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Post by blisscraft on Jul 19, 2016 8:48:01 GMT -5
Khaella - Really great work about sapphires in the text. I misunderstood what was meant by your original sentence that you have explained now so eloquently and with such wonderful detail. Thank you. I do think it is funny that Martin uses sapphires in such circumstances. The sapphire is the birthstone for September, Martin's birthday month. mioaf - It's a funny thing how Martin uses all of these opposites like fire and ice. It reminds me of Shelley's Ode to the West Wind. (Sorry if I am using an unfamiliar reference here. I grew up in an age when rote memorization of poetry was de rigueur in education). Here is a small quote from Shelley's beautiful poem: Wild Spirit, which art moving everywhere; Destroyer and preserver; hear, Oh, hear! The juxtaposition of opposites is as much of an obsession in Romantic poetry as it seems to be in Martin's work. Someone could write a PhD thesis on this aspect of Martin writing. (This may explain why Martin uses the traditional associations with sapphires in such a way, turning the old perceptions over and revealing the opposite side. He is a "revolutionary"). izzue - Can't wait to read your post about "natural magic."
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Post by khaella on Jul 21, 2016 16:52:46 GMT -5
izzue , Thank you I have been wondering the same thing about Sapphire Isle, but I haven't gotten very deep into that, but I'm betting that there is something going on there. I am also looking forward to reading your natural magic thread. Please let me know when you have it done! blisscraft , Thank you That is true that sapphires are GRRM's birthstones, I hadn't thought about that. Interesting.
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Post by izzue on Jul 21, 2016 21:40:04 GMT -5
izzue , Thank you I have been wondering the same thing about Sapphire Isle, but I haven't gotten very deep into that, but I'm betting that there is something going on there. I am also looking forward to reading your natural magic thread. Please let me know when you have it done! khaella, every time I try to sit down and start on that, some other interruption comes up! It's not a lot, but it's based on the same Vasalisa story blisscraft wrote about, in an amazing book written by a Jungian analyst. The book was 20 years in the making, and is a treasure house of wisdom. Maybe this weekend... :work:
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Post by blisscraft on Jul 22, 2016 8:32:07 GMT -5
izzue - So excited that you are familiar with Von Franz's work. I can't wait for your insights. Also, I apologize to any and everyone for my use of poetry above. I was reminded the other day while watching the movie, The Big Short, that "The truth is like poetry. . . . And people f**king hate poetry." I will sincerely try to restrain myself from any more poetic references, but I can't promise I never will. However, I will do my best not to lapse again.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 22, 2016 8:51:45 GMT -5
izzue - So excited that you are familiar with Von Franz's work. I can't wait for your insights. Also, I apologize to any and everyone for my use of poetry above. I was reminded the other day while watching the movie, The Big Short, that "The truth is like poetry. . . . And people f**king hate poetry." I will sincerely try to restrain myself from any more poetic references, but I can't promise I never will. However, I will do my best not to lapse again. Don't apologize, I love poetry. In any event if that's the way you want to express yourself or to draw parallels between the story and other elements of literature then it's completely valid. It helps to look at other works and authors to gain perspective.
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Post by khaella on Jul 22, 2016 10:26:39 GMT -5
blisscraft, I agree with @moiaf, Don't apologize for using poetry! izzue, I look forward to it! I know what you mean, I've been trying to work on a few things but I keep getting distracted. Sometimes I wonder if I sabotage myself lol.
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Post by izzue on Jul 23, 2016 19:36:09 GMT -5
moiaf - The Nature of Magic - This is such a tricky thing. I find your question "Could it be perhaps that she sees the birth of her dragons as her conquering over the magic that was done against her?" Wow! How insightful this is! Your question took me to Von Franz'z book, The Feminine in Fairy Tales. In her discussion of the story of Vasilisa, the Beautiful, Von Franz notes that institutionalized magic, something that has been "codified" by rote learning and/or "book learned" is powerless against natural, instinctual magic, as represented by an animal friend, a horse, in the fairy tale. Dany, like Vasilisa, has a need to enter the HOTU and brings her animal friend, Drogon with her. This is significant because Drogon embodies the power of the instinctual magic over something that MMD undoubtedly had to learn by rote, or the institutional magic represented by the HOTU. Dany with Drogon ultimately destroys the HOTU because their natural magic is "living wisdom." It does not belong to the past or future, but is eternally present; it doesn't age or decay. This leads to the idea of rotten inside and out. This dried decaying place with its dried and decaying inhabitants reveals the sterility of their institutional power. It is all about its past and is striving for a revitalized future through the use of Dany and Drogon. Martin skillfully employs this rotten and decaying institution in juxtaposition with its name, The House of the Undying. They may never die, but there is little life left in them because of their obsession with the past and desire for a future. Such insightful analyses - I'm loving this thread! I had wanted to go back to blisscraft's introduction of magic and the Vasalisa story in Von Franzz's book. For the second time, I'm in a study group for Dr. Pinkola-Estes's amazing book Women Who Run With the Wolves. As a Jungian Analyst, her work is necessarily based on myths, stories, and fairly tales, the core of which is that ancient, instinctive, natural, innate wisdom that is tantamount to natural magic. The wolf is the animal she uses for the wild woman archetype, the symbol of that enduring natural power that manifests as magical power in the tales. I love the title Von Franzz uses, blisscraft, "Vasalisa the Beautiful". In Pinkola-Estes's book, the tale is called "The Doll in Her Pocket: Vasalisa the Wise". In this story it is the doll given her by her dying mother who embodies the natural magic. Vasalisa is told to keep the doll with her always, to tell no one about her, to feed her when she is hungry, and that should she lose her way or be in need of help, she was to ask the doll what to do, and she would be assisted. Vasalisa's father remarries, enter the evil stepmother who torments Vasalisa, then sends her out into the dangerous forest to face the fearsome hag Baba Yaga, who will surely kill her and eat her. The little doll guides Vasalisa from the very beginning, as Dany begins to be guided by ancient, instinctual, supernatural wisdom from the moment she was cast out into "the frightening woods" to marry a Khal. Vasalisa becomes strong and wise in her journey by listening to the doll, as Dany discovers and begins listening to that intuitive, ancient wisdom which prompts her to place her dragon eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre and enter into the fire herself. Nonetheless, Vasalisa would not have made it out of Baba Yaga's house, nor Dany out of the HOTU, without the embodiment of natural magic gained along the way.
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Post by khaella on Jul 24, 2016 9:48:01 GMT -5
This stuff is really good! I need to read these books. I know that fairy tale and I remember reading it when I was younger but I haven't heard of these other books. Thanks for all of this you guys, it's so interesting EDIT: So I looked up Clarissa Pinkola-Estes, and of COURSE she is a genius, she and I share a birthday only separated by 39 years
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Post by blisscraft on Jul 25, 2016 8:40:54 GMT -5
Thank you, izzue, for explaining Von Franz so well. I am also a fan of Dr. Pinkola-Estes, although it has been years since I have read her book, "Women Who Run with the Wolves." I do vividly remember the first time I saw her book in a store. It seemed to vibrate and my stomach clenched, and so, I had to buy it.
The same could not be said for Von Franz. I resisted her books for years, mostly out of a real ignorance of fairy tales (and some tedious childhood issues which have no bearing on this conversation). I didn't know how important they are. I came to her finally because I was interested in perceptions of evil. This desire to know more about why people perceive one thing as evil and another as not, came from my time in Westeros. I won't go into too much detail about that either except to say that the one character many there associated with evil was, and still perhaps is, is Dany. It never occurred to me that Dany ever could be evil.
I will have to come back to some other thoughts about evil later.
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Post by izzue on Jul 25, 2016 12:27:21 GMT -5
So I looked up Clarissa Pinkola-Estes, and of COURSE she is a genius, she and I share a birthday only separated by 39 years Of course! This desire to know more about why people perceive one thing as evil and another as not, came from my time in Westeros. I won't go into too much detail about that either except to say that the one character many there associated with evil was, and still perhaps is, is Dany. It never occurred to me that Dany ever could be evil. I will have to come back to some other thoughts about evil later. I love having these essay threads because there is so much in Martin's work that is deep, foundational -- and none of it is entirely straightforward. The only drawback is that there is so much, and in combination with 'real life', hard to find the time to delve into it all. But I think that is precisely what draws me to Martin, the vastness, the ultimate truths and perceptions. And in the HOTU, I think the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are interwoven so skillfully! I hope we'll all keep coming back to this thread as time permits...it's definitely not one where it's easy to pop in with a casual comment, but I love the chance to go back and back over this material which portends so much in this world of Ice and Fire, and love getting the insights from all of you on it.
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Post by blisscraft on Jul 26, 2016 9:31:03 GMT -5
izzue - I couldn't agree more. I am drawn to Marin's writing in much the same way and admire the complexity he creates. I wanted to spend some time yesterday on a couple of images in this chapter that we have yet to discuss. One is House of the Undying Ones, itself. moiaf brought up and discussed the decaying aspect of this structure wonderfully. I can't add more to her analysis. However, I would like to focus on the unique composition of the House itself. First of all, it isn't what Dany expects: "In this city of splendors, Dany had expected the House of the Undying Ones to be the most splendid of all, but she emerged from her palanquin to behold a grey and ancient ruin." Qarth is a port city built upon trade and commerce and abutted by the Red Waste. Consequently, in such a place it seems easy to imagine that each merchant faction of Qarth would try to outdo each other with buildings as gorgeous and as fantastic as the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Pyramids of Giza, (so to speak). This House is "long and low without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black trees. . ." Right off the bat, "long and low," creates the image of a lack of elevation. This building, unlike a pyramid or a cathedral, does not reach upward and away from the earth, but coils upon it. The fact that it "coils like a stone serpent," plays with a traditional interpretation of serpents (and/or snakes) as a slippery force to be reckoned with, such as the serpent in the Garden of Eden; the force of temptation that seduces and creates chaos. In addition to this seductive force aspect of the serpent, there are also lurks in this image, resurrection, because snakes shed their skin. The fact that Martin uses the serpent reflects later events in this chapter, particularly the Undying themselves, who seem to want to coil about Dany and squeeze the life out of her. Dany later feels as if she's stopped breathing. One more thing about this "serpent" house, is it is stone. The phrase, "hard as stone" comes to mind, which can be a positive image, suggesting solidity, strength, and immovability. The negative aspect, which seems to be implied here, is stagnation, stubbornness, and immobility. Hence, it is an "ancient ruin," lacking force and resurrection as suggested by the positive aspects of its serpentine shape. The House's negative aspect is further emphasized by its lack of towers and windows. Towers on a building, like a steeple on a church, represent ascension, lifting up off the ground and pointing to the heavens above. Towers indicate a path to the eternal. Here towers are notably absent, suggesting there will be no ascension here. Any journey through this House will be long and low. Windows, also, are notably absent. Windows are openings allow which what is outside to come in, and whoever is inside to look out. Windows allow the exchange of light and air. Windows give and take and increase communication between this inside and the outside. Here, the absence of any windows at all suggests a design to cut off communication with the outside world. A retreat from the world and its influence. This is further developed by the fact that the building stands apart from any other buildings in Qarth. It is isolated and surrounded by the grove of black barked trees. Once again, with this forbidding grove, a fairy tale, the tale of Briar Rose, or aka, Sleeping Beauty, comes to mind. The grove following around the House's serpentine shape intimidates outsiders and prevents trespassing. The grove is a woody 'stop sign.' Finally, the doorway into the House is " a tall oval mouth set in wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face." The gaping mouth door is Dany's means of entry. The mouth here as an entryway into this place reminds me of a Medieval mummer's play, in that often, to prevent the temptation of sin, (created by the Fall of Mankind because of the temptation in the Garden of Eden), the mummers would show the mouth of hell or the Hellmouth to terrify people and keep them on the path of righteousness, away from succumbing to temptation . Medieval artists picked up on this bit of theatricality, and there are many examples of the Hellmouth throughout English and European art of this period.. What's important here about the mouth shaped door is that it suggests the devouring aspect of a human mouth. The doorway isn't shaped like a smile or a kiss. It's a big open hole. It seems to be the only way into the House. PP warns Dany " the front way leads in, but never out again." I don't want to get too graphic here, but the fact that this door only leads in and never out again brings to mind the digestive system. It implies the only way out of this building may be a rather different and unappealing sort if exit. Hopefully, some followers of this thread will read this and you will see things that I missed in regard to this strange House. Please share them. Also, what about all of the doors that Dany must pass through before she reaches the inner chamber. Some of the doors appear to be anything but an ordinary means of entrance or exit. Finally, what's with all of the always go to the right business. I have an idea about it, but no time to share it now.
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Post by izzue on Jul 27, 2016 12:30:24 GMT -5
Really interesting post about the House itself, blisscraft ! I'm having Imgur problems which I've been trying to resolve for the past day, and although I've finally gotten to the point where I can locate the BBC code to post an image on a forum, I am not able to pull up the options for sizing it. Consequently, the image I wanted to post for the HOTU will unfortunately show up as huge. But of all the images I've seen, it is the one that really shows the dark and gloomy appearance of it, to say nothing of the door which clearly looks like an evil face which is about to swallow her. It also shows that ring of ironwood trees. I really like your post, khaella , about these trees: The HOTU:
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Post by blisscraft on Jul 30, 2016 8:40:05 GMT -5
izzue - That is one nasty looking mouth. Not very inviting.
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Post by izzue on Jul 30, 2016 8:49:30 GMT -5
izzue - That is one nasty looking mouth. Not very inviting. What also stood out for me is the bright blue of the tops of the trees. I wonder if it's intended to play on the symbolism of the color blue in Dany's visions. ETA: blisscraft, hoping you'll have a chance to post a sentence or two about the "always turn right" part of Pree's instructions. There was that one time when Dany could not find a door to the right at all, was stymied, but then realized the last door on the left would be the first on on her right. Very strange. Do you think that the right and left have to do with East and West, perhaps relating to Quaithe's prophecy?
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Post by moiaf on Jul 31, 2016 14:31:40 GMT -5
izzue - That is one nasty looking mouth. Not very inviting. What also stood out for me is the bright blue of the tops of the trees. I wonder if it's intended to play on the symbolism of the color blue in Dany's visions. ETA: blisscraft, hoping you'll have a chance to post a sentence or two about the "always turn right" part of Pree's instructions. There was that one time when Dany could not find a door to the right at all, was stymied, but then realized the last door on the left would be the first on on her right. Very strange. Do you think that the right and left have to do with East and West, perhaps relating to Quaithe's prophecy? The tress have blue leaves because those are the leaves used to making the Shades of the Evening drink. They are like the opposite of the Weirwood tress, where the Weirwood (which.I just realizes are wolf treats, duh) are white with red leaves, these trees, whose names I don't think we know, have black wood with blue leaves. That's why the leaves are used to make the potions that both Dany and Bran drink. Also, Euron drinks tons of Shade of the Evening, which cannot be good.
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