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Post by daeronthegood on Jul 14, 2018 21:47:05 GMT -5
Book and show people, please confirm for me who is the Lord/Lady of Casterly Rock? Is it Jamie or Cersei? I know Jamie was Tywin's heir even when he was in the Kingsguard, and the plan to get him out of the Kingsguard so he assume his rightful place; but Tywin died while he was still in the Kingsguard and Cersei became the lady because Tyrion was locked up as a traitor. But once Jamie was kicked out of the Kingsguard does he become the new lord? Is inheritance retroactive? Are there take-backsies? This is bothering me for some reason.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 16, 2018 0:36:32 GMT -5
book-wise cersei. show? who the fuck knows, it has not been addressed at all since tywin died. daughters' inheritance have never been clarified on the show, only mentioned wrt sansa, who allegedly had no living legit male relatives when she was spoken of as key to the north. i've talked about this with non-readers and the general assumption was that kevan was lord in s5-6. the best i could do is point out he wasn't listed as such on the viewers' guide but that's not good enough. one can't just say but the books!!! and with the erasure of other female rulers, there's no proof that d&d wouldn't change this. with cersei having seized the throne and jaime having supported her then run off north, i think she has de facto claim on whatever family titles she wants, so maybe moot point now, but i think the show really did fail on this question with zero recognition of her rights before taking the throne.
my thoughts on jaime is that tywin needed him out of the kingsguard before he died to be recognized as the rightful heir he was the first 16 years of his life. he had no such legal rights all the years he was in the kingsguard no matter what tywin's wishes were. once someone else had inherited after tywin's death, idt jaime could just take the title away any more than a pardoned jorah would take away lyanna mormont's. theoretically the rock could also have been held by the crown through s5-6 as the queen regent and her kingly son were direct heirs. these possibilities can't be ruled out or confirmed esp bc book jaime is still in the kingsguard and the question of what happens when he's not has yet to be explored. but we never saw cersei grant him the title or recognize him as lord and again, he's fucked off north now so it'd be pretty hard to claim even if he wanted to.
anyway, tywin's true heir is tyrion, his 100% lannister son. as he himself pointed out, he kinda fucked his legal status by murdering the previous lord, but he was absolutely the legal heir before that no matter what tywin said. tywin never made any back-up plans for another heir, refusing to give up on the ineligible son who wouldn't consider cooperating until tyrion's neck was on the line, and the tarly case suggests unfavorite sons cannot be disinherited so easily. randyll getting rid of sam had an element of spiteful sadism in addition to the practical solution of the watch, but for convenience's sake he'd probably still prefer to just name dickon his chosen heir as soon as he gave up on sam and have it settle and done with. sam certainly would have been afraid enough to give up his rights without a fight, but it appears law/tradition stood in the way more than sam himself and only an oath could overrule that, as it did for jaime.
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Post by daeronthegood on Jul 16, 2018 15:12:23 GMT -5
book-wise cersei. show? who the fuck knows, it has not been addressed at all since tywin died. daughters' inheritance have never been clarified on the show, only mentioned wrt sansa, who allegedly had no living legit male relatives when she was spoken of as key to the north. i've talked about this with non-readers and the general assumption was that kevan was lord in s5-6. the best i could do is point out he wasn't listed as such on the viewers' guide but that's not good enough. one can't just say but the books!!! and with the erasure of other female rulers, there's no proof that d&d wouldn't change this. with cersei having seized the throne and jaime having supported her then run off north, i think she has de facto claim on whatever family titles she wants, so maybe moot point now, but i think the show really did fail on this question with zero recognition of her rights before taking the throne. my thoughts on jaime is that tywin needed him out of the kingsguard before he died to be recognized as the rightful heir he was the first 16 years of his life. he had no such legal rights all the years he was in the kingsguard no matter what tywin's wishes were. once someone else had inherited after tywin's death, idt jaime could just take the title away any more than a pardoned jorah would take away lyanna mormont's. theoretically the rock could also have been held by the crown through s5-6 as the queen regent and her kingly son were direct heirs. these possibilities can't be ruled out or confirmed esp bc book jaime is still in the kingsguard and the question of what happens when he's not has yet to be explored. but we never saw cersei grant him the title or recognize him as lord and again, he's fucked off north now so it'd be pretty hard to claim even if he wanted to. anyway, tywin's true heir is tyrion, his 100% lannister son. as he himself pointed out, he kinda fucked his legal status by murdering the previous lord, but he was absolutely the legal heir before that no matter what tywin said. tywin never made any back-up plans for another heir, refusing to give up on the ineligible son who wouldn't consider cooperating until tyrion's neck was on the line, and the tarly case suggests unfavorite sons cannot be disinherited so easily. randyll getting rid of sam had an element of spiteful sadism in addition to the practical solution of the watch, but for convenience's sake he'd probably still prefer to just name dickon his chosen heir as soon as he gave up on sam and have it settle and done with. sam certainly would have been afraid enough to give up his rights without a fight, but it appears law/tradition stood in the way more than sam himself and only an oath could overrule that, as it did for jaime. Isn't the entire Lannister story kind of a tragic-comedy? Tywin built his life and took the lives of many to safeguard the legacy of his house, but their rot was extreme self indulgence. Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion all give in to their basest desires at the expense of House Lannister. Tywin himself couldn't get over his prejudices and wounded ego to see that Tyrion is truly his heir- in intellect if not temperament-but instead refused to acknowledge the reality that Tyrion was the rightful heir. It's so sad, but also hilarious.
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Post by cosmos on Jul 16, 2018 18:00:31 GMT -5
When AGOT started, Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock with the theoretical line of succession:
-. Jaime Lannister, Tywin's eldest son, ineligible as a Kingsguard. 1. Tyrion Lannister, Tywin's youngest son. 2. Cersei Lannister, Tywin's only daughter. 3. Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei's eldest son. 4. Tommen Baratheon, Cersei's youngest son. 5. Myrcella Baratheon, Cersei's only daughter. 6. Kevan Lannister, Tywin's first brother. 7. Lancel Lannister, Kevan's first son. 8. Willem Lannister, Kevan's second son. 9. Martyn Lannister, Kevan's third son. 10. Janei Lannister, Kevan's only daughter. 11. Tyrek Lannister, Tywin's nephew by his second brother Tygget. 12. Genna Lannister, Tywin's only sister. 13. Cleos Frey, Genna's first son. 14. Tywin Frey, Cleos' first son. 15. Willem Frey, Cleos' second son. 16. Lyonel Frey, Genna's second son. 17. Tion Frey, Genna's third son. 18. Walder Frey, Genna's fourth son.
This line descended from Tytos Lannister only works if succession follows male-preference primogeniture. We have no way to know how much female and female-line inheritance is accepted in the rest of Westeros outside of Dorne. We have a few examples like House Arryn, House Hornwood, House Waynwood and House Mormont which seems to consider and accept female and female-line succession but only on the extinction of all potential male heirs. By the time Tyrion killed Tywin he was a convicted kingslayer and kinslayer which is probably enough to attaint him of his inheritance rights. Jaime is ineligible. Cersei's position is dubious due to the existence of male heirs. However, Cersei IS The Queen Regent which gives her all the power to declare herself Lady of Casterly Rock. So, Cersei.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 16, 2018 20:31:40 GMT -5
book-wise cersei. show? who the fuck knows, it has not been addressed at all since tywin died. daughters' inheritance have never been clarified on the show, only mentioned wrt sansa, who allegedly had no living legit male relatives when she was spoken of as key to the north. i've talked about this with non-readers and the general assumption was that kevan was lord in s5-6. the best i could do is point out he wasn't listed as such on the viewers' guide but that's not good enough. one can't just say but the books!!! and with the erasure of other female rulers, there's no proof that d&d wouldn't change this. with cersei having seized the throne and jaime having supported her then run off north, i think she has de facto claim on whatever family titles she wants, so maybe moot point now, but i think the show really did fail on this question with zero recognition of her rights before taking the throne. my thoughts on jaime is that tywin needed him out of the kingsguard before he died to be recognized as the rightful heir he was the first 16 years of his life. he had no such legal rights all the years he was in the kingsguard no matter what tywin's wishes were. once someone else had inherited after tywin's death, idt jaime could just take the title away any more than a pardoned jorah would take away lyanna mormont's. theoretically the rock could also have been held by the crown through s5-6 as the queen regent and her kingly son were direct heirs. these possibilities can't be ruled out or confirmed esp bc book jaime is still in the kingsguard and the question of what happens when he's not has yet to be explored. but we never saw cersei grant him the title or recognize him as lord and again, he's fucked off north now so it'd be pretty hard to claim even if he wanted to. anyway, tywin's true heir is tyrion, his 100% lannister son. as he himself pointed out, he kinda fucked his legal status by murdering the previous lord, but he was absolutely the legal heir before that no matter what tywin said. tywin never made any back-up plans for another heir, refusing to give up on the ineligible son who wouldn't consider cooperating until tyrion's neck was on the line, and the tarly case suggests unfavorite sons cannot be disinherited so easily. randyll getting rid of sam had an element of spiteful sadism in addition to the practical solution of the watch, but for convenience's sake he'd probably still prefer to just name dickon his chosen heir as soon as he gave up on sam and have it settle and done with. sam certainly would have been afraid enough to give up his rights without a fight, but it appears law/tradition stood in the way more than sam himself and only an oath could overrule that, as it did for jaime. Isn't the entire Lannister story kind of a tragic-comedy? Tywin built his life and took the lives of many to safeguard the legacy of his house, but their rot was extreme self indulgence. Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion all give in to their basest desires at the expense of House Lannister. Tywin himself couldn't get over his prejudices and wounded ego to see that Tyrion is truly his heir- in intellect if not temperament-but instead refused to acknowledge the reality that Tyrion was the rightful heir. It's so sad, but also hilarious. yeah, man, it's fucking greek. When AGOT started, Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock with the theoretical line of succession: -. Jaime Lannister, Tywin's eldest son, ineligible as a Kingsguard. 1. Tyrion Lannister, Tywin's youngest son. 2. Cersei Lannister, Tywin's only daughter. 3. Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei's eldest son. 4. Tommen Baratheon, Cersei's youngest son. 5. Myrcella Baratheon, Cersei's only daughter. 6. Kevan Lannister, Tywin's first brother. 7. Lancel Lannister, Kevan's first son. 8. Willem Lannister, Kevan's second son. 9. Martyn Lannister, Kevan's third son. 10. Janei Lannister, Kevan's only daughter. 11. Tyrek Lannister, Tywin's nephew by his second brother Tygget. 12. Genna Lannister, Tywin's only sister. 13. Cleos Frey, Genna's first son. 14. Tywin Frey, Cleos' first son. 15. Willem Frey, Cleos' second son. 16. Lyonel Frey, Genna's second son. 17. Tion Frey, Genna's third son. 18. Walder Frey, Genna's fourth son. This line descended from Tytos Lannister only works if succession follows male-preference primogeniture. We have no way to know how much female and female-line inheritance is accepted in the rest of Westeros outside of Dorne. We have a few examples like House Arryn, House Hornwood, House Waynwood and House Mormont which seems to consider and accept female and female-line succession but only on the extinction of all potential male heirs. By the time Tyrion killed Tywin he was a convicted kingslayer and kinslayer which is probably enough to attaint him of his inheritance rights. Jaime is ineligible. Cersei's position is dubious due to the existence of male heirs. However, Cersei IS The Queen Regent which gives her all the power to declare herself Lady of Casterly Rock. So, Cersei. that line is def true in the books. we do know how mainland succession works north of dorne bookwise. it's only the show where things might be more regional. book!cersei is absolutely, positively the lady of casterly rock, recognized as such by kevan and listed in the appendix. her great-grandfather lord gerold only become lord after the convenient death of his child niece, a lady he was ruling as regent for, proof that a daughter comes before her father's younger brothers.
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Post by daeronthegood on Jul 17, 2018 0:16:07 GMT -5
Isn't the entire Lannister story kind of a tragic-comedy? Tywin built his life and took the lives of many to safeguard the legacy of his house, but their rot was extreme self indulgence. Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion all give in to their basest desires at the expense of House Lannister. Tywin himself couldn't get over his prejudices and wounded ego to see that Tyrion is truly his heir- in intellect if not temperament-but instead refused to acknowledge the reality that Tyrion was the rightful heir. It's so sad, but also hilarious. yeah, man, it's fucking greek. When AGOT started, Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock with the theoretical line of succession: -. Jaime Lannister, Tywin's eldest son, ineligible as a Kingsguard. 1. Tyrion Lannister, Tywin's youngest son. 2. Cersei Lannister, Tywin's only daughter. 3. Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei's eldest son. 4. Tommen Baratheon, Cersei's youngest son. 5. Myrcella Baratheon, Cersei's only daughter. 6. Kevan Lannister, Tywin's first brother. 7. Lancel Lannister, Kevan's first son. 8. Willem Lannister, Kevan's second son. 9. Martyn Lannister, Kevan's third son. 10. Janei Lannister, Kevan's only daughter. 11. Tyrek Lannister, Tywin's nephew by his second brother Tygget. 12. Genna Lannister, Tywin's only sister. 13. Cleos Frey, Genna's first son. 14. Tywin Frey, Cleos' first son. 15. Willem Frey, Cleos' second son. 16. Lyonel Frey, Genna's second son. 17. Tion Frey, Genna's third son. 18. Walder Frey, Genna's fourth son. This line descended from Tytos Lannister only works if succession follows male-preference primogeniture. We have no way to know how much female and female-line inheritance is accepted in the rest of Westeros outside of Dorne. We have a few examples like House Arryn, House Hornwood, House Waynwood and House Mormont which seems to consider and accept female and female-line succession but only on the extinction of all potential male heirs. By the time Tyrion killed Tywin he was a convicted kingslayer and kinslayer which is probably enough to attaint him of his inheritance rights. Jaime is ineligible. Cersei's position is dubious due to the existence of male heirs. However, Cersei IS The Queen Regent which gives her all the power to declare herself Lady of Casterly Rock. So, Cersei. that line is def true in the books. we do know how mainland succession works north of dorne bookwise. it's only the show where things might be more regional. book!cersei is absolutely, positively the lady of casterly rock, recognized as such by kevan and listed in the appendix. her great-grandfather lord gerold only become lord after the convenient death of his child niece, a lady he was ruling as regent for, proof that a daughter comes before her father's younger brothers. Interesting, meaning now that Jamie is out of the Kingsguard he can't take Cersei's position because she's been invested as the new Lady of CR. Huh.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 17, 2018 0:44:13 GMT -5
actually i guess he'd be cersei's heir now that she has no living children. he should have inheritance rights back, i just don't think he could jump right in to displace anyone, having lost his white cloak 1.5 seasons after Tywin's death. but then i also believe jaime will be the valonqar in full greek tragedy fashion, which would put him in the same position as tyrion with murdering the previous head of house lannister. in the event someone else kills her and he outlives her for any length of time he can be the legal lord of the rock then. (i see no reason to think genna and her line or kevan's younger kids and tyrek even exist on the show.)
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Post by daeronthegood on Jul 17, 2018 9:17:52 GMT -5
actually i guess he'd be cersei's heir now that she has no living children. he should have inheritance rights back, i just don't think he could jump right in to displace anyone, having lost his white cloak 1.5 seasons after Tywin's death. but then i also believe jaime will be the valonqar in full greek tragedy fashion, which would put him in the same position as tyrion with murdering the previous head of house lannister. in the event someone else kills her and he outlives her for any length of time he can be the legal lord of the rock then. (i see no reason to think genna and her line or kevan's younger kids and tyrek even exist on the show.) Makes sense. There are whole houses that no longer exist on the show.
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