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Post by TheMadQueen on May 1, 2019 18:45:29 GMT -5
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Post by iheartseverus on May 1, 2019 20:42:52 GMT -5
This is interesting--the Night King actor actually played 14 different parts throughout the GoT saga. Here he talks about his smirk when Dany tried to dracarys him, and how Sapochnik had him doing take after take with different expressions until the director finally settled on the smirk. www.syfy.com/syfywire/game-of-thrones-night-king-story-behind-that-smirk
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Post by freypies on May 1, 2019 23:48:59 GMT -5
I think all of us here probably know all of these already, but in case someone is interested, I compiled all instances I could find that suggested that Arya was going to be the one to kill the Night King:
Season 8 Episode 1 - Winterfell Scene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShNNEn30Yi8))
Jon says to Arya, "how'd you sneak up on me?"
Season 7 Episode 4 - The Spoils of War Scene 1: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OkJumB_ehU))
Brienne and Arya spar. Arya holds her knife in one hand, but as Brienne grabs it, she flips it into her other, and uses that to enter a stalemate with Brienne. Parallels the way in which she kills the Night King.
Scene 2: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELY0haRa4g))
Bran himself gives Arya the dagger. Being Mr. Mystical, he may have had some indication of what is to come.
Season 7 Episode 1 - Dragonstone Scene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEk8hUZ1lIE)) (skip to 7:00)
Sam is searching books for how to defeat White Walkers, and the image of the dagger Arya used to do it shows up there.
Season 3 Episode 6 - The Climb Scene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--upuSZnCc))
"I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."
Season 2 Episode 10 - Valar Morghulis Scene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31RoHC15pM)) (skip to 8:15)
Arya asks Jaqen what he is doing here (in Westeros). Jaqen answers, "waiting for you". Jaqen, as we know, worships the God of Death. There is some tie between Arya and the concept of death itself if she is significant enough that Jaqen would be there waiting for her. Only smiling when she says she is leaving back home for Winterfell in No One may also be tied to him knowing something about the bigger purpose that Arya eventually ends up fulfilling.
Season 1 Episode 3 - Lord Snow Scene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXK-inss34))
"There is only one god and his name is Death, and there is only one thing we say to death - 'not today'".
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Post by sercreighton on May 2, 2019 1:01:18 GMT -5
I enjoyed it but he also made mistakes. What he meant by screening and scouting with the Dothraki applies to modern use of recon, ranger, force recon, and Raiders. Forward position and beyond battlefield tactics. You could consider using roaming patrols in outriders. Which is what they did back then, but it's not in force. It's a defensive formation, you don't charge out of a defensive formation. So your cav is on the flanks and in the rear. Infantry is always vulnerable on the flank. Cav gives you the speed you need to counter pincer movments from a superior force. Any recon should of already been out there beyond the battlefield looking to spot the advancing hoard. At least until sunset, these guys would be useless out there after that. The Unsullied were not in the rear, they were in the center where they should be and three units deep which is a mistake. The Vale was on the strong left, and the Northern force on the weak side. Dead right about the trebuchets being placed ahead of the trench. Have no idea why. Useless in close support anyway. There was no close indirect fire support which should of been behind the trench line. Almost no Archers at all except in the Godswood. Painting dragons wings would be useless in a white out. Jon didn't want the dragons seen, he thought the NK might think they were not here. They were part of the trap. Though I think Bran could of told him if the NK could do what Bran does and thus trying to hide the dragons was useless. He was also prepared for it, that's what the white out was for. Had team North kept their cav on the flanks and in the rear when the hoard attacked, your cav can now advance on their flanks. I also did not understand why they only had one collapsible bridge over the trenches. The Unsullied performed a rear guard action as the left and right flanks peeled off and made for the choke point, more commonly known as a death funnel. We call it that for a reason. I did find it funny that after the trench was lit they just stood there not doing anything, shoot some arrows at them. And where were the Archers? I counted 5 at one point on the wall, that's it? The battle had style though, not much substance but the charge was pretty, all 20 seconds of it. I am not sure how Jon lives with his decision making process. The single biggest combat multiplier they had were the Walls and they were heavily under manned while his entire force was improperly aligned and the field was underprepared. Zero recon, even in the books the dragons were often used to scout. A fire ire trap out in the field would of been a good start, Dragonglass bear traps, log jams. Could made them duel purpose force the enemy to center and cover them with oil and light them up for markers. No oil or pitch on the walls either. Another amazing stroke of genius, the left and right flanks had no spears, at least not in the front. Which is where you put them. They could of actually won heads up with a little work. The punch his ticket victory condition was pretty lame. Turned him into nothing more than a plot device.
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Post by sercreighton on May 2, 2019 1:10:13 GMT -5
I think all of us here probably know all of these already, but in case someone is interested, I compiled all instances I could find that suggested that Arya was going to be the one to kill the Night King: Season 8 Episode 1 - WinterfellScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShNNEn30Yi8)) Jon says to Arya, "how'd you sneak up on me?" Season 7 Episode 4 - The Spoils of WarScene 1: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OkJumB_ehU)) Brienne and Arya spar. Arya holds her knife in one hand, but as Brienne grabs it, she flips it into her other, and uses that to enter a stalemate with Brienne. Parallels the way in which she kills the Night King. Scene 2: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELY0haRa4g)) Bran himself gives Arya the dagger. Being Mr. Mystical, he may have had some indication of what is to come. Season 7 Episode 1 - DragonstoneScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEk8hUZ1lIE)) (skip to 7:00) Sam is searching books for how to defeat White Walkers, and the image of the dagger Arya used to do it shows up there. Season 3 Episode 6 - The ClimbScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--upuSZnCc)) "I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again." Season 2 Episode 10 - Valar MorghulisScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31RoHC15pM)) (skip to 8:15) Arya asks Jaqen what he is doing here (in Westeros). Jaqen answers, "waiting for you". Jaqen, as we know, worships the God of Death. There is some tie between Arya and the concept of death itself if she is significant enough that Jaqen would be there waiting for her. Only smiling when she says she is leaving back home for Winterfell in No One may also be tied to him knowing something about the bigger purpose that Arya eventually ends up fulfilling. Season 1 Episode 3 - Lord SnowScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXK-inss34)) "There is only one god and his name is Death, and there is only one thing we say to death - 'not today'". They came up with the idea 3 years ago when writing outlines for season 7-8. So anything before that means nothing. So that season 1,2,3 stuff is just wishful thinking. They wanted it to be Valyrian steel, not Jon, unexpected plot twist for the walking not talking plot device called the NK resolution. Nothing more, nothing less. And they already said this.
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Post by konradsmith on May 2, 2019 1:17:50 GMT -5
I think all of us here probably know all of these already, but in case someone is interested, I compiled all instances I could find that suggested that Arya was going to be the one to kill the Night King: Season 8 Episode 1 - WinterfellScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShNNEn30Yi8)) Jon says to Arya, "how'd you sneak up on me?" Season 7 Episode 4 - The Spoils of WarScene 1: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OkJumB_ehU)) Brienne and Arya spar. Arya holds her knife in one hand, but as Brienne grabs it, she flips it into her other, and uses that to enter a stalemate with Brienne. Parallels the way in which she kills the Night King. Scene 2: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELY0haRa4g)) Bran himself gives Arya the dagger. Being Mr. Mystical, he may have had some indication of what is to come. Season 7 Episode 1 - DragonstoneScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEk8hUZ1lIE)) (skip to 7:00) Sam is searching books for how to defeat White Walkers, and the image of the dagger Arya used to do it shows up there. Season 3 Episode 6 - The ClimbScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--upuSZnCc)) "I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again." Season 2 Episode 10 - Valar MorghulisScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31RoHC15pM)) (skip to 8:15) Arya asks Jaqen what he is doing here (in Westeros). Jaqen answers, "waiting for you". Jaqen, as we know, worships the God of Death. There is some tie between Arya and the concept of death itself if she is significant enough that Jaqen would be there waiting for her. Only smiling when she says she is leaving back home for Winterfell in No One may also be tied to him knowing something about the bigger purpose that Arya eventually ends up fulfilling. Season 1 Episode 3 - Lord SnowScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXK-inss34)) "There is only one god and his name is Death, and there is only one thing we say to death - 'not today'". They came up with the idea 3 years ago when writing outlines for season 7-8. So anything before that means nothing. So that season 1,2,3 stuff is just wishful thinking. They wanted it to be Valyrian steel, not Jon, unexpected plot twist for the walking not talking plot device called the NK resolution. Nothing more, nothing less. And they already said this. And GrrM originally wanted a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion and for Catelyn to die north of the Wall and for Jaime to murder his way to being king while he was writing AGOT. It doesn't stop lines from the first book from being referred to later in the series. Now that might be retconning of a kind but until we got that outline letter to his editor we wouldn't have known that. We'd have taken his callbacks and foreshadowing as such at face value. But even though we know he had different plans initially and still makes changes on the fly and even said recently that he's laid the groundwork for a certain twist but isn't wedded to it yet. He'll make up his mind when it suits him. It doesn't matter when you come up with something. If it fits with past stuff it will work. The process does not invalidate the result.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 1:28:02 GMT -5
They came up with the idea 3 years ago when writing outlines for season 7-8. So anything before that means nothing. So that season 1,2,3 stuff is just wishful thinking. They wanted it to be Valyrian steel, not Jon, unexpected plot twist for the walking not talking plot device called the NK resolution. Nothing more, nothing less. And they already said this. And GrrM originally wanted a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion and for Catelyn to die north of the Wall and for Jaime to murder his way to being king while he was writing AGOT. It doesn't stop lines from the first book from being referred to later in the series. Now that might be retconning of a kind but until we got that outline letter to his editor we wouldn't have known that. We'd have taken his callbacks and foreshadowing as such at face value. But even though we know he had different plans initially and still makes changes on the fly and even said recently that he's laid the groundwork for a certain twist but isn't wedded to it yet. He'll make up his mind when it suits him. It doesn't matter when you come up with something. If it fits with past stuff it will work. The process does not invalidate the result. Never heard the Cat beyond the Wall bit, what was that one?
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Post by alcasinoroyale on May 2, 2019 1:36:26 GMT -5
And GrrM originally wanted a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion and for Catelyn to die north of the Wall and for Jaime to murder his way to being king while he was writing AGOT. It doesn't stop lines from the first book from being referred to later in the series. Now that might be retconning of a kind but until we got that outline letter to his editor we wouldn't have known that. We'd have taken his callbacks and foreshadowing as such at face value. But even though we know he had different plans initially and still makes changes on the fly and even said recently that he's laid the groundwork for a certain twist but isn't wedded to it yet. He'll make up his mind when it suits him. It doesn't matter when you come up with something. If it fits with past stuff it will work. The process does not invalidate the result. Never heard the Cat beyond the Wall bit, what was that one?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 1:38:13 GMT -5
Never heard the Cat beyond the Wall bit, what was that one? Is that from the original outline? Read through all that stuff when it surfaced but I’m surprised I forgot that part.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on May 2, 2019 1:42:59 GMT -5
Is that from the original outline? Read through all that stuff when it surfaced but I’m surprised I forgot that part. Yup it's from the original outline. Also crazy that it was written in 1993 and how much of it significantly changed.
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on May 2, 2019 1:55:47 GMT -5
To be clear
Foreshadowing is a literary device in which a writer gives an advance hint of what is to come later in the story. Foreshadowing often appears at the beginning of a story, or a chapter, and it helps the reader develop expectations about the upcoming events.
First 6 seasons of foreshadowing with the WW and everything they got from the source material. Not what they applied in season 7-8. They got the idea for Arya 3 years ago while doing outlines for 7 and 8. So whatever the plan was or if they even had a plan back then it changed . Season 7 is when they bring the dagger back, to give to Bran, to give to Arya, to shows she can do a drop exchange with it and remind us multiple times its Valyrian steel. Brie, Jon, and Gendry.
Why they came up with it? They wanted the ending of the poorly developed and shallow arc to be unexpected as everyone would be thinking Jon or at least almost everyone. They also knew they wanted it to be Valyrian steel.so the next logical choice for them was Arya.
probably felt that the final act will feature a lot of the two Valyrians so why not give Jon's arc to someone else. Just the former lord commander of the Nights Watch, who has been preparing for the others since season 1. Arya first heard about this? Did they even mention it too her in season 7? She didn't talk about it until Gendry I think. Not ever really part of her story until episode 801. Fully capable of doing it? Yes, it's Arya she even killed death. But not a resolution to her story, which by the way, they gutted that too. Nymeria, the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart. Frey vengence. She got it, but it was rather abrupt with little development. Hmmmm sound familiar.
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Post by konradsmith on May 2, 2019 1:56:40 GMT -5
Is that from the original outline? Read through all that stuff when it surfaced but I’m surprised I forgot that part. Yup it's from the original outline. Also crazy that it was written in 1993 and how much of it significantly changed. And the reason why the first three books came out in such quick succession was because they were intended to be one book. So while his work based on that outline grew and changed he chopped it up accordingly. This is reiterating old info but I thought it was worth mentioning when one considers how he changes his plans and reworked things and innovated and came up with plotlines other than he first meant to...and it wasn't a bad thing. If his early process was as scrutinized as the show's has been and as his current writing process is, there'd be many wise choices that would be called retcons. But they were ultimately beneficial to the story. Which is probably why when you're not open with people about your process and pass off happy accidents and last minute innovations as the fruits of grand schemes people will call you a genius. But if you tell them your methods and admit the factor luck plays, they'll harangue you.
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Post by breakfest on May 2, 2019 1:59:18 GMT -5
Season 2 Episode 10 - Valar MorghulisScene: ((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31RoHC15pM)) (skip to 8:15) Arya asks Jaqen what he is doing here (in Westeros). Jaqen answers, "waiting for you". Jaqen, as we know, worships the God of Death. There is some tie between Arya and the concept of death itself if she is significant enough that Jaqen would be there waiting for her. Only smiling when she says she is leaving back home for Winterfell in No One may also be tied to him knowing something about the bigger purpose that Arya eventually ends up fulfilling. Really interesting point about Jaqen just letting her leave the Faceless Men. I remember it being something of a confusing moment at the time, but it actually makes a lot more sense now if they had this in mind. Goes to show how this really did pay off a lot of stuff from throughout the show.
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Post by sercreighton on May 2, 2019 2:35:38 GMT -5
They came up with the idea 3 years ago when writing outlines for season 7-8. So anything before that means nothing. So that season 1,2,3 stuff is just wishful thinking. They wanted it to be Valyrian steel, not Jon, unexpected plot twist for the walking not talking plot device called the NK resolution. Nothing more, nothing less. And they already said this. And GrrM originally wanted a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion and for Catelyn to die north of the Wall and for Jaime to murder his way to being king while he was writing AGOT. It doesn't stop lines from the first book from being referred to later in the series. Now that might be retconning of a kind but until we got that outline letter to his editor we wouldn't have known that. We'd have taken his callbacks and foreshadowing as such at face value. But even though we know he had different plans initially and still makes changes on the fly and even said recently that he's laid the groundwork for a certain twist but isn't wedded to it yet. He'll make up his mind when it suits him. It doesn't matter when you come up with something. If it fits with past stuff it will work. The process does not invalidate the result. Retconning is not foreshadowing. A callback? Sure. But there is nothing to retcon, you retcon plot. Foreshadowing is a deliberate clue to the reader not the character about a future event that is never usually directly stated. Here is the problem, it wasn't foreshadowing when they did it, which means it couldn't have foreshadowed this. Retconning can't change that because it's a device not plot. Foreshadowing isn't part of the plot or story, it's a clue for the reader given by the writer. You break the 4th wall if you attempt to retcon it. Which they kind of did. The treatment was just that, there is actual source material in the form of the books. This source material was the heart of the show and what it is based off of, not the treatment. Maybe the argument could of been made it was always planned, except right after the episode the guys who wrote it said no we came up with it 3 years ago. That's why it's not foreshadowing they didn't deliberatly do it back then. This would be like hindsight retcon foreshadowing? Foreshadowing happens before the fact not after. If it happens after its not foreshadowing. There will be no foreshadowing after the fact. That's like pre crime after the crime has been committed. We didn't know it was going to happen but we knew it was going to happen. No just no. They were just callbacks man, that happen to look good with the current plot. It's a good line too, not today. Honestly the eyes thing was stupid cause it's not just blue eyes, it's all three. But not today is a good line. And no Martin wasn't foreshadowing this when he wrote it. That's another thing, D&D didn't write that. It's not there's, it's his and he would have to be the one foreshadowing this cause he's the one that wrote it.
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Post by konradsmith on May 2, 2019 3:04:38 GMT -5
NO what I'm saying is that GrrM fairly gets credit for building upon earlier plot points and passages written years before he knew how to expand on them and where they should go. AS HE SHOULD. But why D and D can't get credit for doing the exact same fucking thing is wildly beyond me. If something fits with your past text and works well and you build on that foundation it really doesn't and shouldn't matter when you came up with it. If something fits it fits.
I bring up these past examples from the books because they're the exact same thing. Subject to the exact same process of development. As GrrM, who is much more understanding of the adaptation process and the way tv works, has said many many times.
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