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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 14:59:19 GMT -5
Yes that's a beautiful piece of work! I have been a long time fan of Daenerys and through the years have seen all sorts of responses to her character. Some have puzzled me with thinking she's as crazy as her Father. Others were outlandish with ridicule for her "failures" and still others put her on a pedestal as a perfect Goddess who could do no wrong. I never thought of her as any of those things. To me Daenerys is a girl who struggles to do the right thing against immense odds and very little guidance. That somehow, even without the Targaryen house to guide her, she still managed to become a conqueror as much or more as her blood lineage ancestors but in her own right, with no help and her own wits. She's far from perfect and continues to hold onto stubborn ideals that cause her no end of troubles but which force her to grow and overcome along the way. I have also enjoyed the long journey she's been making with the singular goal of returning to Westeros as the rightful ruler because of the irony in that expectation. As we are learning from the show, everything in Westeros is quickly falling to pieces everywhere and by the time Daenerys actually reaches the shores of Westeros, there may not even be an Iron Throne for her to take or challenge. This forces the reader (or viewer) to examine the bigger picture, just as Jon Snow is experiencing in the North. It's not about the Night's Watch, or the Boltons, but something far worse. Daenerys does not know this yet and I look forward to seeing how she adapts and changes her ideals and thinking when the real enemy becomes apparent. In the end, Daenerys is a savior even more than she's a conqueror. I think she will do the right thing and join forces with the North to defeat the coming of winter and the White Walkers. This is one of the most apt taking on Daenerys that I have ever read and would never be able to write. I agree completely.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 14:59:41 GMT -5
Double post. Sorry
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 15:17:33 GMT -5
I so wish I believed she will survive. I don't how to interpret the show HotU vision any other way than foreshadowing her death beyond the Wall though. I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving. I absolutely agree with this interpretation. In regard of the HotU as it happened on the show I never seen it as foreshadowing for Daenerys's death, granted I may be biased. I always saw Daenerys's meeting with Drogo and Rhaego as a temptation, first she is tempted by the illusion of power, rapresented by the Throne, one of the two unbroken things in the scene. All around the Throne, Ice and destruction reign, she reaches for it and stop a inch away. She hears the Dragons's cry and that wakes her up and away from the illusion of power. She rejects it. She then steps in front of the Wall and another temptation is presented to her, the illusion of happiness. She almost yield to it but yet again the Dragons bring her back. She leaves Drogo and Rhaego, so if they were a rappresentation of death, I rather see that as Daenerys choosing to fight for life. In the end she finds herself chained by the warlords, he is basically offering her eternal rest and once again she refuses it. This time she is the one to call for her Dragons, not the other way around. She says Dracarys to death. She uses Fire against the Cold and she frees herself and the Dragons from all illusions. The HoTU collapses upon itself.
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2016 15:40:31 GMT -5
This is one of the most apt taking on Daenerys that I have ever read and would never be able to write. I agree completely. Why thank you! I do have rare moments of insight that manages to overrule my more opinionated impulsive side. Welcome to our group by the way, great to have you on board! The House of the Undying debate will likely rage on for as long as it remains unexplained and like art, may never be explained by the author himself. I like to think it's a philosophical sort of thing that can be interpreted many ways and not so literally.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 27, 2016 18:52:57 GMT -5
I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving. I absolutely agree with this interpretation. In regard of the HotU as it happened on the show I never seen it as foreshadowing for Daenerys's death, granted I may be biased. I always saw Daenerys's meeting with Drogo and Rhaego as a temptation, first she is tempted by the illusion of power, rapresented by the Throne, one of the two unbroken things in the scene. All around the Throne, Ice and destruction reign, she reaches for it and stop a inch away. She hears the Dragons's cry and that wakes her up and away from the illusion of power. She rejects it. She then steps in front of the Wall and another temptation is presented to her, the illusion of happiness. She almost yield to it but yet again the Dragons bring her back. She leaves Drogo and Rhaego, so if they were a rappresentation of death, I rather see that as Daenerys choosing to fight for life. In the end she finds herself chained by the warlords, he is basically offering her eternal rest and once again she refuses it. This time she is the one to call for her Dragons, not the other way around. She says Dracarys to death. She uses Fire against the Cold and she frees herself and the Dragons from all illusions. The HoTU collapses upon itself. This is really neat, thank you for sharing. I like how you phrase it, the illusion of power, the illusion of happiness/love, the illusion of comfort/rest. They are three temptations for the child of three. As I was reading your interpretation something popped into my head. This season we saw Dany walk away from Daario. As she is discussing this with Tyrion she says that Sa she said farewell to a man she thought she cared for she felt nothing. Her "love" for him had been a illusion. We are having a much more in depth discussion about the book HOTU at this thread, if you would like to join: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/118/house-undying
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 19:20:46 GMT -5
Awesome. I am about to start a re-read of Daenerys's chapters, will surely join the HotU thread.
Also thank you. I do think Darioo rapresents the illusion of love for Daenerys, both in the show and in the book. Pretty much like Meeren is her illusion for peace.
In the show HotU scene, the fact that she has three encounters really stood out to me, along with the fact that all she encountered appeared as something while being something else,
Thone/Drogo&Rhaego and Eternal rest. She rejects all temptations, which is why I really cannot see that scene as foreshadowing of her departure.
Also in the show, in the same storyline she experience the Illusion of Wealth, (Xaro's empty vault) and the Illusion of Loyalty (Doreea), however those scene are not connected to the HotU so I usually kept them off. Still interesting that she is still going through illusions (Daario) in season 6.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 19:24:53 GMT -5
This is one of the most apt taking on Daenerys that I have ever read and would never be able to write. I agree completely. Why thank you! I do have rare moments of insight that manages to overrule my more opinionated impulsive side. Welcome to our group by the way, great to have you on board! The House of the Undying debate will likely rage on for as long as it remains unexplained and like art, may never be explained by the author himself. I like to think it's a philosophical sort of thing that can be interpreted many ways and not so literally. I hope to read more insight from you, I am absolutely impulsive as well, especially when Daenerys is involved so I understand your plight. Thank you for welcoming me aboard. This seems such a nice and sane place. I share your view about the HotU remaining a riddle. An exceptionally well written, beautiful riddle. Art indeed.
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2016 19:31:02 GMT -5
Awesome. I am about to start a re-read of Daenerys's chapters, will surely join the HotU thread. Also thank you. I do think Darioo rapresents the illusion of love for Daenerys, both in the show and in the book. Pretty much like Meeren is her illusion for peace. In the show HotU scene, the fact that she has three encounters really stood out to me, along with the fact that all she encountered appeared as something while being something else, Thone/Drogo&Rhaego and Eternal rest. She rejects all temptations, which is why I really cannot see that scene as foreshadowing of her departure. Also in the show, in the same storyline she experience the Illusion of Wealth, (Xaro's empty vault) and the Illusion of Loyalty (Doreea), however those scene are not connected to the HotU so I usually kept them off. Still interesting that she is still going through illusions (Daario) in season 6. Illusions of something being not quite what we expect it to be is a theme I just explored with episode 1x03 in our re-watch project and I think it's a strong theme in a lot of Daenerys (and Jon) evolution. They navigate through various stages of their character evolution and their personal growth. As children grow and begin to become aware of the world being less magical and fantasy-like than their imaginations provided, so too is Daenerys growing. The illusions of the HotU seemed like tricks played on her mind and heart by the warlocks to try and keep her in her childhood fantasy. Her dragons being the only thing to keep her from falling prey. Dany has recently learned (on the show) that the feelings she thought she had for Daario were also an illusion. The same will probably happen in the book at least on some level. She's growing up and learning that passion and love and loyalty are all different things to different people. By the time Daenerys reaches Westeros, she will have gained a lot of wisdom for someone so young. "I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war."
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Post by moiaf on Jul 28, 2016 9:22:23 GMT -5
Awesome. I am about to start a re-read of Daenerys's chapters, will surely join the HotU thread. A few years back I organized a re-read project with some friends at w.org. It was pretty successful I would say and we had a lot of fun. You might want to check it out. Here is a link to the Re-reads resource page, you'll find the links to the re-read there: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132746-re-read-project-resource-page/I also headed a re-read discussing the parallels Daenerys shares with other characters/
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Post by moiaf on Jul 31, 2016 14:18:22 GMT -5
Hello sercreighton , well met! I have finally taken some time this morning to read through this wonderful thread. It's been on my bucket list for awhile now as I've wanted to join in some great discussion about Daenerys. I'm still unraveling that House of the Undying vision for her in my own mind. Comparing the book version to show version and all, it's still just as mysterious and curious. *Edit: I know this post is in the book section, but bear with me here a bit as I intend to turn my thoughts to that after pointing out some symbolism in general. As moiaf said, Dan and David do not get enough credit for their symbolism clues on the show and have even created their own unique bits separate from the books. I think folks are finally starting to get on board with it now that we've had those clever spirals inlaid as stone circles, horse corpse art, Dothraki horses circling Daenerys, and living human arms holding up Daenerys in her crowd surfing scene. Those are all show-specific and interesting parallels between life and death / fire and ice. The spiral is an ancient symbol that can be traced back to stone age times in our own world. It is a feminine symbol representing fertility, death and rebirth and regeneration.Quoting a great article on that here: bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/signs-and-portents-what-does-the-spiral-motif-mean/Sometimes their clues are very subtle on the show and other times as noted, they full on smack the audience in the face with it the same as Mr. Martin has done ... Most of my motivation for deciding to lead everyone (I have a dozen or so willing victims so far) through an epic re-watch of the show series is so I can pick apart each episode for those brilliant little hidden nuggets of symbolism and foreshadowing. But I have to try and employ some brevity (not a strong trait for me) as the premiere episode alone took me three separate parts to pick apart! I do intend episode 2 as only one post. I'm working on it! :work: But before I go on seeking answers from those of you here with deeper understanding into Daenerys symbolism, I need to ask: Is there a clear image anywhere of the blue rose in the throne room scene for her House of the Undying vision? For some reason I always thought that was left out of the vision. Comparing and contrasting between what we know from the books and what we're then presented with on the show version is great fun. I know some folks prefer sticking only to one or the other in a neat and tidy fashion, as it can get quite confusing when mushing the two together. But unraveling a ball of yarn is only fun once it's a big pile on the floor to roll around in is my take on it. Hi, I got back in less than a week... Sort of. Moiaf told me about the rewatch but I had not seen any times for it or when it would be discussed. I don't really get caught up in book only and show only, as I consider both to be relevant to each other, I just try not to break rules when I can. As Ran once told me, I don't know if you know Ran, but as Ran once told me I have more warning points than anyone else has ever had on his forum. My findings with D&D simply lead me to the conclusion that they can't always do things the exact way they were done in the books for obvious reasons, and as Martin points out D&D generally cut to the chase more than he does but are following the same basic outline. More than anything they let his work and style inspire their own work and style which is why they do a lot of what they do. Like the blue rose, they could never fully work in the house of the Undying from the books, it is one of the largest Jon conformations in the R+L theory and even on the show a blue rose growing out of the wall would of created to many questions as it is obvious symbolism as opposed to some stain glass windows. So I just finished that essay and I liked it, though there were some of what I would consider misguided assumptions. With Martin I find it is better to take what is given and assume as little as possible. Dany as the Night's Queen? Possible, but how probable? I think that is what the Night's King would like, and I think Danny flint was probably the last Night's Queen, or at the very least a clue about her. Though her name, the Night Fort, and the symbolism of Widows watch lay the ground work for some interesting symbolism. The Mormont fist was very interesting to me, as the symbolism in the field may lead a fan to recall that lovely bit other life model sculpting? And so you have Mormont on a fist and Mormont making a fist. But it is what is within the fist that is the tell, that is Dany's ring, was it a wedding Ring? I don't know, but it was the stone that should be paid attention to there. It's pearl, placed as possible egg or moon which also acted as an egg. In the books the pearl is symbolic of a child or children in Dance Dany wears a dress covered in pearls because she is mother to so many. And of course you have the story of the Lion and Maiden and their Child who road around in a giant pearl. In a sense you can see a connection to Jon in Mormonts hand, both a Dragon egg, and the symbolism of the child. Me and Moiaf once talked about those spirals awhile back, so do a post named Bear Queen who vanished from the face of the earth. I don't remember what it was exactly but BQ wrote about them and Dany at Yunkai, while the symbolism is feminine, the spiral has many meanings and it may be all of them. I try to avoid the math references with Martins work, it's not that I think they are wrong it's just trying to debate a Golden spiral with someone who has no idea what it is and that is a lot of people can be confusing. I think adding storm patterns to the the symbolism may be of some help, as the patterns contain a pole a radius and an azimuth. As the show associates both Dany and the Night's King with storms as well. And storms are tied to water which is very important. As usual the symbolism is inverted, life and death, hot and cold, ice and fire. Location is also significant here, one is in the west and North, the other in the south and east, thus truly representing natural polarities. Now the symbol itself is not only tied to women, but also some gods like Vishnu the Hindu god King. Vishnu is symbolic of of the sky, water, and Kings, he is also blue. Though in Martins world he is a giant tool in the form of the Night's King. Why? Because he is Martin. In the books Euron is sort of like this combination of Dany and the Night's King, especially if you read the sample chapters, while he behaves like the Night's King, his symbolism is attaching him to Valyria and he too dreams of a Queen "the only one worthy of him." He like Jon, the Night's King and Daario is also a Crow. Three of these men are black crows which is one of the colors tied to Dany, like he dragon and her throne. While the other is tied more to winter, the White Raven, the opposing piece. I think Euron will play out as a second act finally player and that Jon will take up in his place, though Jon's nature is more like Dany's he still is symbolic of the cross between ice and fire, and he fills in well enough for a king role and clearly we have Valyrian symbolism. That is really all I would add to that essay. There is the Night's queen and the possibility of the Night's Queen role with Dany, but in the story roles are created from choices and that is an alternate possibility for Dany. I think that is Martin's spin on the Night's King, he is seeking Dany that's his purpose in the story. I think that is the love triangle Martin once mentioned. Though I feel the symbolism leads me to Jon, as the Night's Kings nature is malevolent much like Euron's. I also tend to think Dany's birth is what woke him, hence the storm. These don't tend to be regularly discussed topics. I find many fans are much happier writing their own story and then getting mad at Martin or D&D when it did not turn out the way they wanted. The clues are their, it's a bit of a puzzle but I feel once the symbolism is understood the story itself id unlocked as both the show and the books have been very consistent with their symbolism. Understanding the symbolism and literary devices is not that hard, my own belief is that within the parallels the symbolism exists with the 3 act structure and the same act is essentially repeating with reoccurring themes. Always a horned lord, always a dragon, always three parts, and the symbolism in the parallels is always inverted. Robert, the horned lord of act 1, a blue eyed king with an army of winter and an army of water and an army of the moon and storm. After all Robert the Horned lord was a storm lord, a blue eyed king. Stannis is no different, and FAegon is that sub for Rhaegar with the obvious connections. That's all second act, the third and final act has another Blue eyed King/ Horned Lord/ Storm Lord, with an army of winter, moon and water. 3 Kings, three similar paths, and similar symbolism, but the last king is the real deal, that's the magic, that's the true power and threat. Lyanna was the rose of the first act, while I think Sansa may be the rose of the second, though it could be Marg or even Loras. And of course Jon is the rose of the final act. While some of the roles are moved around, the symbolism remains. I think where Lyanna had a choice in the first act, Dany has the choice in the 3rd. Now you got this to choose from i.imgur.com/uA4zk7u.jpgWait sorry, I got confused, I meant this images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/91873/nights-king-jpg.jpg?w=600Oh boy, that's ummm yeah, ever girls dream. Or this cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6aakD0Yc5LfNkX_7pARN5QnKXy8=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2989328/kit_harington3.0.jpgNow I know what your thinking, blue cause you know so appealing. But I am going to go out on a limb and pick the underdog Jon Snow. But don't get used to this idea 66.media.tumblr.com/25735797d35fea94599b46020538e0e7/tumblr_oa1syejISe1tzojdco2_1280.jpgCause you know the other guy is blue, and as you can see from this totally unshow related pic she likes blue. www.ew.com/sites/default/files/styles/tout_image_gallery_612/public/i/2013/03/13/game-of-thrones-dany-laughing.jpg?itok=UsO9Zss1 I miss BearQueen87 too, I use to talk to her on tumblr but she stopped posting there too. She still has her blog though punkbunny87.blogspot.com/ . I think she just got really fed up with the fandom, which I don't blame her. Sometimes I feel I like that too. RE: The Night's Queen I don't think we'll get one, but, I do think we'll see a version of her. In the Aeron chapter that was publish we get this interesting bit: "Beside him [Euron} stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. " I have no clue who this is , but this sounds very ominous.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 31, 2016 21:18:46 GMT -5
Maybe it's a blueberry, yeah, maybe the Targaryens were all about blueberry's they are loaded with antioxidants. Blueberries ain't blue! Playing the Carlin card, damn it, there is no counter to that. This just in weather forecast for the long night. Dark and cold. I have to say if Jon is in fact the only hero in Martins universe, Martin aimed very low and settled for very little. Oh that was mean, but come on book Jon is no where near as epic as show Jon. Show Jon is all like I am going to Hardhome. Book Jon had a debate between going to Hardhome and taking a Nap and the nap won. Show Jon was like I am going to Craster so I can kill some MoFoes, Book Jon was like I think I will have another glass of mulled wine. Book Jon drinks mulled wine. He is one step from being in a hot tub with a women named Clarissa referring to themselves as the lovers and eating spiced lamb shanks. The guy had to major negotiations, and they were not even put in the books, just a minor recap of each. In both cases it was you will do what I want and give me whatever I want, and the other sides were like okay. Those must of been some epic negotiations he must of been like Ari Gold in Entourage. He started off so well to, he was killing a Wight, he was going North, he was running around with Halfhand, he had his magic sword. Which in the books has managed to kill two Brothers of the Watch and a couple of Wildlings. Sam aka hero support, has killed an Other, a big ass Wight with his bare hands, was at the fist, rescued Gilly and the little Monster, done all the research on the Others. got Jon elected, got in a bar room brawl, helped fight off pirates at sea, sent Marwyn to help Dany, and found both Bran and Aria. Jon was busy negotiating contracts for free stuff, looking at Val and going, I think I'll just look, and sending guys on suicide missions while he napped and drank mulled wine. Can we just step it up a little with him already? Oh he arranged a marriage and read a letter too. Ok I am done, I am done, just my usual rant on book Jon, because he is not frustrating at all. Okay here we go Jon is going to do some of that deep hero shi... Mulled wine again? Really?
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 1, 2016 15:54:03 GMT -5
I miss BearQueen87 too, I use to talk to her on tumblr but she stopped posting there too. She still has her blog though punkbunny87.blogspot.com/ . I think she just got really fed up with the fandom, which I don't blame her. Sometimes I feel I like that too. RE: The Night's Queen I don't think we'll get one, but, I do think we'll see a version of her. In the Aeron chapter that was publish we get this interesting bit: "Beside him [Euron} stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. "
I have no clue who this is , but this sounds very ominous. It's my mom, I had a rough Childhood, hugs were extremely painful. Actually had a sort of conversation with Ran about this. Ran had this idea that Euron was a Greenseer though untrained and unknowing. I suggested he may be a Green dreamer he has no real ability to control his power like Bran but he has the dreams and he uses the shade of the evening to augment that power. He dreamt he could fly, like Dany and Bran as a child. Think about this what would Martin do if he had a character who as a child who was kind of like Cersei, in that they had major issues to begin with. A sociopath, who was a green dreamer but did not know what a green dreamer was. And the Visions they had started as visions of the Night's King. He does not know he is seeing the Night's King, he thinks he is seeing future him. And I don't mean the Night's King just as the Night's King but back when he was human. And something tells me he was a very cruel bad person. He wants to be a god among men, his throne surrounded by symbols of dead religions, he sees himself as this god, and there beside him he sees the Night's Kings desire which he thinks is his desire, the Night's Queen. H e refers to Dany as being worthy of him.How confusing would visions of the Night's King be to a child? He feeds the a Warlock to a Warlock. He is practicing cannibalism, one of the great taboos tied to Night's Fort. He practices slavery, his ship the silence, his crew without voices. His red eye. Symbolically he is an inverse to the Night's King, but I think he is mimicking him except with a Valyrian theme. Because he is seeing the Night's Kings current desire, Dany. I don't think he has seen the transformed Night's King, but rather the man he was before that and he only gets glimpses of this very cruel and more than likely mad person. Maybe the Night's King molesting and raping, eating people, killing other religions off, his desire to be a god, sacrificing to the Others, he is probably seeing all kinds of crazy shit, and is interpreting except he interprets like Mel except worse. Imagine if you were a young sociopath and this was your childhood influence, not good. Everything kind of indicates he is seeing things related to the Night's King and Dany. Who knows he may even have been inside the guys head. Dude thinks he is the storm, he thinks he is going to fly, he is obsessed with Targaryens and Valyrians, the Horn, the armor, the dragons and he thinks it is all meant for him because he probably saw it in a vision and he thinks his dreams come true. He is going to have a rude awakening, the image of the woman is more symbolic that it is literal. I think it really represents a desire of something that once was or a vision that the NK had. I think the the Night's Queen is long dead, though that don't mean uncle creepy doesn't want or think Dany will be his corpse bride, and not like the cute movie Bride. Oh he is probably making all kinds of plans, "Oh were going to have a baby buffet at the Wedding, and will have an ice dragon pulled carriage, and will feed the Starks to the Starks and eat frozen puppies and kittens as an appetizer platter and will mate with animals. It's going to be real classy, like the Kardashians, or Amber Rose but with Ice. Oh he is so excited, because Danny Flint was named Danny and Dany is named Dany and it's just eeeeeeek total love connection. Dudes probably running around in his frozen tutu spanking himself with his big frozen paddle while singing It must have been love by friggin Roxette. And Euron? Euron is going to be a hot mess. Look, look Dany, I got Valyrian armor, and a Valyrian sword, I am totally a Valyrian just like you and like grrrrrr Fire and Blood and stuff. Oh and look at my house Targaryen bobble head collection. Oh and look at my Emilia Clarke autographed T-Shirt, it's from Terminator and says come with me if you want to live but it still counts right? Oh look this is my official Daenerys Targaryen pillow, it used to be my David Cassidy pillow but I stitched your face over his, see you can still see his feathered hair behind yours, "Come on get happy" haha. So like I am totally not a stalker or anything but I think even though we have never met we are totally meant to be together. Like we both like purple, and ummm cheese and oh slaves I love slaves, can't get enough of them. Oh and this is my Daenerys Stormborn life size blow up doll, I use her for practice so you know I'll be a good husband, say high Blowie Targaryen, "High Dany, Euron is the best you will be so happy with him." See Dany it's kismet. Yeah those two are going to go over real big with her. Euron reminds me a lot of Aerion Targaryen, and seems to run a parallel to him in some ways. A second son of 4 brothers, the madness, Euron may actually die drinking something like shade or poison. But that is who he reminds me of. He even wants to be a Dragon like Aerion.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 1, 2016 17:35:42 GMT -5
I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving. I absolutely agree with this interpretation. In regard of the HotU as it happened on the show I never seen it as foreshadowing for Daenerys's death, granted I may be biased. I always saw Daenerys's meeting with Drogo and Rhaego as a temptation, first she is tempted by the illusion of power, rapresented by the Throne, one of the two unbroken things in the scene. All around the Throne, Ice and destruction reign, she reaches for it and stop a inch away. She hears the Dragons's cry and that wakes her up and away from the illusion of power. She rejects it. She then steps in front of the Wall and another temptation is presented to her, the illusion of happiness. She almost yield to it but yet again the Dragons bring her back. She leaves Drogo and Rhaego, so if they were a rappresentation of death, I rather see that as Daenerys choosing to fight for life. In the end she finds herself chained by the warlords, he is basically offering her eternal rest and once again she refuses it. This time she is the one to call for her Dragons, not the other way around. She says Dracarys to death. She uses Fire against the Cold and she frees herself and the Dragons from all illusions. The HoTU collapses upon itself. We were talking about interpretation of the show HOTU and this appeared on my tumblr roll. I think the guy on the video might be an Unsullied. He has a very interesting interpretation of the show HOTU. Some of his observations are interesting, like Cersei and KL must fall before the Wall falls. Envie I tag you because you were also in the discussion. ETA: I was thinking about the snow in the throne room, maybe it's not so much that Jon will be king of Westeros, we he probably won't be by the time Dany gets to King's Landing and I don't think she'll know about his heritage before she meets him. But maybe it's about the fact that Jon IS a king, by that time and Dany chooses not to challenge his right to be King in the North (there might be multiple meeting to the scene such as Dany turning her back on the GoT to go fight the real war). So, if Dany chooses not to challenge his claim to that crown, when they meet it'll be as equals. Just a thought.
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Post by Envie on Aug 1, 2016 19:00:15 GMT -5
moiaf: I watched his video - a nice easy to understand interpretation, I liked it! I especially liked his take on why they decided to put the tent with Drogo and baby Rhaego in the snow by the wall part of her vision and how that might be a representation of her saying a final farewell to her first love and turning to embrace the next, which just so happens to be at the wall during that vision. It's a nice bit of symbolic imagery if it's true Jon and Dany get together romantically. Daenerys had to let go of her previous love first. As for the throne room and snow, I am of the mind it's more symbolic of winter than it really is a symbolic nod to Jon Snow. It could be both, but honestly I think it was an ironic moment and the same irony I think Dany will learn when she lands in Westeros. All those years of planning and wishing to take the Iron Throne are meaningless because either A) Cersei has burned the place to the ground, or B) The White Walkers are coming and winter makes it pointless to claim the iron throne anyways. Or again, maybe it's both! Daenerys will learn that her true purpose isn't to sit on the iron throne but to do what she does best... save innocent people from destruction. Symbolically, if you think about it, the white walkers turning people into mindless wights is also a form of slavery and we know Dany is the breaker of chains.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 2, 2016 6:44:35 GMT -5
moiaf : I watched his video - a nice easy to understand interpretation, I liked it! I especially liked his take on why they decided to put the tent with Drogo and baby Rhaego in the snow by the wall part of her vision and how that might be a representation of her saying a final farewell to her first love and turning to embrace the next, which just so happens to be at the wall during that vision. It's a nice bit of symbolic imagery if it's true Jon and Dany get together romantically. Daenerys had to let go of her previous love first. Agree, I mean whether is romantic or familiar her relationship with Jon is suppose to be a happy one, I think. His interpretation, reminded me of Dany's HOTU vision: " A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness." When a flower grows from in a tough environment it is usually representative of hope (like a rose growing from concrete). Filling the air with sweetness denotes happiness. Anywho, I though that the vlogers interpretation matched well with the book HOTU vision. Oh, I've been discussing the fact the the Others are Slavers of the Dead for some while with sercreighton I'm actually working on an essay which discusses this briefly. Basically, I think that GRRM has been preparing Dany symbolically to face the Others. It started with the fevered dream that helped her hatch the dragons, then her encounter with the Undying (which seems to me a very obvious representation of the Others, down to the rotting heart that is keeping them alive (i.e. The Hear of Winter), then her fight against the slavers, and finally her battle against Euron, who's like the human version of the Others. Regarding the throne room, I'm sure it has a couple of meaning but yeah, the important one is that Dany realizes that's not where she is suppose to be, he fight is up North, against the Others.
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