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Post by nikma on Apr 16, 2017 7:29:58 GMT -5
I think that the White hunt will be the most spectacular episode in this show ever. Miguel Sapochnik is great and I hope he will return for S8, but I'm glad that there will be fresh blood in directing two big action scenes(the White hunt and Reachbowl).
I also hope that Euron vs Yara and Ellaria will be great as well. If they do something in the Black Sails style I will be thrilled. The great naval battle is something this show never had. S7 is maybe the last opportunity to do that.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Apr 16, 2017 9:03:26 GMT -5
The only flashback for Bran that we have some evidence/leak/spoiler for is Rhaegar and Lyanna, however that doesn't mean he spends 24/7 attached to the weirwood tree. I'm sure he and Jon have some conversation about the previous Long Night which may lead to some scenes filmed in cgi.
I'm still reserving judgement on the hunt until it plays out. As I've said many times before, on paper it sounds like the biggest Dues ex machina I've ever heard of. Send most of your core players to seek out the one thing that can survive anything but fire? Just to prove it exists to Cersei, bat-shit crazy, Lannister? When you have the power in your hands to blow said Lannister into her own fiery inferno?
I am interested in Krackenbowl. Euron is an unpredictable element in the story and I have high hopes for an interesting family reunion for the Greyjoys as well as the Starks.
Jon and Dany was setup from Season 1, Episode 1, especially if you have read the books. I've often thought the 'sun sets in the east, rises in the west' referred to the top of the world, where all compass points are South. So when I read about the boat trip, that solidified the prophecy in my mind, along with the reason she saw Drogo and Rhaego in the snow during her visit to the HotU.
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Post by nikma on Apr 16, 2017 10:58:16 GMT -5
When you have the power in your hands to blow said Lannister into her own fiery inferno? I think that's the key. Jon believes that the looses the war will create if it continues are too big and that the price is too high even if Cersei, Jaime and Euron are all dead at the end. It would be Pyrrhic victory.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 17, 2017 9:26:06 GMT -5
The only flashback for Bran that we have some evidence/leak/spoiler for is Rhaegar and Lyanna, however that doesn't mean he spends 24/7 attached to the weirwood tree. I'm sure he and Jon have some conversation about the previous Long Night which may lead to some scenes filmed in cgi. I'm still reserving judgement on the hunt until it plays out. As I've said many times before, on paper it sounds like the biggest Dues ex machina I've ever heard of. Send most of your core players to seek out the one thing that can survive anything but fire? Just to prove it exists to Cersei, bat-shit crazy, Lannister? When you have the power in your hands to blow said Lannister into her own fiery inferno? I am interested in Krackenbowl. Euron is an unpredictable element in the story and I have high hopes for an interesting family reunion for the Greyjoys as well as the Starks. Jon and Dany was setup from Season 1, Episode 1, especially if you have read the books. I've often thought the 'sun sets in the east, rises in the west' referred to the top of the world, where all compass points are South. So when I read about the boat trip, that solidified the prophecy in my mind, along with the reason she saw Drogo and Rhaego in the snow during her visit to the HotU.This is interesting. Can you elaborate?
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Apr 17, 2017 19:34:54 GMT -5
About the prophecy:
I first thought about reversed compass points when my hubby and I went on a cruise through the Panama Canal. When you approach from the Pacific side, the entrance is actually positioned so that the sun is rising on the side of the boat which would normally be West. Hubs and I had quite a discussion about directions and reverse polarity, which led us to the North and South poles. SO when I started reading the books and came to Dany's prophecy of the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, my first thought was, where in Planetos can there be a directional change such as the canal entrance. It is hard to discern looking at maps if the wall has such a doubled back coast.
About Jon and Dany:
IMO, the direction D&D have built the show emphasizes these two as mirrors of each other as it reflects their story throughout ASoIaF. 1 - isolated within their family 2 - raised without mothers (or fathers) 3 - one true love in their life (Drogo, Ygritte) 4 - beloved by their followers 5 - bonded to a mythical creature 6 - alone 7 - both have resurrection myths attached to them (though Jon truly died while Dany survived her trips through the flame.)
GRRM has set them as the ice and the fire. When Dany is in the HotU, she sees Drogo and Rhaego outside the Wall, outside of any normal path she would take to the Iron Throne. I wondered why were they not in the desert or the Dothraki Sea? They were in the correct Dothraki camp and tent. Nothing in her vision shows anything of the Walkers or the Night King. Why the Wall? Because love will be found again in the Snow. In the books this is evidenced by the winter rose blooming in the Wall, which wasn't included in the show version.
At least these were the connections I made as I've traversed through the books and the show. It's never really bothered me they will be related, as GRRM already established the mores for Westeros as condoning closer family marriages than 21st century society. They were never raised together and Jon firmly identifies as a Stark. There was a case I heard of recently where a couple being treated for infertility were discovered to be fraternal twins separated at birth and raised separately. Robert Heinlein discusses love in terms of genetic compatibility. While I don't agree with Martin or Heinlein when it comes to the subject, it's called fiction for a reason.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 17, 2017 22:31:47 GMT -5
Lady Sansa's Direwolf , you could also read "The mountains blow in the wind like leaves" from MMD's prophecy as being metaphorical for the Wall collapsing so if Dany conceives when she sleeps with Jon, it wouldn't surprise me. Both of those scenes also occur simultaneously.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 18, 2017 0:49:27 GMT -5
The Wall crashing would be by far the single most important event of the season in my view. All of the events north of the Wall have boiled down to this. In turn, this will shape the present and future of the entire Westeros. Kings rise and fall, dynasties come and go. But the Long Night will make all that look puny in comparison.
Death of Viserion (or any of the three) would be an important event as well. That might result in Dany descending into the Targ Madness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 0:52:11 GMT -5
The Wall crashing would be by far the single most important event of the season in my view. All of the events north of the Wall have boiled down to this. In turn, this will shape the present and future of the entire Westeros. Kings rise and fall, dynasties come and go. But the Long Night will make all that look puny in comparison. Death of Viserion (or any of the three) would be an important event as well. That might result in Dany descending into the Targ Madness.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 18, 2017 0:59:06 GMT -5
The Wall crashing would be by far the single most important event of the season in my view. All of the events north of the Wall have boiled down to this. In turn, this will shape the present and future of the entire Westeros. Kings rise and fall, dynasties come and go. But the Long Night will make all that look puny in comparison. Death of Viserion (or any of the three) would be an important event as well. That might result in Dany descending into the Targ Madness.I'm not sure that would result in Dany becoming mad. I actually expect her to be quite emotional after Viserion dies, not necessarily full of rage.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 18, 2017 1:03:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure that would result in Dany becoming mad. I actually expect her to be quite emotional after Viserion dies, not necessarily full of rage. We might see Targ Madness in present time in the books. There is simply too much teasing of Targ Madness in the books and it will be disappointing if we never see it within ASOIAF. Not sure how far they will go on the show on that front. You are probably right. She may not go completely crazy but she may turn more cruel after this trauma. As it is, book Dany is little more edgy than the show Dany. I hope she goes crazy on the show though. Imagine how amazing it would be to see a full-on crazy Dany going berserk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 1:14:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure that would result in Dany becoming mad. I actually expect her to be quite emotional after Viserion dies, not necessarily full of rage. We might see Targ Madness in present time in the books. There is simply too much teasing of Targ Madness in the books and it will be disappointing if we never see it within ASOIAF. Not sure how far they will go on the show on that front. You are probably right. She may not go completely crazy but she may turn more cruel after this trauma. As it is, book Dany is little more edgy than the show Dany. I hope she goes crazy on the show though. Imagine how amazing it would be to see a full-on crazy Dany going berserk. How much crueler you want her? She drug a naked man behind her horse to a gruesome death, burned a woman alive in a sacrifice of blood magic, locked 2 people in a vault to starve to death, roasted a group of slavers, crucified some others, fed one to her dragons, etc. She's already a grey character. She ain't gonna go mad though. Books or show. We already have one mad queen in Cersei.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 18, 2017 1:22:13 GMT -5
How much crueler you want her? She drug a naked man behind her horse to a gruesome death, burned a woman alive in a sacrifice of blood magic, locked 2 people in a vault to starve to death, roasted a group of slavers, crucified some others, fed one to her dragons, etc. She's already a grey character. She ain't gonna go mad. Books or show. We already have one mad queen in Cersei. All of these individuals deserved it to a variable degree. For example, the Wineseller tried to kill Dany. At the most, his death was more graphic than what he would have got in Westeros. True cruelty would require utter disregard for right and wrong, e.g. "Burn them all". And Dany can bring the burn. Far more than Cersei can. This is where I think books and show will go separate ways. In the books if Dany feels at any moment that she is cheated (in her opinion) out of her place on the Iron Throne, she will start burning. The show would require 10 seasons to go that far.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 18, 2017 7:29:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure that would result in Dany becoming mad. I actually expect her to be quite emotional after Viserion dies, not necessarily full of rage. We might see Targ Madness in present time in the books. There is simply too much teasing of Targ Madness in the books and it will be disappointing if we never see it within ASOIAF. Not sure how far they will go on the show on that front. You are probably right. She may not go completely crazy but she may turn more cruel after this trauma. As it is, book Dany is little more edgy than the show Dany. I hope she goes crazy on the show though. Imagine how amazing it would be to see a full-on crazy Dany going berserk. We might see Targ Madness in present time in the books. There is simply too much teasing of Targ Madness in the books and it will be disappointing if we never see it within ASOIAF. Not sure how far they will go on the show on that front. You are probably right. She may not go completely crazy but she may turn more cruel after this trauma. As it is, book Dany is little more edgy than the show Dany. I hope she goes crazy on the show though. Imagine how amazing it would be to see a full-on crazy Dany going berserk. How much crueler you want her? She drug a naked man behind her horse to a gruesome death, burned a woman alive in a sacrifice of blood magic, locked 2 people in a vault to starve to death, roasted a group of slavers, crucified some others, fed one to her dragons, etc. She's already a grey character. She ain't gonna go mad though. Books or show. We already have one mad queen in Cersei. How much crueler you want her? She drug a naked man behind her horse to a gruesome death, burned a woman alive in a sacrifice of blood magic, locked 2 people in a vault to starve to death, roasted a group of slavers, crucified some others, fed one to her dragons, etc. She's already a grey character. She ain't gonna go mad. Books or show. We already have one mad queen in Cersei. All of these individuals deserved it to a variable degree. For example, the Wineseller tried to kill Dany. At the most, his death was more graphic than what he would have got in Westeros. True cruelty would require utter disregard for right and wrong, e.g. "Burn them all". And Dany can bring the burn. Far more than Cersei can. This is where I think books and show will go separate ways. In the books if Dany feels at any moment that she is cheated (in her opinion) out of her place on the Iron Throne, she will start burning. The show would require 10 seasons to go that far. I wouldn't call Dany cruel, however, she's quite capable of being ruthless. Regarding the "Targaryen madness" The whole things is overblown; out of the hundreds of Targaryne's we've known only about 5 could truly be considered insane. That's not a high percentage, given that there were a hell of a lot of Targaryens we didn't know. We knew about the insane ones because for 300 years the Targaryens were the super stars of Westeros, their business was the public's business. They lived under a microscope where all their action were scrutinized. and all the wrongs things that they did were magnified a thousand times. I can assure you that if this type of scrutiny was placed on any of the other noble Houses there wouldn't be that much different. Of course the Targaryen's had an extra level of celebrity going on because they were Valyrians and had dragons. Jaehaerys II quote is used often but it really doesn't make much sense does it? Because Targaryen's weren't either mad or great, there were some mad Targaryens, some great Targaryens and a lot of them fell in between the two. Just your average, run of the mill princely noble. Even those who were considered mad didn't really have the same ailment. Aerion thought he was a dragon, Rhaegal was simple, Aerys was paranoid (but that wasn't triggered until his trauma after being kidnapped), Baelor I was a religious fanatic, Maegar I was just cruel and I'm not sure if he was mad, Jaehaera had some developmental issues. So there is no real pattern here, and some of them are not children of brother/sister marriages. I don't count Viserys, because although, he wasn't the nicest of children he wasn't crazy, circumstances drove him to really have a mental breakdown (at the worse possible moment). As for Dany, I think the theme of her father's madness is there as way to remind her not to give in to her more darker/ruthless tendencies. I see it like Galadrielle and the ring, a temptation she has to fight against. Dany's character is very dualistic, mother and dragon, queen and conqueror, peace and war, empathy and ruthlessness, etc. A lot of her internal turmoil is about finding a balance between these opposing forces inside of her. We saw it last season at the end when her ruthlessness wanted to win but then she was reminded of the consequences of just letting her dragon side lose and she pulled herself back. Dany is one of the heroes of the story, we aren't meant to see her go crazy, but we are meant to see her "human heart in conflict with itself", her struggle to keep these opposing forces within her in balance. She might walk to the edge like she did last season but she is able to pull herself back and the more she grows the better she'll become at it. After all she's still a young person, with young person impulses (I think in the show she's suppose to be 21-22 year's old).
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 18, 2017 8:21:31 GMT -5
I don't think Dany is "cruel." I think she's just capable of being ruthless, and I think she probably has some anger issues. But I don't think she's evil or mad.
We already have a crazy queen. Why would we want another?
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Post by katjushka on Apr 18, 2017 9:59:27 GMT -5
I think the "Targ madness" is teased excactly because it's not Dany who is the mad queen. To make a point that it's not Targ madness, it's just madness.
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