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Post by TheArchmaester on Aug 2, 2017 17:45:11 GMT -5
I think the season 5 Dorne scenes will always suck and will never be redeemed. But at least that story started well (s4 Oberyn) and ended well (s7 Ellaria). So we have that comfort.
I think season 5 Dorne would have been much better with only Alexander Siddig and Indira Varma. And maybe 1 Sand Snake (Tyene) but that's it. And they could have humanized Ellaria more.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 2, 2017 17:49:39 GMT -5
More generally meme-ified critiques of anything bug me. Like the way people are misinterpreting what Bran says to Sansa in the Godswood as if he didn't understand her pain. He was offering his condolences to her. She was disturbed because he knew things he couldn't possibly know not because he was being tasteless. And yet you look at reddit and what do you see...
In-depth thoughtful critiques of anything that actually delve into how well or poorly-done something is in an analytic and original way is something that's entirely different. That you can agree or disagree with and engage in real meaningful discussion. But when people crystallize their critiques into single intellectually dishonest phrases with all the depth of youtube comments and then scores of redditors parrot the same unoriginal sentiments on-end for years...it really muddies the waters and makes for boring discussion.
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Basil
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Post by Basil on Aug 2, 2017 17:55:14 GMT -5
The ponit wasn't that she did something good or that Oberyn would be proud. I agree that Oberyn would never do that, which makes this kind of development even more tragic. The context matters, because Doran's death leads to war to avenge Ellia and her children, to avenge Oberyn. It was a way to give Dorne some satisfaction after all humiliation that they've faced. So Dorne wanted war. Everyone in Dorne. Even the little people and the countless foot soldiers that would probably lose their lifes in the process. How do we know that? The Martells are the only Dornish people we've ever met on the show. That whole thing with Dorne being unhappy with Doran's rule seemed to me like a weak excuse for Ellaria to justify her crime, or rather, a weak excuse by the writers to take the plot in the direction they wanted it, not in one that actually makes sense. Given everything we know about Westeros, it really makes no sense at all that after Doran's death, no Dornish lord would try to fill in the power vacuum left by his demise ... that they would just accept Ellaria Sand as their new ruler, because they were so darn unhappy with Doran's rule.
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Post by nikma on Aug 2, 2017 17:56:06 GMT -5
I agree that it was completely impossible to introduce and reintroduce 7-8 characters in a completely new location in such a short storyline and make it work, flesh out every character.
When Jon came to the wildlings in S3 for example, they had 3 new characters to introduce in that storyline and that was it. So that worked.
It's almost a rule when you are introducing a new character to put him with old characters in old location. That's what they did with the HS, or Oberyn or Euron. Or if you have a new location you need to have a very few new characters(Only Balon and Yara in S2 with Theon for example).
So, I agree that from this perspective the best solution was to have Ellaria as old character and Doran as new one. And they needed Trystan and Myrcella ofc. Ellaria would have some extras with her who could do her dirty work, fighting and etc.
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alcasinoroyale
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 2, 2017 17:58:51 GMT -5
More generally meme-ified critiques of anything bug me. Like the way people are misinterpreting what Bran says to Sansa in the Godswood as if he didn't understand her pain. He was offering his condolences to her. She was disturbed because he knew things he couldn't possibly know not because he was being tasteless. And yet you look at reddit and what do you see... Bran is so emotionally scarred himself by what he's seen and what lies ahead, losing Hodor and Summer, that he's just completely stoic. It becomes a lot for one to process and he knows how dark that world is. So I agree, even if his condolences didn't sound genuine or heartwarming, they still were.
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Post by nikma on Aug 2, 2017 18:02:33 GMT -5
So Dorne wanted war. Everyone in Dorne. Even the little people and the countless foot soldiers that would probably lose their lifes in the process. How do we know that? The Martells are the only Dornish people we've ever met on the show. I don't even understand what you are suggesting. Having a situation when in a country after many humiliations people want war is not something unrealistic. There were many all over the Europe that were happy when WW1 started. People in Germany were happy when WW2 started. Doran himself said that many in Dorne want war. It is not weak excuse, because that's the plot point from the books. I don't find anything unrealistic in Dornish lords supporting wife and children of a popular dead prince against Doran. Happened so many times in real history. They said in S5 that the SS have the love of the people.
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Basil
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Post by Basil on Aug 2, 2017 18:29:39 GMT -5
I feel like that entire storyline is super contradictory. On one hand, the Dornish lords seem to have had zero loyalty to the Martells, I mean, apparently they were cool with Ellaria killing off Doran and his heir, which essentially led to the extinction of House Martell. But at the same time, they did have enough loyalty to the Martells to be happy with Oberyn's paramour taking over rulership of Dorne and leading them to war ... in order to avenge the slain Martells.
Even if the Sand Snakes had the "love of the people", we're still talking about the murder of their liege lord here. And I think the fact that this didn't lead to some kind of civil war within Dorne is almost a plot hole in itself, to be honest.
I care literally zero about Dorne, this one less stellar storyline doesn't ruin the show for me. But "those who didn't like Dorne simply didn't get it" is such a weak ass argument.
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Post by nikma on Aug 2, 2017 18:55:19 GMT -5
But I don't see what was contradictory there. It was like saying that Thorne wasn't loyal to the NW because he killed lord commander. As Ellaria said Doran for them wasn't even real Dornish, he was too weak. There are many examples in history where people removed leaders that lost legitimacy. He betrayed Dorne and Martells.
In my own country king was murdered and replaced and that didn't lead to any civil war. The king wasn't popular at all, so it was easy for the nation to accept the change.
I never said that those who didn't like Dorne didn't get it, I said those who didn't understand why killing Doran in the context of the show makes sense simply didn't get it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 19:51:17 GMT -5
So...how bout them dragons.
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alcasinoroyale
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 2, 2017 19:53:33 GMT -5
So...how bout them dragons. Jon and Davos were really scared shitless.
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 2, 2017 20:01:03 GMT -5
The Highgarden scene was about Olenna. Not blood and guts and "epic battlez". This was about the characters of Olenna and Jaime. Having a big bloody battle would have cheapened it IMO. I liked that they left it off screen, and took the time to give Olenna a proper farewell. Cheapened it? Really? Like the battle of the bastards cheapened Sansa's reckoning and the return of the Starks to Winterfell? Did the battle of the bastards cheapen the emotion, dramatic effect or interpersonal relationships and scenes of the characters? I believe Cersei had some great moments there, like Cersie and Sansa in the red keep? Or Tyrions speech, Joff the Coward, Cersei and Lancel, The arrival of Tywin in the throne room just Cersei is about to kill herself and Tommen, the Hound and Bronn, the Hound and Sansa, the Hound and Fire, Stannis and defeat, Pod saving Tyrion? In fact those battles high tended the dramatic tension, and emotion. The battles may look cool but that is not why they do them, and that's not why Martin writes them. The battle of the wall is about Jon and the Wildlings and Yiggy. Thats the tragic payoff. The arrival Stannis, is an emotional payoff. Hardhome is not an out the battle but the foreboding future. The battle of the Kraken, what's the payoff? Theon, Yara, and Euron. They often cut short or pass over many of the battles, but when it comes to brass tax there is a reason they are generally the seasons climax, and it's not about blood and guts, it's about emotion, and relationships, it can setup the the next season, end arcs and begin new ones. So really I could not disagree more, and the shows history stands for itself. YOu know the one of the bloodiest scenes in the entire series is not a battle, it's the red wedding. Sometimes blood and guts, and battles work. The battle the Kraken is emotional for Theon and Yara, tragic in many ways and look what it set up. These battles seem to have their place, emotion, plots, and purpose more than you think. Pretty sure they have deminished any character moments or plot lines either.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 2, 2017 20:26:52 GMT -5
Sooo here's a thing ...
Some of us were wondering why Cersei's hair is still so short while Tyene's grew from the same short cut down to her shoulders. Looks like the speculation that she's purposely cutting it short now could be true:
This hint from Cogman, along with the handmaidens all wearing the same haircut and 'uniform' (they've always done that in earlier seasons as well) has me convinced Cersei's continuing to cut it. What do you think?
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 2, 2017 20:30:19 GMT -5
Sooo here's a thing ... Some of us were wondering why Cersei's hair is still so short while Tyene's grew from the same short cut down to her shoulders. Looks like the speculation that she's purposely cutting it short now could be true: This hint from Cogman, along with the handmaidens all wearing the same haircut and 'uniform' (they've always done that in earlier seasons as well) has me convinced Cersei's continuing to cut it. What do you think? Nice find! I hope she "chooses" a new hairstyle next year though lol
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 2, 2017 20:32:08 GMT -5
Nice find! I hope she "chooses" a new hairstyle next year though lol What, you don't adore "the turnip" as Lena calls it?!
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 2, 2017 20:43:15 GMT -5
More generally meme-ified critiques of anything bug me. Like the way people are misinterpreting what Bran says to Sansa in the Godswood as if he didn't understand her pain. He was offering his condolences to her. She was disturbed because he knew things he couldn't possibly know not because he was being tasteless. And yet you look at reddit and what do you see... Bran is so emotionally scarred himself by what he's seen and what lies ahead, losing Hodor and Summer, that he's just completely stoic. It becomes a lot for one to process and he knows how dark that world is. So I agree, even if his condolences didn't sound genuine or heartwarming, they still were. It's a good point he's detatched, they could play up his disconnect to humanity. But as I said earlier I think they went to far with the monotone. His moments with Sansa play on his detachment, he doesn't think or realize to hug her back, he does not identify himself as a person but the three eyed Raven. So yeah you could say he is trying to console her but currently can't emotionally interact do to a PTSD driven detachment. Though given given some first hand experience with that matter, I would still like to see some emotion from him, their are usually triggers. The emotion does not go away it just builds up and eventually a trigger releases it. You also tend to know you are detatched but the fear of your own emotions represses them. I general though you will find them leaking at times which is when you tend to repress them back, I guess that's what I would of liked to see with Bran when Sansa was walking away, a moment where he knows that didn't go as intended bt instead of reaching out he pulls back. I know I don't think he meant to hurt her. That bugs me that people would think that, anyone who does has little experience with Vets who have been to war. Though sometimes you do deliberatly hurt people, mostly because they sort of represent emotional triggers and it's hard to be around them so you try to push them away. So they could go that way as well but it's harder to relate than just simple detachment sometimes, though it can be done. I mean honestly I have been there, Especially with family, so maybe I just have a different reaction to it than most. Sometimes there are things you can identify with that you just don't want to, not the three eyed Raven part. Never thought I was a mutated bird. I wonder if they go down that road, if Ghost acts as a trigger for him. That would be kind of interesting. Reminds him of Summer and Bloodraven, and weirwood trees. Or maybe it would act as something he feels safe around. Could be both.
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