still be a more rational and pragmatic character than she might have been otherwise, which I like. And while I would still lean towards the idea that Cersei and Jaime's last child will never be born, I do think that the possibility of Tyrion raising said child after both of the twins perish is a real one. It's an idea that I quite like, and I think that they laid the groundwork for it in the season finale with Tyrion talking how much he loved Myrcella and Tommen and stressing how, despite Cersei's beliefs, he never wanted to destroy their family. To be honest, this is actually my preferred outcome for the storyline. Some might find it too "happy", but I'll take sweetness over bitterness every time. completely agree with this. i dont care how much of a monster cersei is, the thought of people getting glee and celebrating a miscarriage makes me gag. i'm sure a lot of people will be thrilled when it happens in season 8 anyways but i think it would at least be a little less intense than it was in 7x07. my main guess for them pushing it back is that they want her to lose the baby when dany gets pregnant. which i can understand on a narrative level but tbh even that makes me gag a little. to reward the heroic woman with a baby while simultaneously punishing the bad woman with a miscarriage. i would prefer dany/cersei contrast with her triumphing over cersei with her good actions not with this childbearing nonsense. but i definitely think it will happen, i dont think it was coincidental that dany got jon in the same episode that cersei lost jaime. but while i'm fine with jaime/cersei and dany/jon relationships being served as antiparallels, i'm not so much with this childbearing antiparallel but oh well. This is a good guess and like you, and jared, I find the idea of capitalizing on miscarriage of a baby as 'justice' to be an uncomfortable piece of storytelling regardless if it's Cersei or Daenerys either one. Fans can hate Cersei all they want but even she does not deserve to have to suffer a bloody miscarriage and losing yet another child especially if it's seen as some sort of punishment weirdly paralleled against Daenerys having a child - that's just kind of over the line in the realm of fucked up weird. When the leaks came out, that was one of them I had hoped was wrong and was relieved had been left out of the finale. The writers were definitely affected by the backlash of rape criticism (which I don't feel the same way about) and so it's entirely possible they are deciding to change it.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 29, 2017 12:41:08 GMT -5
I could see Cersei's first scene on season eight being the miscarriage. She wakes up suddenly, finds herself covered in blood. She screams and Ser Gregor comes running in.
Her next scene is Qyburn comforting her, only for them to be informed by Princess Bernadette (heh) that Euron Greyjoy has arrived. Cue elephants.
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Post by belle on Aug 29, 2017 12:45:58 GMT -5
completely agree with this. i dont care how much of a monster cersei is, the thought of people getting glee and celebrating a miscarriage makes me gag. i'm sure a lot of people will be thrilled when it happens in season 8 anyways but i think it would at least be a little less intense than it was in 7x07. my main guess for them pushing it back is that they want her to lose the baby when dany gets pregnant. which i can understand on a narrative level but tbh even that makes me gag a little. to reward the heroic woman with a baby while simultaneously punishing the bad woman with a miscarriage. i would prefer dany/cersei contrast with her triumphing over cersei with her good actions not with this childbearing nonsense. but i definitely think it will happen, i dont think it was coincidental that dany got jon in the same episode that cersei lost jaime. but while i'm fine with jaime/cersei and dany/jon relationships being served as antiparallels, i'm not so much with this childbearing antiparallel but oh well. This is a good guess and like you, and jared, I find the idea of capitalizing on miscarriage of a baby as 'justice' to be an uncomfortable piece of storytelling regardless if it's Cersei or Daenerys either one. Fans can hate Cersei all they want but even she does not deserve to have to suffer a bloody miscarriage and losing yet another child especially if it's seen as some sort of punishment weirdly paralleled against Daenerys having a child - that's just kind of over the line in the realm of fucked up weird. When the leaks came out, that was one of them I had hoped was wrong and was relieved had been left out of the finale. The writers were definitely affected by the backlash of rape criticism (which I don't feel the same way about) and so it's entirely possible they are deciding to change it. Yeah I just really hope cersei losing the baby is handled well in season 8. Punishing cersei with a miscarriage isn't punishing her for being a bad person, it's punishing her for being a bad WOMAN and I hate that. There are far better ways to do a life/death parallel with Cersei and dany than that. It's not cersei's unborn baby's fault that his/her mother is a garbage person
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Post by Envie on Aug 29, 2017 12:49:15 GMT -5
There are far better ways to do a life/death parallel with Cersei and dany than that. It's not cersei's unborn baby's fault that his/her mother is a garbage person The far better storytelling option (IMO) would be to let the child live and carry on the Lannister name. This time hopefully a better influence in their life than the others had. If that were Tyrion, I could see the Lannister legacy living on with a better future.
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Post by belle on Aug 29, 2017 12:57:53 GMT -5
There are far better ways to do a life/death parallel with Cersei and dany than that. It's not cersei's unborn baby's fault that his/her mother is a garbage person The far better storytelling option (IMO) would be to let the child live and carry on the Lannister name. This time hopefully a better influence in their life than the others had. If that were Tyrion, I could see the Lannister legacy living on with a better future. I love your theory of tyrion ending up raising the child. That would be beautiful and unpredictable. It's too bad we know from the original season 7 script that the D's won't go that way
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Post by nikma on Aug 29, 2017 13:03:32 GMT -5
I would like that child to be a dwarf.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Aug 29, 2017 13:06:54 GMT -5
There are far better ways to do a life/death parallel with Cersei and dany than that. It's not cersei's unborn baby's fault that his/her mother is a garbage person The far better storytelling option (IMO) would be to let the child live and carry on the Lannister name. This time hopefully a better influence in their life than the others had. If that were Tyrion, I could see the Lannister legacy living on with a better future. Yes, but remember Cersei is not a young woman. Pregnancy at her age, chances of carrying to term are not excellent. Losing the baby would be losing the last link to Jamie, to the small piece of her heart that still feels anything. It would make her less desirable, and much more dangerous. Once she loses the baby, she really has nothing left to lose.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 29, 2017 13:10:01 GMT -5
The far better storytelling option (IMO) would be to let the child live and carry on the Lannister name. This time hopefully a better influence in their life than the others had. If that were Tyrion, I could see the Lannister legacy living on with a better future. Yes, but remember Cersei is not a young woman. Pregnancy at her age, chances of carrying to term are not excellent. Losing the baby would be losing the last link to Jamie, to the small piece of her heart that still feels anything. It would make her less desirable, and much more dangerous. Once she loses the baby, she really has nothing left to lose. This. That pregnancy is the what remains of her humanity to a certain extent. After she loses the child she'll want to "burn them all". It has been a slow decent for her but in the end she's still our beloved Mad Queen.
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Post by Envie on Aug 29, 2017 13:17:50 GMT -5
The far better storytelling option (IMO) would be to let the child live and carry on the Lannister name. This time hopefully a better influence in their life than the others had. If that were Tyrion, I could see the Lannister legacy living on with a better future. Yes, but remember Cersei is not a young woman. Pregnancy at her age, chances of carrying to term are not excellent. Losing the baby would be losing the last link to Jamie, to the small piece of her heart that still feels anything. It would make her less desirable, and much more dangerous. Once she loses the baby, she really has nothing left to lose. It's true, the risk of miscarriage or pre-term labor go up dramatically after 40 (I'm guessing Jaime/Cersei at around 42-45 based on Joffrey saying Jaime was a 40 year old washed up knight way back when), but it's not as high a risk as a lot of people make it out to be - I had my last child at 40 and he was 13 years behind my other two so I sort of sympathize with Cersei that way . Her age would definitely be a good medical explanation for losing the child. I'm not completely against her losing it, and as noted, it will definitely be the last straw for her coming unhinged - I've said the same thing in past speculation on it when we got the leaks it was happening. But there was something odd in the way Tyrion addressed her in that private meeting they had. Once he realized she wasn't going to kill him, he was able to be himself again and honest with her too. The bits prior to that antagonizing her were to demonstrate she wasn't going to kill him which I think he had a good idea she wasn't going to do. So when she was saying how maybe they should do like Euron and get on a ship and sail away and Tyrion called out her pregnancy, I think there was some sort of odd connection there for him. He had just previously twice said how sorry he was the younger two died and how much he loved them. As much as people predict Daenerys is going to be pregnant due to all the hints, I felt like this could be a hint as well that maybe she actually has the baby. It would be far more tragic if she dies pregnant though, so I hope that doesn't happen. I think I'll go with a 50/50 chance at this point she miscarries it early on in Season 8.
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