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Post by moiaf on Jul 4, 2016 18:07:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 18:58:37 GMT -5
I've seen him mention it before, but it's nice to have for the "but Jon is ice and fire" crowd.
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Post by Envie on Jul 5, 2016 9:52:45 GMT -5
I've seen him mention it before, but it's nice to have for the "but Jon is ice and fire" crowd. I do think Jon is Ice and Fire, but he's not the only one in the equation (Daenerys is the fire to his ice) and I also do not think he's the final/ultimate hero. That would be too contrived and not the way GRRM writes.
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Post by dje on Jul 9, 2016 19:57:01 GMT -5
Agreed Envie, I think that Jon is the culmination of Ice and Fire, but individually, Dany represents Fire and Jon Ice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 15:36:09 GMT -5
There is nothing "fire" about Jon though, except who his biological father was. He's ice through and through.
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Post by Envie on Jul 10, 2016 15:51:33 GMT -5
There is nothing "fire" about Jon though, except who his biological father was. He's ice through and through. Right. Symbolically he's Ice to Daenerys' Fire, but genetically he's Ice and Fire together.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 10, 2016 16:32:13 GMT -5
There is nothing "fire" about Jon though, except who his biological father was. He's ice through and through. Right. Symbolically he's Ice to Daenerys' Fire, but genetically he's Ice and Fire together. Jon is Dany's counterpart so I see him more like the Yang to her Yin (like you avi). He might discover a more fiery side to himself after his resurrection but I think he's always going to lean more the icier side, like I think in the end he'll choose to remain a Snow. Nonetheless his partnership with Dany in this respect is about balancing each other, me thinks.
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khaella
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Post by khaella on Jul 14, 2016 16:41:27 GMT -5
I enjoy looking for all of the different themes of ice and fire throughout the series. Even Bloodraven is ice and fire, which is very interesting when you think about it. I have a list somewhere, hidden in the depths of my notes, about everything that represents the ice and fire theme. If I can ever find it I will post it
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 14, 2016 17:04:51 GMT -5
What if there is an actual song? We've all seen the speculation that the end will be with someone reading Samwell's account of history sometime in the future....what if there is a song too? The song would be the 'airbrushed version'....like the songs that Sansa loves so much. We keep hearing her inner monologue that life isn't like the songs.
Tolkien filled his pages with all sorts of songs, but we've seen very few from GRRM...and most of those are just scraps.
In the House of the Undying, Dany saw Rhaegar say 'he has a song...the song of ice and fire'....I don't know...it just makes sense that there is an actual song about this story.
The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire GRRM may have already written this song and the books are the truthful backstory to something that harpers sing and maidens cry over.
Rhaegar sung a song a few times that was responsible for bringing Lyanna and even Cersei to tears. We know that the Ghost of High Heart loves the song about Jenny of Oldstones. I'm not saying that either of these are the song, just that GRRM has made a point that songs are important to his world.
Does anyone else think we might see a song at the end of this?
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Post by moiaf on Jul 14, 2016 17:21:24 GMT -5
I enjoy looking for all of the different themes of ice and fire throughout the series. Even Bloodraven is ice and fire, which is very interesting when you think about it. I have a list somewhere, hidden in the depths of my notes, about everything that represents the ice and fire theme. If I can ever find it I will post it GRRM was definitely talking about the main meaning of the series but yeah, there are definitely ice and fire elements everyone. it's really interesting. I had noted also the Bloodraven is ice and fire being a Blackwood. Dany herself has a little ice in her as her great-grandmother was a Blackwood, and there were no outside marriages after that (two brother and sister marriages in a row). Jon is ice and fire, although, he's definitely more ice. The Starks and the Targaryens, North and South. There is all kinds of stuff like that. If you do find your list please post it. What if there is an actual song? We've all seen the speculation that the end will be with someone reading Samwell's account of history sometime in the future....what if there is a song too? The song would be the 'airbrushed version'....like the songs that Sansa loves so much. We keep hearing her inner monologue that life isn't like the songs. Tolkien filled his pages with all sorts of songs, but we've seen very few from GRRM...and most of those are just scraps. In the House of the Undying, Dany saw Rhaegar say 'he has a song...the song of ice and fire'....I don't know...it just makes sense that there is an actual song about this story. The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire GRRM may have already written this song and the books are the truthful backstory to something that harpers sing and maidens cry over. Rhaegar sung a song a few times that was responsible for bringing Lyanna and even Cersei to tears. We know that the Ghost of High Heart loves the song about Jenny of Oldstones. I'm not saying that either of these are the song, just that GRRM has made a point that songs are important to his world. Does anyone else think we might see a song at the end of this? There might be a song, although, I'm not sure if we'll hear it. The song might be part of the prophecy so there might be spoilers in the lyrics. We might hear it towards the end of the series, if we do.
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Post by khaella on Jul 14, 2016 17:40:04 GMT -5
Balerion's Whiskers, I would think that Rhaegar would have made a song. Didn't he make up the song Jenny of Oldstones for the Ghost of High Heart? It would make sense for him to come up with an actual song for the prophecy. Though I agree with @moiaf, that we wouldn't hear until the end (if ever) since it would give too much away.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 14, 2016 18:13:30 GMT -5
There might be a song, although, I'm not sure if we'll hear it. The song might be part of the prophecy so there might be spoilers in the lyrics. We might hear it towards the end of the series, if we do. I figure if there is one, it will be the last thing George gives us...Epilogue...
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Post by lojzelote on Jul 15, 2016 11:09:29 GMT -5
I may be too close-minded about this, but personally I think the "song" in "A Song of Ice and Fire" is only a more poetic way of saying "story". GRRM used "song" very often when naming his stories. For example, there's a short story of his called "A Song of Lya", where the word has no special significance; it's a tale about the fate of a woman named Lya. Similarly, Songs the Dead Men Sing isn't about a choir of zombies. IMHO what Rhaegar meant that Aegon will "write" his own life story. (Sadly, it ended up written by Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane. ) There was a prophecy, but if it had the form of song or even mentioned ice or fire... Frankly, were I GRRM I'd leave it vague for fear I may not deliver. Actually it's something what I really like about the title. There is the obvious "magical" explanation for it, but also the more mundane one which basically makes it into "a story of human passions", since he himself said that Robert Burns' famous poem "Fire and Ice" inspired him to name the series. Also, it fits very well his old, well-known remark that human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about... fire and ice, two opposing forces clashing. On a lighter note, I always find it funny when people use Littlefinger's "Life is not a song" to support their arguments. The title of the series they are reading is literally called A Song of Ice and Fire. Someone hasn't been paying attention. But more on the topic, the way things stand right now, I totally see Dany as Fire and Jon as Ice. I don't care who their ancestors are, symbolically they are clearly connected to these two different forces and have little relationship to the other. Though as the time goes on, I could imagine them going more Yin and Yang - as in, there is a spark of fire somewhere in Jon and there is a snowlake of ice somewhere in Dany. Bloodraven I see far more as equally Ice and Fire since he appears to be in touch with both sides of his heritage (I believe this is very important for this sort of cathegorising) and right now he's in the team of "green" guys who stand for nature, for which ice and fire are both important (ie, "Land is one" to use Jojen's words.) As I noted above, I think that how characters identify matters a great deal. Which is why I disagree with the notion that Jon is equally ice and fire. He can't be, because his whole identity is centered around being a Stark bastard. In the future, he may become curious about his other side of family, but I can't imagine that he will ever see Rhaegar as his "true" father (honestly, he wouldn't have much to relate to; Jon isn't exactly into musical instrumetns and dusty old books), that the Stark children will stop being his siblings or the North his fatherland after spending his most formative years there. I'm sure in his heart of hearts he will remain Stark-like. The same goes for Dany; I think it is possible she will become interested in the First Men traditions after she learns about Black Betha and/or Jon, but I can't honestly see her as any sort of "balance". Her identity has been since the beginning that of the heiress of Aegon the Conqueror, blood of the dragon.
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Post by lojzelote on Jul 15, 2016 11:32:52 GMT -5
One more thing, back in 2011 or 2012 I had been browsing through Tower of the Hand website and there I had found a very interesting video with GRRM where he talks about the names of his characters. There is various stuff about how he wanted to imitate the naming traditions of real royal families (hence so many Aegons and Brandons), about how some nobles name their kids after royalty, etc.
But what may be interesting for the purposes of this discussion is that he talked about how names are fundamnetal parts of his characters. He said that one of his fellow authors (I believe it was Lisa Tuttle) writes first the story, calling her characters CharA, CharB etc., and only fills in the gaps later. He claimed he could never do it, because the name is important to him in regards to who the character is.
If you compare "Daenerys Targaryen" and "Jon Snow" with this in mind, they come across as opposites, don't they? The former is long, exotic, and we soon learn to equate it with fire. The latter is short, sounds familiar, and relates to ice. I believe he himself brought them up as sort of opposites, though my memory is a bit foggy on this part. I may look for the video if I am bored enough one day...
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 15, 2016 12:17:33 GMT -5
For example, there's a short story of his called "A Song of Lya", where the word has no special significance; it's a tale about the fate of a woman named Lya. Similarly, Songs the Dead Men Sing isn't about a choir of zombies. You're right...I completely forgot about those. But more on the topic, the way things stand right now, I totally see Dany as Fire and Jon as Ice. I don't care who their ancestors are, symbolically they are clearly connected to these two different forces and have little relationship to the other. I agree 100% on this. Even without their ancestral blood...one is fire and the other is ice.
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