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Post by sercreighton on Jul 3, 2016 12:03:36 GMT -5
This is more repetition of numbers but anyways, Jon dodged 3 arrows from Ramsay with a shield, and before he took 3 arrows shot by Ygritte, and before that Robb was shot with 3 crossbow bolts at the Red Wedding. It's also very fitting Jon was using a Mormont shield since he fights with a Mormont sword. Once again D&D are giving the books a nod here, it's not the exact dame in the books in some case. But Martin is well known for his highly repetitive use of 3 as a literary device. I'll toss a couple more on there if it's ok. When Stannis leaves Dragon stone he burns 3 people, and when we see Lancel looking at the candles there are 3 of them and of course you have Dany the queen of 3's. D&D sometimes get a bad rap for certain things but a lot of times they are just nodding to the books. Sexposition in season 5 with Loras and Oliver. People called the seen pointless and said D&D were just trying to get naked bodies on screen. But a closer look reveals a not so subtle parallel. Loras is a rose (The Tyrell Sigil) and he is with his squire Oliver. Oliver points out his birthmark of Dorne. A rose, birth and Dorne, and you have Oliver the squire. Then you have Jon, also considered to be a symbolic rose in the books do to Dany's vision, born in Dorne, and he also has a Squire, Olly aka Oliver. Both Olly and Oliver will betray their roses. We even have Loras and Oliver and Jon and Olly practicing with swords. You get nods to parallels, and to Jon's true identity back in season 5. D&D don't get nearly enough credit for their nods to the book readers, and Martin. Martins use of Juxtaposition via parallels, and literary devices involving 3 (rule of 3, imagery, symbolism) are all hallmarks of the show. Though many fans don't spot them in the books and are not able to connect them to the show and then call the producers hacks because they don't always understand what they are looking at.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 3, 2016 15:36:12 GMT -5
That's a boarder line a promo, very nicely juxtaposed. There is also the idea that Dany used fire to destroy her enemies and fire (Mel a red priestess) was used to bring back Jon. Dany has that sort of standard Phoenix analogy the external fire symbolic rebirth we have seen with her before. While Jon is internal even in location, she's outside and he is inside. Complimentary counterpart, obvious and obscure. The continue to connect these two characters. I like the outside / inside observations. There is a video out there of a bunch of behind the scenes commentary from season 6. It's about 80 min long, the director of that episode, Calls the two moments ice and fire. And goes into it a bit.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 4, 2016 18:03:38 GMT -5
Complimentary counterpart, obvious and obscure. The continue to connect these two characters. I like the outside / inside observations. There is a video out there of a bunch of behind the scenes commentary from season 6. It's about 80 min long, the director of that episode, Calls the two moments ice and fire. And goes into it a bit. Ooh, do you have a link to the video..would love to watch it.
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Post by Envie on Jul 5, 2016 10:18:47 GMT -5
Found a really interesting article pointing out how Season 6 almost mirrored Season 1. www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/news/a799921/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-was-just-season-1-again/The parallels are very strong between Season 1 "Fire and Blood" episode and Season 6 "Winds of Winter" episode - coincidence or intentional writing? 1. In both episodes Tyrion is named hand of the king. For Joffrey in one (via Tywin) and by Daenerys in the other. 2. Dany saying good-bye to a lover before embarking on a new life (Drogo's death in one, Daario dismissal in the other) 3. Robb Stark named KitN in Fire and Blood, while Jon Snow named KitN in Winds of Winter ... Imgur comparisons: imgur.com/a/kffAD
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 5, 2016 11:56:17 GMT -5
There is a video out there of a bunch of behind the scenes commentary from season 6. It's about 80 min long, the director of that episode, Calls the two moments ice and fire. And goes into it a bit. Ooh, do you have a link to the video..would love to watch it. Of course, sorry it took a couple days things get really busy at work with the 4th. Also I got hit by a bus. Sort of. I feel like I got hit by a bus, to much sun. But there was a bus incident and I am blaming the bus for everything. It was not so much that I got hit by a bus but rather while crossing the typical impatient bus driver lurched forward trying to force his way through the crowd of pedestrians. So I hit the bus, and then gave the obligatory "hey!!" and a aggressive finger point. For me it comes out of the gate much faster than the more traditional "I'm walkin here!" I can relly project the "HEY!" The bus driver responded in kind with the obligatory inverted two handed what pose. I responded in kind with a what do you mean what? Which started a pleasent conversation between us as stood in front of his bus, shouting... So he could hear me... Through the glass? Oh it was lovely conversation, we talked about our families, mostly our mothers, places in which the sun may or may not be shining, oh lots of pleasentries, till officer toot toot who was working the intersection decided to give toot and he and my sidekick decided it would be better if walked across the street. They were so kind to help me cross. Two other friendly officers were down to the lovely conversation. Unfortunatly the driver in his urgency to leave bumped into one of them because he was not paying attention again to busy taking in the sights and sounds. Oh it was so humorous, I laughed and laughed, and Toot toot seemed to become exasperated, and my sidekick for some odd reason kept her face buried in her hands, something about embarrassing. Now all I saw was the cyclical nature of parallels repeating themselves. Don't you love it when I relegate you with stories of my life before giving you the information you seek? I even worked in a parallel. Stop shaking your head, you've made it this far, suck it up it comes as part of the Ser Creighton package, it's like an all expenses paid trip to hell but nothing is free and you must suffer through it in order to get that which you desire. A YouTube video. It's between the 10-13 min mark. There it's over now, until the next time. You know you can always skip right to the link, but it's not possible. You're a completionist, you have to read it, once you start it must be finished. You don't want to finish , but nobody wants to look at a train wreck either or I as call them Lauras after my second girlfriend, but you can't look away from Lauras not once you've caught a glimps. You didn't even stop once you got to the video, your still reading, oh for shame peaches, for shame, you should no better by now. Just quickly look for the link, a flash glance, then click it, don't start reading, whatever you do don't start reading. Ok it's over, you can relax... But wait there is more. "Why is he still writing I want to watch the video, make it stop, make it stop ." You might be saying to yourself at this point. Ok I am done... I really really really mean it this time. Nothing more, I have finished. "I am going to kill him " you are probably thinking. But it's over, you can now relax, as soon as you finish reading this, because the end is near, it's just around the corner, until I post again and the suffering begins again. Hope you had a happy 4th.
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Post by Envie on Jul 5, 2016 12:32:08 GMT -5
That video is great because the person put ALL of the behind-the-scenes docu-series into one long video so you can watch it clear through for an hour or so, well done.
I've missed a few of those, so I bookmarked that and will for sure finish it soon.
The "Fire and Ice" comparison was clearly there from David and Dan. I knew they'd eventually get around to talking about it when they felt they'd filmed the right parts and Jon's resurrection in the cold/ice and Dany's in hot/fire was a great parallel we've all enjoyed.
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Post by stannisforking299al on Jul 5, 2016 12:43:11 GMT -5
I feel like there is some sort of parallel in the music. Roberts "Kings arrival" theme has a parallel with both Joffreys "the throne is mine" and Stannis' Blackwater theme. There is somewhat of a parallel between the White Walkers theme and the Lord of Light theme. In fact, there is a subtle similarly in all the music of the series, especially music related to specific characters.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 13:17:34 GMT -5
Also, both deaths were followed by a 1v1: Jaime vs Ned and Jon vs Ramsay
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Post by Envie on Jul 5, 2016 19:59:13 GMT -5
Posted by morgantayler , a great bit of foreshadowing symbolism.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 5, 2016 21:49:59 GMT -5
Tons of symbolism and parallel comparisons in the show, not just between Jon and Daenerys, but many scenes have callbacks to others with similar themes. I love that about the show writing. Here's the most recent one: I don't know how to post the pics open but there is something else. This is a great parallel but there is another. Okay so we have that moment when Dany sacks Astapor and then you have the Yunkai liberation pick right. Well right around that time the Night's King sacked the fist and gave you this later on. grizzlybomb.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-horse-head.png?w=500Now in season one Dany woke the Dragons. i.makeagif.com/media/8-21-2015/jv7v_P.gifAnd the Others did this on the show. 1.bp.blogspot.com/-2eRsaTM9iyU/VZaGJ3W5HBI/AAAAAAAABXE/0mZM50Rmhpc/s1600/dead%2Bcorpses.jpgThere is an inverse parallel. But one other thing, given what we know he can do from Bran, I think he sees her, and these are like his his gifts. Maybe not sure what he thinks, I am just pretty sure he can see her. Do you remember what Jon said at the end of episode 10, During his last scene. " The true enemy won't wait out the storm, he brings the storm." In Dany's scene prior to this the show goes out of it's way to remind you of something. "Who can ever follow Deanerys Stormborn." Then Bran, then Jon. And the show closes with this, lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/1163/8716b4d0-1eae-0134-654d-060e3e89e053.jpg?A Storm is coming.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 6, 2016 0:33:27 GMT -5
the last time we saw Cersei on the throne she was preparing to do a murder/suicide with Tommen, now she's indirectly caused his suicide and claimed his throne for herself. Marg was warned by Cersei in s3: Now the 3 main Tyrells and the Sparrows aren't just gone, they were slaughtered. Just like during Blackwater, Cersei kept true to her s1 line to Robert at her coronation. Dany first asserted herself as Queen the night burned someone to death during a religious ceremony, her husband's funeral. She gained the support of the rest of the Dothraki the night she destroyed their temple and burned all her Dothraki enemies inside, during what was meant to be an important gathering for them to decide her fate. Cersei stole the throne Dany wants after destroying Westoros' most important church and burning all those inside, during what was meant to be an important gathering for them to decide her fate, a gathering which was also a religious ceremony because the guys in charge of her fate were all priests.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 6, 2016 7:53:53 GMT -5
Tons of symbolism and parallel comparisons in the show, not just between Jon and Daenerys, but many scenes have callbacks to others with similar themes. I love that about the show writing. Here's the most recent one: I don't know how to post the pics open but there is something else. This is a great parallel but there is another. Okay so we have that moment when Dany sacks Astapor and then you have the Yunkai liberation pick right. Well right around that time the Night's King sacked the fist and gave you this later on. grizzlybomb.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-horse-head.png?w=500Now in season one Dany woke the Dragons. i.makeagif.com/media/8-21-2015/jv7v_P.gifAnd the Others did this on the show. 1.bp.blogspot.com/-2eRsaTM9iyU/VZaGJ3W5HBI/AAAAAAAABXE/0mZM50Rmhpc/s1600/dead%2Bcorpses.jpgThere is an inverse parallel. But one other thing, given what we know he can do from Bran, I think he sees her, and these are like his his gifts. Maybe not sure what he thinks, I am just pretty sure he can see her. Do you remember what Jon said at the end of episode 10, During his last scene. " The true enemy won't wait out the storm, he brings the storm." In Dany's scene prior to this the show goes out of it's way to remind you of something. "Who can ever follow Deanerys Stormborn." Then Bran, then Jon. And the show closes with this, lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/1163/8716b4d0-1eae-0134-654d-060e3e89e053.jpg?A Storm is coming. I'm pretty sure we had this discussion last year, after Mother Mercy when we noticed that the pattern the Dothraki were making while riding around Dany was similar to the one the Others made at the First of the First Men. Here are the photo comparisons: Episode 1x01: " Winter is Coming" Episode 1x10: " Fire and Blood" Episode 3x01: " Valar Dohaeris" Episode 5x10: " Mother Mercy" (it's hard to see but the are running in the same pattern as the above image. here is the videohttps://youtu.be/qEz1-9moEBQ ). Anywho, even the names of the episodes seem to symbolize something. I forget which behind the episode it was, but in this season D&D talked about the Others and how they weren't really evil but a force of nature a representation of Death itself, that they were created to bring Death. I think we are supposed to draw a connection between this and the humans who consciously bring death and destruction upon their fellow man. So, the Others are a force of nature and in many ways so is Dany (she was born during the worst storm to ever hot Westeros). You mention the quote about bringing the Storm, you know who else said that Euron, before he killed his brother Balon he said: “I am the storm, brother...” I feel like both the Others and Euron are foils of Dany. Euron from what we know in the books wants to bring back the Valyrian culture and is obsessed with Valyaria. Dany for all her claims of being a Valyrian has rejected with her actions their culture, instead of using the dragons to enslave like the Valyarian’s did once upon a time; she uses them to free people. I’m not sure how they will do it on the show but I think Dany will have a very nasty battle with Euron were thing won’t go her way for a while before she is able to kill him. As for the Other, Dany is their foil in that they are representative of cold, death, and darkness and Dany is representative of warmth, life and light (mother). This quote from Dany’s chapter in the House of the Undying is very interesting: I think here the Undying (who I believe are representative of the Others), have been waiting for a long time for Dany, a thousand years I think they say (the Others might have been waiting for something else but along the same lines). They want her life force, what she is and what she represents and try to take it from her but she is saved by Drogon. Looking at the bolded words theses are very symbolic of the ice and fire theme of the story. On another note and around the same vane I was thinking about the scene in the show where the Children of the Forrest stab the young man through the heart and create the Nights King or Death Incarnate and how this has parallels with Azur Ahai. The basic story of Azur Ahai was that he needed to forge a weapon, a sword in order to defeat the Others. He attempted to forge the sword twice without success and on the third try he used the life force of his wife in order to create Lightbringer (used death to create life). Two stabbings to the heart, one of them created Death the other was created to fight death and bring back Light (life). You can also tie this in with the Quarthian story of the first birth of the dragons but that's more of a book discussion. ETA: I haven't tied Jon to all of this, but he's obviously part of it. He himself died and came back to life.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 6, 2016 15:59:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure we had this discussion last year, after Mother Mercy when we noticed that the pattern the Dothraki were making while riding around Dany was similar to the one the Others made at the First of the First Men. Here are the photo comparisons: Episode 1x01: " Winter is Coming" Episode 1x10: " Fire and Blood" Episode 3x01: " Valar Dohaeris" Episode 5x10: " Mother Mercy" (it's hard to see but the are running in the same pattern as the above image. here is the videohttps://youtu.be/qEz1-9moEBQ ). Anywho, even the names of the episodes seem to symbolize something. I forget which behind the episode it was, but in this season D&D talked about the Others and how they weren't really evil but a force of nature a representation of Death itself, that they were created to bring Death. I think we are supposed to draw a connection between this and the humans who consciously bring death and destruction upon their fellow man. So, the Others are a force of nature and in many ways so is Dany (she was born during the worst storm to ever hot Westeros). You mention the quote about bringing the Storm, you know who else said that Euron, before he killed his brother Balon he said: “I am the storm, brother...” I feel like both the Others and Euron are foils of Dany. Euron from what we know in the books wants to bring back the Valyrian culture and is obsessed with Valyaria. Dany for all her claims of being a Valyrian has rejected with her actions their culture, instead of using the dragons to enslave like the Valyarian’s did once upon a time; she uses them to free people. I’m not sure how they will do it on the show but I think Dany will have a very nasty battle with Euron were thing won’t go her way for a while before she is able to kill him. As for the Other, Dany is their foil in that they are representative of cold, death, and darkness and Dany is representative of warmth, life and light (mother). This quote from Dany’s chapter in the House of the Undying is very interesting: I think here the Undying (who I believe are representative of the Others), have been waiting for a long time for Dany, a thousand years I think they say (the Others might have been waiting for something else but along the same lines). They want her life force, what she is and what she represents and try to take it from her but she is saved by Drogon. Looking at the bolded words theses are very symbolic of the ice and fire theme of the story. On another note and around the same vane I was thinking about the scene in the show where the Children of the Forrest stab the young man through the heart and create the Nights King or Death Incarnate and how this has parallels with Azur Ahai. The basic story of Azur Ahai was that he needed to forge a weapon, a sword in order to defeat the Others. He attempted to forge the sword twice without success and on the third try he used the life force of his wife in order to create Lightbringer (used death to create life). Two stabbings to the heart, one of them created Death the other was created to fight death and bring back Light (life). You can also tie this in with the Quarthian story of the first birth of the dragons but that's more of a book discussion. ETA: I haven't tied Jon to all of this, but he's obviously part of it. He himself died and came back to life. Sorry I try not to mix in to much book talk here, it's just hard because it's the source material and it often helps connect the dots. You know D&D are trying to repeat what Martin said about evil, you know the philosophical debate. Is evil evil? What is evil? But back Martin into a corner and he kind of gives way on characters like the Mountain, Ramsey, Joff, etc... They're not evil they are just really bad people. I think the Night's King is as bad as it gets. Oh we totally agree on the Undying, though I would actually include the 13 in that, and the idea of the Milk men or their symbolism, the pale men with water in their veins. The giant floating heart in a blue cold room of undead was kind of a dead give away. It ended well too, Blue guys yeah we have her. Blue guys meet drogon Drogon wins. Quick book talk about Euron, we talked about the sample reading Martin did about him and how he is you know bat chit crazy, and super evil. I'll try to be obscure as to not spoil, show Euron and Book Euron appear to be very different people. I think D&D may just to to the chase on the show where in the books Euron will have a bigger role. I very much agree Euron is this sort of Valyrian wanna be in the books. But his symbolism suggests a inverse to the Night's King, though Euron is also a Monster, he seems similar to the Bloodstone emperor. My own belief is that he is a green dreamer and he uses shade as a kicker. But that his dreams have no been about Valyria but that he has been seeing the Night's King and like he does trying to make himself a Valyrian he sort of mimics him, but he chose fire as his element. Or Martin did, the color of his crows eye, and all the Valyrian stuff he collects. But I think like the Night's King he is obsessed with Dany. The only one that is worthy of "him". Some of the imagery, the death of all the religious aspects, while he sits as a lone god among them, the tall woman and pale fire, and what he did to the blue Warlocks, you also get the slavery and cannibalism aspect with him. For me Jon fits in to make this a love triangle. I use this term very loosely, like Drogo and Viserys, the Slaver and a Targaryen King (Two Kings), or Hiz and Darrio (Two men who wanted to be Kings), a slaver and a Crow/who looks Valyrian to her for a moment. I think this repeats a third time, it's like life is trying to fit the right pieces together, this is all about Destiny. I think that is where Jon comes in, show Jon is now internal fire because of Mel and of course you have the Night's King who is Ice. Both are kings. Dany is placed between these two kings, and Jon is placed between his family symbolism. So it works out to a nice Ice and Fire parallel between Jon and Dany, which takes you back to Dany's drink from the cup of Ice, drink from the cup of fire. If you consider Dany will probably be the person most likely to also drink both shade and weirwood sap. And those trees as you know represent parallels with inverted symbolism.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 6, 2016 21:40:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure we had this discussion last year, after Mother Mercy when we noticed that the pattern the Dothraki were making while riding around Dany was similar to the one the Others made at the First of the First Men. Here are the photo comparisons: Episode 1x01: " Winter is Coming" Episode 1x10: " Fire and Blood" Episode 3x01: " Valar Dohaeris" Episode 5x10: " Mother Mercy" (it's hard to see but the are running in the same pattern as the above image. here is the videohttps://youtu.be/qEz1-9moEBQ ). Anywho, even the names of the episodes seem to symbolize something. I forget which behind the episode it was, but in this season D&D talked about the Others and how they weren't really evil but a force of nature a representation of Death itself, that they were created to bring Death. I think we are supposed to draw a connection between this and the humans who consciously bring death and destruction upon their fellow man. So, the Others are a force of nature and in many ways so is Dany (she was born during the worst storm to ever hot Westeros). You mention the quote about bringing the Storm, you know who else said that Euron, before he killed his brother Balon he said: “I am the storm, brother...” I feel like both the Others and Euron are foils of Dany. Euron from what we know in the books wants to bring back the Valyrian culture and is obsessed with Valyaria. Dany for all her claims of being a Valyrian has rejected with her actions their culture, instead of using the dragons to enslave like the Valyarian’s did once upon a time; she uses them to free people. I’m not sure how they will do it on the show but I think Dany will have a very nasty battle with Euron were thing won’t go her way for a while before she is able to kill him. As for the Other, Dany is their foil in that they are representative of cold, death, and darkness and Dany is representative of warmth, life and light (mother). This quote from Dany’s chapter in the House of the Undying is very interesting: I think here the Undying (who I believe are representative of the Others), have been waiting for a long time for Dany, a thousand years I think they say (the Others might have been waiting for something else but along the same lines). They want her life force, what she is and what she represents and try to take it from her but she is saved by Drogon. Looking at the bolded words theses are very symbolic of the ice and fire theme of the story. On another note and around the same vane I was thinking about the scene in the show where the Children of the Forrest stab the young man through the heart and create the Nights King or Death Incarnate and how this has parallels with Azur Ahai. The basic story of Azur Ahai was that he needed to forge a weapon, a sword in order to defeat the Others. He attempted to forge the sword twice without success and on the third try he used the life force of his wife in order to create Lightbringer (used death to create life). Two stabbings to the heart, one of them created Death the other was created to fight death and bring back Light (life). You can also tie this in with the Quarthian story of the first birth of the dragons but that's more of a book discussion. ETA: I haven't tied Jon to all of this, but he's obviously part of it. He himself died and came back to life. Sorry I try not to mix in to much book talk here, it's just hard because it's the source material and it often helps connect the dots. You know D&D are trying to repeat what Martin said about evil, you know the philosophical debate. Is evil evil? What is evil? But back Martin into a corner and he kind of gives way on characters like the Mountain, Ramsey, Joff, etc... They're not evil they are just really bad people. I think the Night's King is as bad as it gets. Oh we totally agree on the Undying, though I would actually include the 13 in that, and the idea of the Milk men or their symbolism, the pale men with water in their veins. The giant floating heart in a blue cold room of undead was kind of a dead give away. It ended well too, Blue guys yeah we have her. Blue guys meet drogon Drogon wins. And who else is connected with the number 13? The show Night King is not the same man as the 13th LC of the NW, but look back at the scene where he is first introduced. That's right, there are 12 WW standing behind him, for a total of 13.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 7, 2016 22:46:01 GMT -5
It's all been pointed out here already but this video's pretty good.
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