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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 21, 2017 7:58:28 GMT -5
the book scene had the others laughing as they butchered waymar. they were holding back at first only until his sword shattered and it was clear he was no threat (no azor ahai or last hero). and will was hiding in a tree the whole time until the others left. it was wight!waymar who killed him. the pact is pure fanon which ignores all the wight horses and wight bears. It's not just that first opening scene where this idea is explored though, there are references to it scattered throughout the books that there's more to it than them simply being undead or ice demons bent on destroying man. Yes they changed it a bit in the show (Will is confronted by them rather than hiding in a tree), but there are other places where it's noted they don't always kill immediately or indiscriminately. In the books Tormund mentions how the White Walkers had been hounding their army the whole way to the wall ... as if they were almost driving or herding them that direction. We know from Hardhome they could have just massacred them entirely and raised the dead to keep killing more. But they didn't do that at the wall. They massacred everyone at Hardhome, presumedly, because those wildlings didn't go south of the wall like the rest. The hint here is that the white walkers want men to stay south of the wall and that the wall was meant to be the boundary between their worlds. All theories are fanon until confirmed in canon, but not all have equal textual support. That's like saying A+N=J is as valid as R+L=J. Fanfic is something else entirely. I'm saying there could be other strategic reasons for them not killing every human at first sight. In the case of Mance's army, it's most likely they were herding them to the Wall so they could break the gate and kill as many NW as they could. If the gates had been breached by the wildlings, it's possible the wights could follow them through. Old Nan said the Wall would stand as barrier as long as the NW stood. Or they could have believed Mance had the Horn of Joramun and been hoping he'd use it. And they could just be arrogant enough to think they have plenty of time to kill people after the Wall goes down. The prologue gives evidence of their cockiness, but there is no example of true mercy from them. The only one we can say for sure was spared was Craster, who worshipped them. Craster's baby service shows they actually do need humans beyond the Wall and the wight-horses, wight-bear, and now wight-giants show they kill warm-blooded creatures who have every reason to live beyond the Wall.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 21, 2017 9:02:29 GMT -5
It's not just that first opening scene where this idea is explored though, there are references to it scattered throughout the books that there's more to it than them simply being undead or ice demons bent on destroying man. Yes they changed it a bit in the show (Will is confronted by them rather than hiding in a tree), but there are other places where it's noted they don't always kill immediately or indiscriminately. In the books Tormund mentions how the White Walkers had been hounding their army the whole way to the wall ... as if they were almost driving or herding them that direction. We know from Hardhome they could have just massacred them entirely and raised the dead to keep killing more. But they didn't do that at the wall. They massacred everyone at Hardhome, presumedly, because those wildlings didn't go south of the wall like the rest. The hint here is that the white walkers want men to stay south of the wall and that the wall was meant to be the boundary between their worlds. All theories are fanon until confirmed in canon, but not all have equal textual support. That's like saying A+N=J is as valid as R+L=J. Fanfic is something else entirely. I'm saying there could be other strategic reasons for them not killing every human at first sight. In the case of Mance's army, it's most likely they were herding them to the Wall so they could break the gate and kill as many NW as they could. If the gates had been breached by the wildlings, it's possible the wights could follow them through. Old Nan said the Wall would stand as barrier as long as the NW stood. Or they could have believed Mance had the Horn of Joramun and been hoping he'd use it. And they could just be arrogant enough to think they have plenty of time to kill people after the Wall goes down. The prologue gives evidence of their cockiness, but there is no example of true mercy from them. The only one we can say for sure was spared was Craster, who worshipped them. Craster's baby service shows they actually do need humans beyond the Wall and the wight-horses, wight-bear, and now wight-giants show they kill warm-blooded creatures who have every reason to live beyond the Wall. This. That was also my first impression during reading GoT prologue. Like they're really arrogant enough to not treat Royce seriously until he drew his sword. They were literally laughing and seemed to be bored. I saw reminiscence of this with Jon in Hardhome. WW who attacked, pushed him away from dragonglass and then followed Jon casually without a rush to finished him off. Nothing to worry, nothing to hurry, just another boring killing. And WW face seconds before he realized that he underestimated Jon and need to start fighting for real According to fanon/tin foil theories I read one a little different and interesting approach. In a cycle called Crazy Theories (link below, but it's in Polish) author found a connection between Sam and Gared that both take NW oath before Old Gods. And that maybe this means WW cannot attack/hurt/kill those of the NW who vow before/worship Old Gods. Wights definitely don't care. But WW? In books I didn't recall for now if there were any Old Gods believers killed by WW personally. Fist of the First Men was a mess and I guess we couldn't say who was killed by whom. In show this theory is invalid of course As I said Crazy Theories, author's goal is rather take some more fun from working with text and play a detective, than saving fandom with his tin foil. But as for now he's 100% right. fsgk.pl/wordpress/2017/03/szalone-teorie-czego-nie-wolno-bialym-wedrowcom/
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2017 9:16:30 GMT -5
It's not just that first opening scene where this idea is explored though, there are references to it scattered throughout the books that there's more to it than them simply being undead or ice demons bent on destroying man. Yes they changed it a bit in the show (Will is confronted by them rather than hiding in a tree), but there are other places where it's noted they don't always kill immediately or indiscriminately. In the books Tormund mentions how the White Walkers had been hounding their army the whole way to the wall ... as if they were almost driving or herding them that direction. We know from Hardhome they could have just massacred them entirely and raised the dead to keep killing more. But they didn't do that at the wall. They massacred everyone at Hardhome, presumedly, because those wildlings didn't go south of the wall like the rest. The hint here is that the white walkers want men to stay south of the wall and that the wall was meant to be the boundary between their worlds. All theories are fanon until confirmed in canon, but not all have equal textual support. That's like saying A+N=J is as valid as R+L=J. Fanfic is something else entirely. I'm saying there could be other strategic reasons for them not killing every human at first sight. In the case of Mance's army, it's most likely they were herding them to the Wall so they could break the gate and kill as many NW as they could. If the gates had been breached by the wildlings, it's possible the wights could follow them through. Old Nan said the Wall would stand as barrier as long as the NW stood. Or they could have believed Mance had the Horn of Joramun and been hoping he'd use it. And they could just be arrogant enough to think they have plenty of time to kill people after the Wall goes down. The prologue gives evidence of their cockiness, but there is no example of true mercy from them. The only one we can say for sure was spared was Craster, who worshipped them. Craster's baby service shows they actually do need humans beyond the Wall and the wight-horses, wight-bear, and now wight-giants show they kill warm-blooded creatures who have every reason to live beyond the Wall. All fair counterpoints and what sounds less credible to some fans is moreso to others. I think this one has a good amount of book clues to support there being more to it than them just bent on destruction of man. I like that the show writers changed it a bit and had the white walker throw the head at Will, sending a clear message of "this will happen to you and everyone ... run and tell them south of the wall" or something like that. I felt like they were playing up on the communication thing (and with the corpse art too). The show writers know things we don't so I felt this was another clue not put in the books. I don't think they're merciful in any way, and yes they were likely being a bit cautious and calculated with driving the wildlings to the wall with other motivations like you suggested. I do hope there's more to it than simply "evil army of undead is defeated by the heroes in battle" and I guess we're going to find out soon!
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izzue
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Post by izzue on Jul 21, 2017 9:49:52 GMT -5
Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed:
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 21, 2017 9:58:36 GMT -5
Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed: For some unknown reasons in show Will was the one who escaped (Gared in books as you said). So I guess they're referencing to show when mentioned Will. Either way we're all talking about the one who escaped
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Jul 21, 2017 10:02:34 GMT -5
Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed: If the theory is correct that the WW killed Will because he matched the description from a prophecy regarding the person that would be the downfall of the WW, then this distinction is important. To be a little more specific, there is a theory that the WW received a prophecy presumably describing Jon as the ultimate cause of their demise. The WW hear about Will being North of the Wall and he matches the description from the prophecy (as Will has certain similarities to Jon) and kill Will thinking they are avoiding the prophecy (although we all know prophecies can be misunderstood but never avoided). So if that theory ends up being correct, the WW killing Will is an important fact to note.
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ladystoneboobs
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 21, 2017 10:15:15 GMT -5
Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed: No, we were talking about the show. (I think D&D said the Will actor was just available longer when they re-shot the pilot, while the Gared actor had scheduling issues. In the original pilot it was Gared on the chopping block like in the book.) Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed: If the theory is correct that the WW killed Will because he matched the description from a prophecy regarding the person that would be the downfall of the WW, then this distinction is important. To be a little more specific, there is a theory that the WW received a prophecy presumably describing Jon as the ultimate cause of their demise. The WW hear about Will being North of the Wall and he matches the description from the prophecy (as Will has certain similarities to Jon) and kill Will thinking they are avoiding the prophecy (although we all know prophecies can be misunderstood but never avoided). So if that theory ends up being correct, the WW killing Will is an important fact to note. The WW didn't kill Will in either book or show. I know the theory you mean, but it's a theory about Waymar Royce, not Will.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 21, 2017 10:23:57 GMT -5
Just to clarify - it's a teeny point, I know, and doesn't touch on the nature of the Others being discussed, but I don't understand all of the references on the previous page to Will being executed by Ned. Will was killed by undead Royce, and it was Gared who escaped south of the Wall until captured and beheaded by Ned. The end of the Prologue in AGOT picks up after Will climbs down from the tree where he had just witnessed Royce being killed: If the theory is correct that the WW killed Will because he matched the description from a prophecy regarding the person that would be the downfall of the WW, then this distinction is important. To be a little more specific, there is a theory that the WW received a prophecy presumably describing Jon as the ultimate cause of their demise. The WW hear about Will being North of the Wall and he matches the description from the prophecy (as Will has certain similarities to Jon) and kill Will thinking they are avoiding the prophecy (although we all know prophecies can be misunderstood but never avoided). So if that theory ends up being correct, the WW killing Will is an important fact to note. Ekhm you mean Wymar?
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izzue
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Post by izzue on Jul 21, 2017 10:25:51 GMT -5
atimeforwolves and ladystoneboobs - That explains it, thanks. I've seen so many people over the years refer to Will instead of Gared, and it's always, always puzzled me. But even though I've watched Season 1 many times, I've never picked up on the switch D&D did. (And per book descriptions, I imagined Will as young, average looking and Gared as much older and plain/unattractive, like the actor Ned executed in 1x01.) Time for me to do another rewatch!
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ladystoneboobs
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 21, 2017 10:54:49 GMT -5
atimeforwolves and ladystoneboobs - That explains it, thanks. I've seen so many people over the years refer to Will instead of Gared, and it's always, always puzzled me. But even though I've watched Season 1 many times, I've never picked up on the switch D&D did. (And per book descriptions, I imagined Will as young, average looking and Gared as much older and plain/unattractive, like the actor Ned executed in 1x01.) Time for me to do another rewatch! i won't speak to his attractiveness, but show will was a younger guy. this was show gared. he looks older than will.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2017 11:06:56 GMT -5
atimeforwolves and ladystoneboobs - That explains it, thanks. I've seen so many people over the years refer to Will instead of Gared, and it's always, always puzzled me. But even though I've watched Season 1 many times, I've never picked up on the switch D&D did. (And per book descriptions, I imagined Will as young, average looking and Gared as much older and plain/unattractive, like the actor Ned executed in 1x01.) Time for me to do another rewatch! Wait this is all getting too confusing. On the show, The guy who deserted and ran south of the wall and was executed by Ned was the younger of the two rangers. Gared was the older one who got his head chopped off and thrown at the other one. But regardless it doesn't really matter which of them died and which deserted and was executed in the grander scheme of things since we were debating whether or not the White Walkers are trying to communicate or if there's a pact or agreement of some sort rather than just blatant killing. My original point was that I hope there's some tie-in to the white walkers purpose on the show and if they could go back to that very first opening scene (cold open!) of Season 1 that would be pretty cool.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 21, 2017 11:22:02 GMT -5
GOT Releases a new trailer at ComicCon with footage from Episode 2 and Episode 3.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 21, 2017 11:24:27 GMT -5
GOT Releases a new video for Episode 2 and Episode 3 We're talking about it in leakbowl thread. Isn't it too much spoilery for this thread? WARNING FUCKING MASSIVE SPOILERS IN THIS VID
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Post by moiaf on Jul 21, 2017 11:25:59 GMT -5
GOT Releases a new video for Episode 2 and Episode 3 We're talking about it in leakbowl thread. Isn't it too much spoilery for this thread? WARNING FUCKING MASSIVE SPOILERS IN THIS VID It's an official trailer released by HBO for ComiCon. It's only Episode 2 and Episode 3. Also, some of us don't want to be in the leak bowl thread.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 21, 2017 11:26:44 GMT -5
Sorry moiaf, only trying to be a good guy for unsullied of spoilers. Leaks take back half of my excitement, so knowing too much too early isn't always a good thing
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