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Post by izzue on Jul 31, 2016 14:42:31 GMT -5
Hahaha, -- I got so caught up in the symbolism of the colors that I completely forgot about the shade of the evening drinks being made from these trees (I think they are ironwood trees). Too much! Also, Euron drinks tons of Shade of the Evening, which cannot be good. I concur!
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Post by moiaf on Jul 31, 2016 15:00:51 GMT -5
Hahaha, -- I got so caught up in the symbolism of the colors that I completely forgot about the shade of the evening drinks being made from these trees (I think they are ironwood trees). Too much! Also, Euron drinks tons of Shade of the Evening, which cannot be good. I concur! Hmm, do they ever mention if ironwood has blue leaves? I think I remember that when it burns the flames are blue, so it very well might be.
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Post by izzue on Jul 31, 2016 15:38:10 GMT -5
moiaf, I'm just beginning to learn about ironwood trees, but here's a quote from khaella from earlier in the thread. This is probably one of my favorite chapters! So much information, symbolism, and foreshadowing is in this chapter. My main interest (right now) in this chapter are the black-barked trees outside of the HotUD. We know that they have black bark and the blue leaves that are used to make the shade of the evening. I've wondered if they are the mysterious hard black bark ironwood trees that we hear about occasionally. If so, would they be similar, or the opposite of the weirwoods? Black/white (life/death) red/blue (fire/ice). It would make sense since the theme of opposites run deep. I also wonder if instead of ebony, as Dany thinks it is, the black wood on the door there and at the HoBaW is actually ironwood. Ironwood is only mentioned 12 times throughout the series, but I have a nagging feeling that they are important. Now I know the Telltale game and other games aren't canon, but they do mention ironwoods. In one game I used to play, they used an ironwood paste to help a character see. We also know that the Others hate iron thanks to Old Nan. The Starks use an ironwood stump for executions and they have to cross a bridge made of ironwood to get to the stump. There are also a few ironwoods in their godswood. And, hmmm, this sounds like a promise that at some point we'll have a thread about ironwoods - and perhaps on a few metals, too? I can't wait to read it. izzue, thank you I am actually working on an ironwood thread at the moment. I have also been working on something about a few metals, but it isn't ready yet. As soon as it is, I will post it.
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Post by blisscraft on Aug 1, 2016 9:20:10 GMT -5
moiaf and izzue - As for the "always turn right" instructions from PP, there comes a point where right does become left in this House. One of the reasons this happens is because physically, the House is "coiled like a stone serpent." The coil here seems to read more like a three dimensional spiral shape than an "S" curve. (I don't think it is shaped like the Ouroboros, a snake eating its own tail).
The spiral shape lends itself to the always "turn right" instructions because once you reach the end of its "tail" you have to turn around to keep going to the right. Also, going to the right is "clockwise." Clocks are circular and so the hands going clockwise move from a central hub. Here, in a coil or spiral shape, it isn't a perfect circle like a clock. So there is no real central point. If the House was a circle, Dany would simply go around and around and not have that moment where she must turn back to go forward. She would never reach the "dead end". At the "dead end," there is something about the torches flickering out with little light remaining in the darkening hallway and the sounds of something unknown pursuing her before she comes to the moment of realization that not only creates a tense atmosphere, but also the epiphany about the direction, always turn right, the seeming "dead end" of her journey becomes the "hub," or the point of return. It reminds me of the adage, "it's always darkest before the dawn."
All of the prophecies directed (sorry about the pun) at Dany to this point in her chapters involve cardinal directions. From MMD to Quaithe to HOTU, North, South, East and West appear less as "real" directions and more as metaphor. Martin reminds us here in the HOTU, that problem with cardinal directions is that East and West depend upon where you may be at any given point and whether you chose to go right or left. For example, if you are going to the right while facing North, you would be headed East. If are facing East, going to the right means that you will be headed South and so on. . . This seems to be a clever devise Martin uses to convey the vagaries of prophecy. Although, it would be nice if there was some kind of map to provide Dany assistance, such as one with an arrow pointing to the spot where Dany is standing with the caption: "YOU ARE HERE." That hub, would indicate the direction she must really turn, not only in the HOTU, but elsewhere in her journey. In Martin's world, however, "the map is not the land." So this type of "mall map" probably wouldn't help her much at all.
This constant play of directions on Dany's journey, makes her seems like she has no direction. I suspect this is why so many readers become frustrated with her roaming about "all over the map" and her indecision about where to turn next. However, her journey, is as much an emotional and spiritual one and perhaps even amounts to a test as part of her education towards real leadership in her future. At this point, Dany's journey reminds me of a line from Albee's play, The Zoo Story, "Sometimes you have to go a long way around to come back a short distance correctly." This journey through the belly of the HOTU beast, provides her with just such an opportunity, to go a long way around to come back a short distance correctly.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 1, 2016 9:26:22 GMT -5
One more bit. I think I have a good idea what all the Slayer of Lies thingies mean:
Slayer of Lies:
* The first one is almost certainly Aegon the Fake, he is a false Targaryen and therefore a false king.
* The second is also almost certainly Stannis. He is a false AAR/TPTWP. The real Prince that was Promise is Dany.
* The third I've come to believes is Euron. He, by what we have learned, wants to be the heir to the Valyrian empire, the dragons, and the old magic of Valyria. The tower is Hightower (he's headed to Oldtown) and the breast breathing shadow fire might be the magic and trickery he uses to claim that role (shadows being representative of illusions). The irony of this of course is that Dany the true heir to Valyria, the dragons and it's magic has become an antithesis to what the Valyrians stood for. Where once the Valyrians used dragons to enslave people, she uses them to free people.
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Post by khaella on Aug 1, 2016 11:19:15 GMT -5
moiaf, Love it! I have always thought the same about your first two points on the Slayer of Lies, but I couldn't ever settle on who or what the stone beast is. That makes a lot of sense. izzue, thank you I have had such a problem with my internet! Then I was trying to come here, but I was hitting the wrong thread and I thought it had disappeared lol. It took me a minute to realize that I wasn't going here I have done some more work on both of those thread ideas, but every time I'm almost finished, I find more and more. It's snowballing out of my control! I feel like I should dedicate a room for it! I'll have a million strings posted all over the place and look crazy (not anything new).
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Post by izzue on Aug 2, 2016 22:27:08 GMT -5
moiaf , I love your ideas on the Slayer of Lies bits! And it's true, Dany uses the dragons to free people, not enslave them. But what Euron wants is to enslave them, as they were in old Valyria. khaella , take your time with the ironwood thread....no pressure intended! blisscraft , I love what you wrote about the directions. As I was reading it, I thought of the line that Dany kept repeating throughout so many of the earlier books, and that she got back to in her final chapter in Dance. It's "If I look back, I am lost." And she never did look back, she kept moving forward, until I think Meereen just seemed to 'corner' her, I don't know. I've always loved that line, though, and when she got back to it at the end of Dance, I felt a huge burst of hope/confidence that Dany was on her way out of the stuck places of Meereen, even though she was still out in the middle of nowhere, sick as she could be, deserted by Drogon.
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Post by blisscraft on Aug 3, 2016 8:15:30 GMT -5
moiaf , I love your ideas on the Slayer of Lies bits! And it's true, Dany uses the dragons to free people, not enslave them. But what Euron wants is to enslave them, as they were in old Valyria. khaella , take your time with the ironwood thread....no pressure intended! blisscraft , I love what you wrote about the directions. As I was reading it, I thought of the line that Dany kept repeating throughout so many of the earlier books, and that she got back to in her final chapter in Dance. It's "If I look back, I am lost." And she never did look back, she kept moving forward, until I think Meereen just seemed to 'corner' her, I don't know. I've always loved that line, though, and when she got back to it at the end of Dance, I felt a huge burst of hope/confidence that Dany was on her way out of the stuck places of Meereen, even though she was still out in the middle of nowhere, sick as she could be, deserted by Drogon. izzue - So interesting that you point out Dany's line ("If I look back, I am lost.") in reference to this prophecy (and maybe all of the others, too). Prophecy, and what it may or may not mean, is never understood until something happens that seems to fulfill it. Once the prophecy seems to be fulfilled, it is usually too late to do a thing about it, except wonder about its accuracy or how one failed to understand its meaning originally. Something in this particular chapter that stands out regarding prophecy and the prophets who offer it is (for want of a better word) Martin's diptych: first revealing the "splendor of wizards," where the Undying appear to be beautiful and fabulous, and then the "chamber awash with gloom," where the Undying appear as they really are; rotten to the core. Thankfully, it is Drogon who helps Dany to the "real" prophets, indicating the way out of the unreal "splendor of wizards" to the real rotten version. Drogon turns Dany to the "right" door. Drogon flies off Dany's shoulder and begins chewing on the big black and white door which, once Dany succeeds in opening it, shows to the right, the small hidden door leading to the real Undying. And so Drogon, may provide again, a way out of the trap that Meereen has become. Drogon, even though he has left Dany alone in the wilderness, contemplating her need to move always forward, will most likely return to her and show her the way out. That's my prophecy anyway.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 3, 2016 8:27:30 GMT -5
moiaf and izzue - As for the "always turn right" instructions from PP, there comes a point where right does become left in this House. One of the reasons this happens is because physically, the House is "coiled like a stone serpent." The coil here seems to read more like a three dimensional spiral shape than an "S" curve. (I don't think it is shaped like the Ouroboros, a snake eating its own tail). The spiral shape lends itself to the always "turn right" instructions because once you reach the end of its "tail" you have to turn around to keep going to the right. Also, going to the right is "clockwise." Clocks are circular and so the hands going clockwise move from a central hub. Here, in a coil or spiral shape, it isn't a perfect circle like a clock. So there is no real central point. If the House was a circle, Dany would simply go around and around and not have that moment where she must turn back to go forward. She would never reach the "dead end". At the "dead end," there is something about the torches flickering out with little light remaining in the darkening hallway and the sounds of something unknown pursuing her before she comes to the moment of realization that not only creates a tense atmosphere, but also the epiphany about the direction, always turn right, the seeming "dead end" of her journey becomes the "hub," or the point of return. It reminds me of the adage, "it's always darkest before the dawn." All of the prophecies directed (sorry about the pun) at Dany to this point in her chapters involve cardinal directions. From MMD to Quaithe to HOTU, North, South, East and West appear less as "real" directions and more as metaphor. Martin reminds us here in the HOTU, that problem with cardinal directions is that East and West depend upon where you may be at any given point and whether you chose to go right or left. For example, if you are going to the right while facing North, you would be headed East. If are facing East, going to the right means that you will be headed South and so on. . . This seems to be a clever devise Martin uses to convey the vagaries of prophecy. Although, it would be nice if there was some kind of map to provide Dany assistance, such as one with an arrow pointing to the spot where Dany is standing with the caption: "YOU ARE HERE." That hub, would indicate the direction she must really turn, not only in the HOTU, but elsewhere in her journey. In Martin's world, however, "the map is not the land." So this type of "mall map" probably wouldn't help her much at all. This constant play of directions on Dany's journey, makes her seems like she has no direction. I suspect this is why so many readers become frustrated with her roaming about "all over the map" and her indecision about where to turn next. However, her journey, is as much an emotional and spiritual one and perhaps even amounts to a test as part of her education towards real leadership in her future. At this point, Dany's journey reminds me of a line from Albee's play, The Zoo Story, "Sometimes you have to go a long way around to come back a short distance correctly." This journey through the belly of the HOTU beast, provides her with just such an opportunity, to go a long way around to come back a short distance correctly. When Jon is with the Wildlings, Ygritte says something to Jon (can't remember the exact words) but it makes Jon understand that you see the world depending upon where you are standing ( We look up to the same stars, and see such different things.). For that particular scene it was either beyond the Wall or in Westeros. They point was that it is all about perspective. moiaf , I love your ideas on the Slayer of Lies bits! And it's true, Dany uses the dragons to free people, not enslave them. But what Euron wants is to enslave them, as they were in old Valyria. khaella , take your time with the ironwood thread....no pressure intended! blisscraft , I love what you wrote about the directions. As I was reading it, I thought of the line that Dany kept repeating throughout so many of the earlier books, and that she got back to in her final chapter in Dance. It's "If I look back, I am lost." And she never did look back, she kept moving forward, until I think Meereen just seemed to 'corner' her, I don't know. I've always loved that line, though, and when she got back to it at the end of Dance, I felt a huge burst of hope/confidence that Dany was on her way out of the stuck places of Meereen, even though she was still out in the middle of nowhere, sick as she could be, deserted by Drogon. izzue - So interesting that you point out Dany's line ("If I look back, I am lost.") in reference to this prophecy (and maybe all of the others, too). Prophecy, and what it may or may not mean, is never understood until something happens that seems to fulfill it. Once the prophecy seems to be fulfilled, it is usually too late to do a thing about it, except wonder about its accuracy or how one failed to understand its meaning originally. Something in this particular chapter that stands out regarding prophecy and the prophets who offer it is (for want of a better word) Martin's diptych: first revealing the "splendor of wizards," where the Undying appear to be beautiful and fabulous, and then the "chamber awash with gloom," where the Undying appear as they really are; rotten to the core. Thankfully, it is Drogon who helps Dany to the "real" prophets, indicating the way out of the unreal "splendor of wizards" to the real rotten version. Drogon turns Dany to the "right" door. Drogon flies off Dany's shoulder and begins chewing on the big black and white door which, once Dany succeeds in opening it, shows to the right, the small hidden door leading to the real Undying. And so Drogon, may provide again, a way out of the trap that Meereen has become. Drogon, even though he has left Dany alone in the wilderness, contemplating her need to move always forward, will most likely return to her and show her the way out. That's my prophecy anyway. That line "if I look back, I'm lost" is actually from the first book, from Dany's fevered dream:
After Dany wakes from this dream, she begins to use this phrase at the very end of AGOT. It's funny though because when she's in the Dothraki sea at the end of ADWD, she changes her tune and says to herself " To go forward, I must go back" and then mounts Drogon and they go hunting. Drogon and Dany are eating a dead horse when the Dothraki show up.
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Post by Envie on Aug 3, 2016 11:05:38 GMT -5
I have no idea how I missed posting in this thread when you all started it as I've read some of the posts but never finished the entire thread. I'm marking it now on my bucket list to get caught up on as I really want to join in on this from the book perspective but I seriously need to do some homework first (may include a re-read of it in the book and some analysis essays). My problem right now is limited time and leading the show Re-watch project so I don't want to confuse the show version with the much more detailed book version! I know moiaf suggested a book re-read project after we're done with the show re-watch project because the winter until Season 7 is going to be a LONG one, just as the Citadel and Ned always said! Great job all of you and I'll join in soon!
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Post by izzue on Aug 3, 2016 12:22:14 GMT -5
moiaf , blisscraft , and khaella have brought out so many things I would never have thought of, Envie . But I am with you, totally! There are threads I want to read but haven't even made a dent in yet. It's wonderful to have such an active board and such great threads. But that dirty little four letter word T I M E always gets in the way!
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Post by blisscraft on Aug 4, 2016 8:57:54 GMT -5
moiaf - Thank you for including the Jon and Ygrette reference. There are many parallels between Jon and Dany. I participated in a thread on Westeros a few years ago regarding the similarities between them. Also, your insight as to perception is a fundamental and glorious aspect to Martin's writing. His brilliant ability to plot out the series comes precisely from perception and perspective. Your observation also brings me back to Martin's use of the doors in this chapter. "The doors of perception are open," aren't they? :wideeyed: izzue - I couldn't agree more with you and the dirty four letter word. There is never enough of it. Envie - So excited that you want to join us. I can't wait to hear your opinion about all of the wildness in this chapter. You must tell me what you think about the difference between how this book chapter reads and how the show presents it. :flamebreathing:
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Post by khaella on Aug 10, 2016 10:17:18 GMT -5
There is never enough time! I usually have more time when school is in. The kids run me ragged in the summer. Practices, sleepovers, camping, swimming, it never ends! I'm worn out and looking forward to fall! izzue, No worries! I know it wasn't pressure I had to consult Balerion on some stuff, which helped greatly! I had thought that my entire idea was shot after I read something. Thankfully, it's back on track! moiaf, thank you for posting that line from Dany's fever dream! I had completely forgotten about that! It's so telling and I love how it says "she would die a death that was more than death".
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Post by izzue on Sept 2, 2016 13:21:14 GMT -5
I've been on a major campaign of "fall cleaning", and one of the best things about that is that it's been a great opportunity to listen to some of ladygwynhyfvar and Yolkboy's wonderful Radio Westeros ASOIAF Podcasts. Thinking about this thread in particular, and since I hadn't listened to it before, I went back to the 21st podcast on the Prophecies, and it's so good! I paused it and went back to rewind a number of times, but there're so much insightful information that I'm going to listen to that particular one a second time when I get back to cleaning tomorrow. It's all good, but the part on the HOTU is really great to listen to in light of this thread. Here's an overview of it (first link) and the easiest way to find it (second link): housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/5799/threadradiowesteros.com
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Post by khaella on Sept 12, 2016 13:17:40 GMT -5
izzue, I will have to check that one out. I too have been doing fall cleaning. I'm waiting for it to cool down a bit so I can get into the attic. No way am I going up there now and roasting! I love fall so I've been making and buying up decorations
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