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Post by TheArchmaester on Feb 16, 2019 11:10:15 GMT -5
Kissed by fire is is the most overrated episode of the series. High Sparrow is the most underrated. I love both! But High Sparrow is so good that I was sure season 5 was going to be the best season after I watched that episode
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breakfest
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Post by breakfest on Feb 16, 2019 11:11:42 GMT -5
Yeah, Blackwater is one of the finest episodes of the show. Not just for the amazing character interactions, but for its sense of claustrophobia and impending doom. All of which is sustained throughout. They'll be very lucky if they can replicate that this season. Other than the Red Wedding (which was one scene), it hasn't happened since. Hardhome m8
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Post by TheArchmaester on Feb 16, 2019 11:13:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Blackwater is one of the finest episodes of the show. Not just for the amazing character interactions, but for its sense of claustrophobia and impending doom. All of which is sustained throughout. They'll be very lucky if they can replicate that this season. Other than the Red Wedding (which was one scene), it hasn't happened since. Hardhome m8 Less than half the episode though. Hardhome is more about the chaos for me (which is brilliantly achieved). But it's a different beast.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Feb 16, 2019 11:17:32 GMT -5
Yeah, Blackwater is one of the finest episodes of the show. Not just for the amazing character interactions, but for its sense of claustrophobia and impending doom. All of which is sustained throughout. They'll be very lucky if they can replicate that this season. Other than the Red Wedding (which was one scene), it hasn't happened since. I trust Sapochnik especially after Hardhome, BotB, and TWoW. I think he'll able to capture that in 803 considering the episode won't just consist of epic action sequences, but also the suspense and restlessness that's occurring behind the Winterfell walls and amongst the various POVs that it will intercut between.
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Post by King Tommen on Feb 16, 2019 11:19:20 GMT -5
I maintain that when we get some distance from the series in the years after it's finished airing, that people who binge and experience the show for the first time will not hold up Blackwater up as one of the better eps of the show the way some fans do now. I understand a lot of people have their feelings with George and the books tied up into how they feel about earlier series moments vs later series moments but as this dissipates and episodes can be evaluated on their own merits, Blackwater won't be put up on the pedastal t is now. It's just fine, not remarkable. The Wildfire explosion and the leadup to it will hold a special place but the overall impact of the episode will fade over time.
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Post by King Tommen on Feb 16, 2019 11:27:46 GMT -5
If we're looking even strictly at the first 2 seasons, I'd put Baelor, Fire and Blood and What is Dead May Never Die ahead of Blackwater and then I've got a whole bunch in the following seasons that are demonstrably better.
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Post by breakfest on Feb 16, 2019 11:34:39 GMT -5
Less than half the episode though. Hardhome is more about the chaos for me (which is brilliantly achieved). But it's a different beast. Speaking claustrophobia and sense of impending doom, regardless of runtime I'm putting Hardhome well ahead. Character stuff is topped by Blackwater for sure, but they're both top class. Which is kinda the crux of this, they're both awesome so I can buy an argument for either.
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Post by King Tommen on Feb 16, 2019 11:44:53 GMT -5
Less than half the episode though. Hardhome is more about the chaos for me (which is brilliantly achieved). But it's a different beast. Speaking claustrophobia and sense of impending doom, regardless of runtime I'm putting Hardhome well ahead. Character stuff is topped by Blackwater for sure, but they're both top class. Which is kinda the crux of this, they're both awesome so I can buy an argument for either. TV episodes (like most entertainment mediums) are going to be judged by how they stick the landing. What are you left with as an emotion when the credits roll? And in that sense, Hardhome's closing sequence, with the frantic escape to the boats, the slow walk and resurrection of the dead and the silent stare down between the protagonist and antagonist with no score eclipses anything Blackwater was trying to achieve in its climax. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Additionally, Hardhome isn't even just about the end of the ep, the leadup and the way the attack is orchestrated as well as the individual character moments within it (you didn't know how much you cared about WunWun or Karsi until the end of that ep) are top notch. It's head and shoulders the best episode of the series so far. I have a suspicion that S8E3 will end up being the best but we'll have to wait on that.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Feb 16, 2019 13:31:53 GMT -5
I moved the posts here as they were starting to gear off track from S8 Discussion, but feel free to discuss your thoughts and opinions on previous seasons and episodes in this general thread.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Feb 16, 2019 14:00:24 GMT -5
No episode is "demonstrably better" than another. This isn't science.
And if the criteria is emotion (what could possibly be more subjective???), Cersei contemplating killing her child is more compelling to me than Wun Wun or Karsi dying...
But anyways, I hope Al is right about Sapochnik and ep.3. That's the perfect episode to set up the right atmosphere (previous to the chaos).
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Post by konradsmith on Feb 16, 2019 14:23:24 GMT -5
Speaking of underrated, claustrophobic and tense, the Door deserves mentioning. Plus it's ending was the closest to emotional this show's ever gotten me.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Feb 16, 2019 14:26:59 GMT -5
Speaking of underrated, claustrophobic and tense, the Door deserves mentioning. Plus it's ending was the closest to emotional this show's ever gotten me. And before that scene, Kinvara/Varys is the definition of tense... Mel/Varys went smoothly in comparison
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Investigative Reporter
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Post by konradsmith on Feb 16, 2019 14:53:21 GMT -5
Speaking of underrated, claustrophobic and tense, the Door deserves mentioning. Plus it's ending was the closest to emotional this show's ever gotten me. And before that scene, Kinvara/Varys is the definition of tense... Mel/Varys went smoothly in comparison Plus ________________________________________ <(insert obligatory comment drooling over Eline Powell here).
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Post by King Tommen on Feb 16, 2019 16:10:12 GMT -5
No episode is "demonstrably better" than another. This isn't science. And if the criteria is emotion (what could possibly be more subjective???), Cersei contemplating killing her child is more compelling to me than Wun Wun or Karsi dying... But anyways, I hope Al is right about Sapochnik and ep.3. That's the perfect episode to set up the right atmosphere (previous to the chaos). Well obviously it's all subjective, it's why I said "I think", but let's not get buried in semantics here. And I think when we're talking about emotion, it's not necessarily about the stakes (ie whether a character is close to dying or not) as much as the things the characters do in the episode that make you care about them. Hardhome works very hard to put the audience in the position to care about what is happening to these characters that were basically introduced at the start of the episode so that everything they're doing in the climax becomes compelling (that's impressive). And while everyone can have their own feelings about how compelling it was to watch Cersei with Tommen, it didn't really impact me that much mostly because the show hadn't bothered (in the episode or previously in the series to that point) to make Tommen anything more than a prop. In fact, that conversation was I think the first time we'd even seen Cersei addressing Tommen in any way so it's hard for me to ramp up feelings about what might happen because like most of the audience, you're more like "oh yeah, she has another kid" than "Oh no, Tommen!". If you're going to have a big dramatic scene where a mother might kill her child, you may want to set that up earlier in the ep with a scene or two with the mother and child where we can see how much she loves him. Again, just my opinion and to each their own but Blackwater suffers from a lot of problems like that where they don't bother staying with some of the characters and building them up to a degree where you ultimately care about what's happening to them in the episode climax (Stannis being the biggest culprit, I suppose because they removed Davos off the playing field almost immediately so for the rest of the ep Stannis has no one to play off of so they just mostly ignore his story).
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Post by King Tommen on Feb 16, 2019 16:14:58 GMT -5
I agree that The Door is tremendous and I think gets forgotten because it's a mid-season episode.
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